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Warboss Gutrip wrote:So after flicking through the codex, I had a thought for a new build of army, which I think I will call a 'sinkhole' (its soooo the next leafblower, and will dominate the META). It is basically an archon with a WWP, who joins a squad of harlies with a shadowseer. The idea is, the rest of the list is built to kill stuff, and 2d6x2" makes the harlies un-alpha-strike-able. The harlies and archon walk to the middle of the board, and unleash hell on turn 3/4, when the whole army comes out of the portal.

Anyone got any ideas on other units to use? It's similar to ninja tau, but better, and would be funny in casual games. Also good for avoiding alpha strikes. I am looking at units that will come from the portal, wondering if anyone has any ideas.

lol, how do you even read your books?

I can't understand how people can twist RAW around this much.

HERO wrote:What did you guys have in mind for Scourge conversions?

The cheapest, easiest way I've come up with is a box of warriors and 2 boxes of harpy wings from fantasy. I've seen people talking about using nids gargoyles wings. Probably About the same price.

padixon wrote:I'm a LONG time DE player, and I will throw my hat into the ring on the debate on better units:

1. Ravager vs. Voidraven

Ravager hands down. Thats not to say I won't ever play the voidraven (especially in higher point games), but of all the years I've been playing the DE, the Ravager has never let me down. It consistently pops vehicles from the lowly Rhino to the Land Raider with nearly equal ease. I usually ran 2 with all diszes, and 1 all DLs. I LOVE my Ravagers because they were RELIABLE and CHEAP. The Voidraven does look nice though and comes with the nicer Str 9 guns just incase you face Necrons. Plus its missiles make the vehicle both anti-vehicle and anti-troop. But at its expense (with missiles) screams shoot me turn 1 and then we lose out on 200 points instead of a 145 pt FULLY UPGRADED reliable Ravager (which is just about the same cost as a naked Voidraven). Plus I tend to always miss one shot, so I would rather take 2 Str 8 lance shots over 1 Str 9 lance shot anyday.

personally I'd go with Razorwing over either. I has 2 darklances, 4 missiles S6 large blast (included in base cost) and a splinter rifle that can be upgraded to a cannon. Sure you're giving up armor, but at the ranges you're firing away at (36-48), anything that can hit you wasn't gonna care that you had armor 11 instead of 10.

Emmel Eitch wrote:

padixon wrote: Sure you're giving up armor, but at the ranges you're firing away at (36-48), anything that can hit you wasn't gonna care that you had armor 11 instead of 10.

true true

@Hero - I had a flick through the book. I didn't twist raw or anything, I scanned through the book looking for units I want to use. Sorry if you think I'm stupid for not reading the specifics, but I had limited time to read so I just picked up units that look fun. Even if my current ideas don't work, if anyone has ideas on how to make this work, I would love to hear it.

And fwiw, I am a player who plays strictly by the rules. I was just speculating, no need to be mean.

Voidraven >>>> Raveger

Voidraven is not open-topped has way more options and i would take 1 mine and 2 str 9 lances any day over a open-topped ravager.

Nulipuli2 wrote:Voidraven >>>> Raveger

Voidraven is not open-topped has way more options and i would take 1 mine and 2 str 9 lances any day over a open-topped ravager.

The open top is a good argument against the ravager. However, I'll still be taking the ravagers. They work fine in the old dex for what they're used for and they're cheap. No blast dissy's anymore, but what they have is still effective.

I just bought three Ravagers in anticipation of my new DE army, so I'll be using at least 1 or 2 for a bit

I like the idea of Ravagers. They're simple. Move 12" - shoot everything - with very simple options of anti-tank or anti-troop.

Magnalon wrote:I like the idea of Ravagers. They're simple. Move 12" - shoot everything - with very simple options of anti-tank or anti-troop.

The Razorwing and voidraven can also shoot everything after a 12" move.
In the Razorzing's case, I'm not sure if you'd want to fire all 4 missiles, 2 darklances, and the splinter rifle/cannon all at the same time, but you could if you wanted too....

Well, I guess I meant that it still has the ability to fire everything, and they're all the same type of weapon (ie all lances) - it makes targetting simple, and they serve their purpose for a specified list.

Magnalon wrote:Well, I guess I meant that it still has the ability to fire everything, and they're all the same type of weapon (ie all lances) - it makes targetting simple, and they serve their purpose for a specified list.

And that makes sense when you consider it can only shoot at one thing per turn.
The converse for me is that having the ability to affect two kinds of targets, vehicles and infantry, from the same model seems worth the small point difference between the two. And if you were going to buy the deep strike option on the Ravager, the point difference shrinks as the raven has that built in for free.

Everyone's mileage will vary, but for me personally you'll have a hard time talking me out of having large blast weapons.

Emmel Eitch wrote:

Magnalon wrote:Well, I guess I meant that it still has the ability to fire everything, and they're all the same type of weapon (ie all lances) - it makes targetting simple, and they serve their purpose for a specified list.

And that makes sense when you consider it can only shoot at one thing per turn.
The converse for me is that having the ability to affect two kinds of targets, vehicles and infantry, from the same model seems worth the small point difference between the two. And if you were going to buy the deep strike option on the Ravager, the point difference shrinks as the raven has that built in for free.

Everyone's mileage will vary, but for me personally you'll have a hard time talking me out of having large blast weapons.

I think this whole recent discussion reveals just how well written the new book is, the fact you even have a non consensus on which is the stronger unit...

I can see the uses of all the heavy choices :

Ravager is old reliable
*comes with more battlefield interacting upgrade possibilities
*Is super efficient points wise
*Good *enough* firepower

However, I don't believe it's a clear winner.

The Razorwing Jet-fighter is seems like it's better suited by ripping it's Lances off, and swapping in Disintegrators, upgrading the splinter rifle to a cannon and keeping the missiles standard. I think the potential for infantry havoc outweighs it's 35/65 stock load out of sorta anti-tank, mostly anti infantry. Using Disintegrators also means that once your heavy targets are destroyed, you aren't sitting on two ineffectual anti tank weapons.

While the Jet-fighter is tempting, I think the Void Raven is the best choice for a few reasons. The difference from armor 10 to 11 is more dramatic than is being given credit.

I know everyone can math-hammer these days, but a handy table for reference, assuming no flicker field or cover save and using the common long range anti-tank weapons. (Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Auto Cannon)

Penetrating Hits
Jet-Fighter
Strength 9 versus armor 10 - 84%
Strength 8 versus armor 10 - 68%
Strength 7 versus armor 10 - 52%

Void Raven
Strength 9 versus armor 11 - 68%
Strength 8 versus armor 11 - 52%
Strength 7 versus armor 11 - 36%

Glancing Hits
Jet-Fighter
Strength 9 versus armor 10 - Auto
Strength 8 versus armor 10 - 84%
Strength 7 versus armor 10 - 68%

Void Raven
Strength 9 versus armor 11 - 84%
Strength 8 versus armor 11 - 68%
Strength 7 versus armor 11 - 52%

I would say that the armor difference meaning a Lascannon isn't an auto result is a big enough factor, never-mind the fact that the only long range weapons you see in high quantity (Missiles/Auto Cannons) are not automatic death sentences on the Void Raven.

The 36 inch move is also a pretty steep advantage in certain missions, last minute contests. Free deep strike as pointed out above,

Personally, between my other slots I will have troops covered so I would prefer my anti tank to be effective. I've used dark lances for years, and while efficient choices way back when, I think the advantages of the Strength 9 lance outweigh having another lance and opening your top up. I don't believe Ravagers are worth the points as either a triple Lance platform or Disintegrator platform unless used naked, or taking advantage of their other upgrades to the point where you bring them up to cost of the fliers.

I think the Jet-Fighter and Raven do anti-tank/anti infantry better, unless in small points games.

Defiler wrote:The Razorwing Jet-fighter is seems like it's better suited by ripping it's Lances off, and swapping in Disintegrators, upgrading the splinter rifle to a cannon and keeping the missiles standard. I think the potential for infantry havoc outweighs it's 35/65 stock load out of sorta anti-tank, mostly anti infantry. Using Disintegrators also means that once your heavy targets are destroyed, you aren't sitting on two ineffectual anti tank weapons.

Not sure the Razorwing or the Void Raven have options for swapping out DLs for Dissies like the ravager and raider do. God help your opponent if they do though. 6 poison shots and 6 Ap2 shots combines with 4 stock large blast missiles would mean the death of any infantry you could name. Even with out that option, you're only down 4 AP2 shots, and they go up from str 5 to str 8.

Emmel Eitch wrote:

Defiler wrote:The Razorwing Jet-fighter is seems like it's better suited by ripping it's Lances off, and swapping in Disintegrators, upgrading the splinter rifle to a cannon and keeping the missiles standard. I think the potential for infantry havoc outweighs it's 35/65 stock load out of sorta anti-tank, mostly anti infantry. Using Disintegrators also means that once your heavy targets are destroyed, you aren't sitting on two ineffectual anti tank weapons.

Not sure the Razorwing or the Void Raven have options for swapping out DLs for Dissies like the ravager and raider do. God help your opponent if they do though. 6 poison shots and 6 Ap2 shots combines with 4 stock large blast missiles would mean the death of any infantry you could name. Even with out that option, you're only down 4 AP2 shots, and they go up from str 5 to str 8.

The Razorwing can take Dissies instead of it's two dark lances for free, bringing it's potential to 2 Disintegrators, 1 Splinter Cannon for 10 points, and 4 Monoscythe Missiles.

The Void Raven can take up to four missiles, but at that point you're looking at around 200 points with a nightshield and flicker field. I think you only buy it for the reliability of the two strength 9 Void Lances.
The void mine is a random bonus

Anyone know what ghostplate armour does?

InventionThirteen wrote:Anyone know what ghostplate armour does?

4+ armor, 6+ invo

So we can't start threads concerning DE tactics yet so:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/324561.page

How can DE stand a chance?

Defiler wrote:The Razorwing can take Dissies instead of it's two dark lances for free, bringing it's potential to 2 Disintegrators, 1 Splinter Cannon for 10 points, and 4 Monoscythe Missiles.

Yep, this is true, and a great use of the Razorwing. THAT is some solid anti-personnel firepower.

6 dissie shots
6 splinter cannon shots
4 missiles

Should be able to deal some significant damage on an infantry unit or two. 175 pts with both fields.

Budzerker wrote:So we can't start threads concerning DE tactics yet so:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/324561.page

How can DE stand a chance?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/323069.page

Check out this batrep Bud.

Here are some things that are new to DE in this book that do well against IG.

Trueborn. Most of what is new about trueborn is that the blaster is now 18" range. The warriors lost one blaster, but this elite unit doubled the amount of blasters that can be taken. Moving a raider or venom 12" disembarking 2.9" from the prow, and then shooting your front loaded 18" blaster shots is a strong new strategy. That all totals up to just under 33" threat range, which is good enough to start them off-table in any game where you lost the roll to go first.

Reavers. 36" turbo boost and a new gun. Thats really all there is to talk about here. There is a picture in that batrep showing the initial position of a reaver unit coming from reserve from a long table edge. When an enemy army deploys flat and wide against you, turbo boosting to one flank can curtail enemy shooting substantially. Short range special weapons get outranged, sponson weapons and infantry weapons get their LOS blocked by friendly units, and the 3+ cover save does the rest.

Flickerfields. Ravagers moving 12", shooting all three dark lances, and getting a 5++ are all improvements over the last version. And those improvements came with zero increase in cost (well yu have to pay a reasonable amount of points for the flickerfield) So the ravagers can move 12" onto the table, and shoot out to 36", now covering the entire span of the table unlike before, making them better from reserve. With the faster speed and the long range, they are able to arrive in an unpredictable location, and use their weapons to shake, stun or kill only the things that have the range or speed to react to their arrival.

Wracks. This one is the biggest one, and easily hard to notice right away. The biggest gripe from active dark eldar players wasn't raider survivability or firepower. It was their inability to hold an objective. In that batrep I laid out a heavy flamer template on top of 4 wracks as a chimera tank shocked to contest an objective. This was my go-to dark eldar beating move before, both wyches and warriors melted very quickly to a souffle. That one heavy flamer merely killed a single wrack and then was quickly dispatched by a nearby ravager.

Haemonculi deserve a mention too. A DIRT cheap HQ option with a flamer that has a 50/50 shot of ignoring both cover and armor on space marines, and gives at least FNP to whichever unit he joins is stellar.

All of these things add up to close the gap significantly in this previously dismal matchup.

Hope that helped

Just wanting some tips on my new DE list. Started playing DE in 2001 at 15, played for about 2 years then stopped. Hearing they've re-emerged 7 years later I'm learning the game all over again, so please, be gentle.
EDIT: I probably should mention, the purpose of this list is just something for general play, not specific opponents. I want a well structured base to get me back into the game and start winning some matches.

Can't wait to get these models on the field.
HQ
3x Haemonc's
Elites
Squad 1
9 x Incubi
- Klavex with Onslaught
- Raider w. Flickerfield
Fast
Squad 1
9 x Reavers
- 3 Heat Lance
- 3 Grav Talons
Troops
Squad 1
10 x Warriors
- 1 Splinter Cannon
- Raider w. Flicker Field and Splinter Racks
Squad 2
10 x Warriors
- 1 Splinter Cannon
- Raider w. Flicker Field and Splinter Racks
Squad 3
10 x Warriors
- 1 Splinter Cannon
- Raider w. Flicker Field and Splinter Racks
Squad 4
10 x Wracks
Squad 5
10 x Wracks
Heavy
1 x Talos
- T/L Liquifier

Comes in at roughly 1500 (not sure on T/L Liquifier pts cost...)
Plan is to throw 2 Haemonculous in with a squad of wracks each and them and the Talos make their way across the field carefully, giving the enemy something to worry about while the raiders and bikes bite them in the flank. I'd throw a Haemonculous on the Incubi Raider for a free pain token when they disembark and split so the Inc's can do their run move and then hopefully assault.

Anyway, that's the plan. Smoke that in your pipe and stick it.
Feedback appreciated.
Hurrdurr.

There's no real reason to have the talos and wracks walking.

Both units are only really good in hand to hand, so I would suggest getting there quicker. Although it would be nice if most opponents focus fire on them instead of the raiders, I don't see many people making that mistake. I'd shoot the target skimming 12" at me with a dark lance and incubi over the targets trudging across the board every time.

Also, I would take the chain flail (I think that's what it was called) on the Talos instead of the liquifier guns. Picking the highest of 2d6 as opposed to a straight 1d6 adds a world of consistency. I know liquifier guns are awesome, but so is combat resolution.

Find the points to give the wracks raiders so they can make assault, and give them liquifier guns. Stick a webway portal on a spare haemonculus (maybe the one with the incubi who was leaving anyway?) and pop it first turn after he flies across the board in a raider. Have the talos come in through that. (would be even better if you could swing a second talos to make the webway portal a bit more justified, but it's the best way to that model across the board) If you don't like the webway, I might suggest dropping the talos. Not great trudging across the board, lagging behind such a mobile army.

Also, for the splinter rack spam, trueborn are just better. You get more shots out of them. I know they're not scoring, but you have a lot of scoring units in that list, and warriors don't pull their weight as much as they used to. (I'm very sorry to say, I might add) So dropping a warrior squad or two might not be terrible.

Ok, took your advice under consideration. In terms of wiggle room for points and doing what I want this army to do, I scrapped the Talos. I Like how WWP work, but I figure Trueborn with a hail of splinter is better points for speed and power.
I didn't give the Trueborn Racks as they have enough shots anyway.
Let me Know what you think.

HQ
3x Haemonc's
Elites
Squad 1
9 x Incubi
- Klavex with Onslaught
- Raider w. Flickerfield
Elite 2
6 x Trueborn
- 4 x Splinter Cannon
- Raider w. Flicker Field
Elite 3
6 x Trueborn
- 4 x Splinter Cannon
- Raider w. Flicker Field
Fast
Squad 1
9 x Reavers
- 3 Heat Lance
- 3 Grav Talons
Troops
Squad 1
10 x Warriors
- Raider w. Flicker Field
Squad 3
9 x Wracks
- 1x Liquifier
- Raider w. Flickerfield
Squad 4
9 x Wracks
- 1x Liquifier
- Raider w. Flickerfield

1501 Pts if my assumption for Haemonc's cost is correct.

I would save some points on your Incubi. Maybe go with 5 led by a klavex. Incubi are excellent for their role and will chew up troops of all kinds.

what is it that splinter racks do? i saw them and thought wtf?
and does anybody agree that running an Archon with Soul trap, Husk blade, djin blade, combat drugs and a shadow field is going to be the nastiest combo ever
7 attacks on the charge that are power weapon hits with ID cant wait till january when i can afford an army

I believe they allow splinter weapons being fired by the embarked unit to be re-rolled.

aka_mythos wrote:I believe they allow splinter weapons being fired by the embarked unit to be re-rolled.

This sounds very nice. As i plan to be using a fair few kabalite warrior raider squads myself. Once I have my new Archon fielded I'm thinking of keeping a kill tally on him .

aka_mythos wrote:I believe they allow splinter weapons being fired by the embarked unit to be re-rolled.

It allows splinter pistols and splinter rifles to get re-rolls. It would be awesome, nasty, cool, and just wrong if all splinter wepons re-rolled - imagine a sguad of Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons and the rest with (i forgot the name but the Assault 3 gun that all Trueborn can upgrade to)

Rymafyr wrote:I would save some points on your Incubi. Maybe go with 5 led by a klavex. Incubi are excellent for their role and will chew up troops of all kinds.

I agree with this.

7 incubi are going to annihilate whatever you put them into. (with a very few exceptions, in which case 10 probably wouldn't have helped you) And, more often than not, you don't want to wipe the squad you charge on your turn anyway. You want to do it on their turn.

I'd use the extra points to give the trueborn splinter racks. The fact that they have more shots makes the racks even more efficient. They're the same amount of points, and they potentially allow more rerolls.

smithmyster666 wrote:and does anybody agree that running an Archon with Soul trap, Husk blade, djin blade, combat drugs and a shadow field is going to be the nastiest combo ever
7 attacks on the charge that are power weapon hits with ID cant wait till january when i can afford an army

That would probably be pretty nasty if not for 4 things.

1. Expensive. Sure, you do loads of damage, but you pay for it.
2. You've got a chance of killing yourself. Doubles with those extra attacks means a chance to insta-death yourself.
3. Low strength. You're only strength 3.
4. Most importantly, multiple special weapons don't work like that. You get to choose whether you're fighting with either the djin blade for the +2 attacks or the huskblade for the instant death, at the start of each round of combat (or start of the entire combat and stick with them or something like that), but you don't get both effects.

Mekboy wrote:4. Most importantly, multiple special weapons don't work like that. You get to choose whether you're fighting with either the djin blade for the +2 attacks or the huskblade for the instant death, at the start of each round of combat (or start of the entire combat and stick with them or something like that), but you don't get both effects.

I agree it's too expensive, and you're strength 3.

And I'm familiar with the main rulebook rule about having to choose a special close combat weapon.

But I remember the djinn blade having some wording like, "So long as you are equipped with the djinn blade..." in reference to the two additional attacks. So, I think there is a RAW argument for getting the attacks without actually using the blade. But I am working off memory here so I could be totally off.