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I know they're about 3000, but most as said before, are in combat; so they probs can really only send out a squad.

There have been recent bits of fiction to suggest that the first Grey Knights were made up of the few remaining survivors of the Traitor Legions loyal to the Emperor, the rest killed at the Istvaan Massacre or fallen to Chaos. It would make sense that the Grey Knights were forged from the few marines to be directly exposed to the whisperings of the Ruinous Powers and able to come away unscathed and loyal to Humanity.

It would also make sense that the Grey Knights would follow the Emperor's original decree that he not be viewed as a God, and that humanity should follow the path of reason rather than believing in the supernatural. This would make sense in either origin of the Knights, either derived right from the Emperor or a fusion of the seed of the loyal Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, et al.

Personally I like that idea. It means that even amongst the traitor legions, there were those who remained pure and unsullied. It means that even amongst the fanatically loyal super monks they have enough freedom of will and imagination to choose their own fate, rather than be led to the slaughter because of their charismatic Primarch. I hope that they either leave their origins a mystery or confirm that they were derived in this way.

Puscifer wrote:

Nicorex wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."

Thousand Sons seems to be the obvious awnser here.

Why Thousand Sons???

Just because the entire army is psychic, doesn't mean that it was taken from the Thousand Son genestock.

Garro is generally recognised as either the first =I= or the the first GK. He was a Death Guard, yet you don't really see their traits in the GK either. It's tough to see where the Geneseed comes from other than from the Emperor himself, which has been mentioned in several books over the last 20+ years.

Occams Razor: You have a bunch of psycic geneseed. You want to make a new all psyker army. You use the avalable stock on hand.
In Fluff what two armys do all basic troops have some kind of psycic ability? T-Sons and GK's. Since GK's came after T-Sons, the leap of logic is not a difficult one. So you take the T-Sons geenseed stock and rework it a bit and there you go Grey Knights! The rumor does say though its a traitorious fuision, so throw in some Iron Warrior (for their tech ability), DG (for their fortitude), World Eater (for CC mastery) and you are all set with a new Ubar geneseed. Psycic tech savy tough CC monsters. You could replace Iron warriors with Imperial Fist and WE with BA though and get the same thing. But you still need the T-Sons for the psycic connection.

-The Blade of Antwyr: Close Combat Weapon, but the turn his unit GETS assaulted they gain Furious Charge and re-roll all failed to hit rolls for that Assault Phase

Wow, so enemies get so upset by the fluff **** that is a GK wielding a daemon weapon that they get Furious charge?

Nicorex wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

Nicorex wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."

Thousand Sons seems to be the obvious awnser here.

Why Thousand Sons???

Just because the entire army is psychic, doesn't mean that it was taken from the Thousand Son genestock.

Garro is generally recognised as either the first =I= or the the first GK. He was a Death Guard, yet you don't really see their traits in the GK either. It's tough to see where the Geneseed comes from other than from the Emperor himself, which has been mentioned in several books over the last 20+ years.

Yes.
In Fluff what two armys do all basic troops have some kind of psycic ability? T-Sons and GK's. So you take the T-Sons geenseed stock and rework it a bit and there you go Grey Knights! The rumor does say though its a traitorious fuision, so throw in some Iron Warrior (for their tech ability), DG (for their fortitude), World Eater (for CC mastery) and you are all set with a new Ubar geneseed. Psycic tech savy tough CC monsters. You could replace Iron warriors with Imperial Fist and WE with BA though and get the same thing. But you still need the T-Sons for the psycic connection.

Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.

raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.

Since most recuits are taken in pre or low teens(as with all SM Chapters). The psyker ability is usally not yet known or manifested itself. During testing the spark for it is found and the recuit is sent on for more testing and trainning to heighten these abilitys. If you take a psycicly prone recuit then jam some gene seed in them that helps expand that ability what do think would happen? Ohh and Hey look who has really good gene seend when you want to boost the psykic ability of a base human? T-Sons agin is the logical and really only awnser.

raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.

This.

bhsman wrote:

shrike wrote:but this game is turning into

So what you're saying is that you have no idea what you're talking about?

I know what I'm talking about- the past 2 loyalist codexes have deepstriking land raiders, dreadnoughts hanging onto flying bricks, space marines riding wolves, MC stats on a 25mm base, and canis WOLFborn of the space WOLVES, wielding WOLF claws and riding a WOLF, backed up by thunderWOLF cavalry. Now there's another loyalist codex with armoured armoured armoured armour, more flying bricks, and even a SC that lets you take 2W terminators as troops. And none of this is at all cheesy?

sourclams wrote:

raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.

This is wong

There I fixed it for you. Just kidding.
Let look at this logicly in fluff. First you have to find a pre-Teen that has the psykic gene in them. Then they have to undergo all the same trials and testing to become a Standard SM recuit. From the fluff we know that mabye one or two in a hundred make it past this part. But lets be generous and say its 5. Now they have to undergo the surgerey and impantation of the genenseed and extra organs. The fluff says that we lose even more recuits in this phase of the trials. So agin being gernerous lets say 3 make it this far. Then its off to the Libraians to test and train and attempt to master their psykic abilitys. Fluff there says that many dont make it here, because they cant learn control of their powers. Well you cant have a Super enhanced psyker running around lose can you, so your gona have to put him down. Now we have a single Psyker recuit thats ready to take on the mantle of a PAGK.

So in this situation, what geneseed would you use? Ultramarine? I dont think so. They have a stable and reliable geneseed but you need something with a bit of extra oomph to it. Well lookie here we have this whole big vat of geneseed that helps enhance and control psykic abilitys built in. Mabye we shouldnt use it though. The last guys who did went bad. Well they didnt really go bad they were sortof foreced to go bad to survive after their boss made a bad decision and their Grand Dad decided to kill them for it. So I bet if we monitor these new guys a bit more and mabye keep their Gramps from trying to kill them, I bet they would work out just fine.

Nicorex wrote:

sourclams wrote:

raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.

This is wong

There I fixed it for you. Just kidding.
Let look at this logicly in fluff. First you have to find a pre-Teen that has the psykic gene in them. Then they have to undergo all the same trials and testing to become a Standard SM recuit. From the fluff we know that mabye one or two in a hundred make it past this part. But lets be generous and say its 5. Now they have to undergo the surgerey and impantation of the genenseed and extra organs. The fluff says that we lose even more recuits in this phase of the trials. So agin being gernerous lets say 3 make it this far. Then its off to the Libraians to test and train and attempt to master their psykic abilitys. Fluff there says that many dont make it here, because they cant learn control of their powers. Well you cant have a Super enhanced psyker running around lose can you, so your gona have to put him down. Now we have a single Psyker recuit thats ready to take on the mantle of a PAGK.

So in this situation, what geneseed would you use? Ultramarine? I dont think so. They have a stable and reliable geneseed but you need something with a bit of extra oomph to it. Well lookie here we have this whole big vat of geneseed that helps enhance and control psykic abilitys built in. Mabye we shouldnt use it though. The last guys who did went bad. Well they didnt really go bad they were sortof foreced to go bad to survive after their boss made a bad decision and their Grand Dad decided to kill them for it. So I bet if we monitor these new guys a bit more and mabye keep their Gramps from trying to kill them, I bet they would work out just fine.

^ this.

shrike wrote:

Nicorex wrote:

sourclams wrote:

raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.

This is wong

There I fixed it for you. Just kidding.
Let look at this logicly in fluff. First you have to find a pre-Teen that has the psykic gene in them. Then they have to undergo all the same trials and testing to become a Standard SM recuit. From the fluff we know that mabye one or two in a hundred make it past this part. But lets be generous and say its 5. Now they have to undergo the surgerey and impantation of the genenseed and extra organs. The fluff says that we lose even more recuits in this phase of the trials. So agin being gernerous lets say 3 make it this far. Then its off to the Libraians to test and train and attempt to master their psykic abilitys. Fluff there says that many dont make it here, because they cant learn control of their powers. Well you cant have a Super enhanced psyker running around lose can you, so your gona have to put him down. Now we have a single Psyker recuit thats ready to take on the mantle of a PAGK.

So in this situation, what geneseed would you use? Ultramarine? I dont think so. They have a stable and reliable geneseed but you need something with a bit of extra oomph to it. Well lookie here we have this whole big vat of geneseed that helps enhance and control psykic abilitys built in. Mabye we shouldnt use it though. The last guys who did went bad. Well they didnt really go bad they were sortof foreced to go bad to survive after their boss made a bad decision and their Grand Dad decided to kill them for it. So I bet if we monitor these new guys a bit more and mabye keep their Gramps from trying to kill them, I bet they would work out just fine.

^ this.

Negative. Not "This." Grey Knights do not need to be monitored. They are the watchers on the walls, the light in the darkness, the shield that guards the realms of men. They are not watched, they are the eternally vigilant. They are the Hammer of His Divine Retribution. They are the Grey Knights.

...And They Shall Know No Fear.

Sorry - I for one cannot agree with the Thousand Sons Gene being used for the GK.

1) Their Gene was the most unstable and prone to mutation above all others.
2) GK recruit powerful psykers into their ranks as mentioned above.
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GK IMO.

shrike wrote:

bhsman wrote:

shrike wrote:but this game is turning into

So what you're saying is that you have no idea what you're talking about?

I know what I'm talking about- the past 2 loyalist codexes have deepstriking land raiders, dreadnoughts hanging onto flying bricks, space marines riding wolves, MC stats on a 25mm base, and canis WOLFborn of the space WOLVES, wielding WOLF claws and riding a WOLF, backed up by thunderWOLF cavalry. Now there's another loyalist codex with armoured armoured armoured armour, more flying bricks, and even a SC that lets you take 2W terminators as troops. And none of this is at all cheesy?

depends on which definition of the word cheesy you're actually using.. the version that means "corny"/"in bad taste" or the version that means "overpowered"/"unbalanced"? the former? definitely. there is no defending blood angels with blood fists or using the word "wolf" more than once in a unit description (space wolf wolf lord on a thunderwolf with wolf claws and wolf talisman). the latter? not so much. the blood angel codex is not OP and, while the space wolf one is almost all postive in its changes, it's still not gamebreaking. but, hey, every new release thread needs its chicken little so go wild!

Puscifer wrote:
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GK IMO.

I think we get closer to the truth behind the origins of the GK geneseed.

Its not impossible to merge, if we consider the GK a last gift to mankind from the creator of the Primarchs and space marines himself.

ther is a big hint in the Garro audio books about the origins

Puscifer wrote:
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GK IMO.

Why are people saying the TS, We know that the Emperor and Death Guard contributed to the Geneseed, so why do we need the TS's when we know the Emperor is a Psyker, would easily explain the increase in the psychic abilities in the already psychic recruits.

FM Ninja 048 wrote:ther is a big hint in the Garro audio books about the origins

Spoiler:

In oath of moment Garro is sent to Calth to pick up an ex-librarian Ultra, he ends up having to use his powers in fromt of other Ultras and is shunned by them Garro takes him away to serve the emporer...

also in the book garro is using unmarked GREY armour...

so maby grey knights are a mix of psykers from all the legions blended into perfection by the big E

That makes perfect sense and fits the fluff. So effectively Garro was the first above all others.

This is stupid >:C Dreadknights are going to just murder my Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. I had enough problems fighting the Avatar of Khaine and C'tans already.

1hadhq wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GK IMO.

I think we get closer to the truth behind the origins of the GK geneseed.

Its not impossible to merge, if we consider the GK a last gift to mankind from the creator of the Primarchs and space marines himself.

Why not? Chapters and I bet the original Legions have/had to submit Geneseed both for testing and storage back to Terra(well Mars actually but you know what I mean). Dollars to doughnuts there are vats of Original 20 Legion geneseed sitting around in a cooler somewhere. Plus The Emperor made all this stuff in the first place. Dont you think he kept some smaples of his work, incase he needed to make a few more? Its alot easyer making something when you already have the blueprints and a sample sitting there, than starting agin from scratch.

T-Sons did not FALL to taint of Chaos. T-Sons where driven to Chaos just to survive the Extreamly Over the top punishment, their Gramps dropped on them when their Dad broke Gramps Toy. Im just trying to be clear here. You have a geneseed that has an inherant psykic mastery built in. You want to make a whole new army or psykic masters. Wouldnt it be logical to use that material? DG are not know for their over abundance of psykers, so mabye they are not the geneseed to base this new army on.
I dont remember Garro have any psykic powers.
Mabye He does start the GK's, mabye he does become the first GrandMaster. I dont know and wont untill the new codex and its retconned fluff comes out. But the rumor said GK's were based on traitor geneseed. The best traitor(or any loyalist marine for that matter) geneseed to help in the creation of a Psyker army would be T-Sons.

Would be funny to have a 900 pt unit of Paladins

10x paladins each with warding staves + apothecary for FNP in addition to other random upgrades

2+ invul with 4+ fnp, 2 wounds and wound allocation insanity! woo.. Put a librarian in there with Mindbades and might of titan so you could be S6 +2d6 armor pen and the enemy is at -1T

All I gotta say is once people get their hands on the official copy they'll agree that this codex might as well be renamed "Codex: Why the hell do normal space marines exist? "

BA and SW do certain things much better... but wow this GK book does *everything* better

If youre worried about anti tank you can take henchmen and equip them with 12 melta guns.. FOR less than the cost of a *single* tactical squad

Yes, T-sons could be part of the mix.

The tithe is installed after Heresy, when the effects of the uncontrolled usage of geneseed are known.
Speeding up the creation process had elevated those into the Legions that never should have become Space Marines.
Now, tightening the control was neccessary.

So we got geneseed, a rumor and GW calling GK a gift of Big E...
Thus a possible connection between a codex release and BL audio-books is a good start.

I think Discipline, psi-power, martial prowess and resilience are part of the ingredients to create GK's.

So: T-son + DG = psi with less mutation, WE for CC and UM for control. Maybe IW and or EC too. Unlikely to have AL , NL or WB inside.

shrike wrote:
I know what I'm talking about- the past 2 loyalist codexes have deepstriking land raiders, dreadnoughts hanging onto flying bricks, space marines riding wolves, MC stats on a 25mm base, and canis WOLFborn of the space WOLVES, wielding WOLF claws and riding a WOLF, backed up by thunderWOLF cavalry. Now there's another loyalist codex with armoured armoured armoured armour, more flying bricks, and even a SC that lets you take 2W terminators as troops. And none of this is at all cheesy?

I wouldn't call that "cheesy" I'd just call it stupid. Cheesy would indicate it's overpowered or undercosted in some way, and much of it pays a decent price. Deep striking Land Raiders are terrible, since they just get closer to the melta guns and power klaws. Thunderwolves are really good, but not broken, and their assumed size is big enough to get a good bead on them. Mephiston pays for his ludicrous stats, and even then he doesn't have an invulnerable save. Stormravens are pretty good on paper, but they're huge easy targets that will never get cover unless they're moving 24" a turn and losing out on much of their shooting. Even then, I'm sure those 2 wound Terminators will be expensive as hell.

Is this stuff silly? Yes. Is much of it stupid? Possibly. Is it all cheesy, broken, beardy, overpowered, etc? For the most part no.

TS fell to Chaos *well* befdore that. Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to save them from their mutation, which was always going to damn them.

They were actual Sorcerers, using the powers of daemons (the tutellaries) and they never realised.

Sorry - I for one cannot agree with the Thousand Sons Gene being used for the GK.

1) Their Gene was the most unstable and prone to mutation above all others.
2) GK recruit powerful psykers into their ranks as mentioned above.
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GK IMO.

This!
To even try to claim the GKs use TS geneseed is preposterous.

It wouldnt be allowed so close to the heresy with what was known the 1ksons legion did then.
As for the TS being driven to chaos that is BS, they fell long before that withough even knowing it, their psychic "companions" that helped them "develope" their psychic powers "fled" the second the Emperor came close and they were meddling with, communicating with and being manipulated almost at will by the ruinous powers.

What was so tragic with the whole TS deal was them not knowing they did wrong and the Emperor not explaining it but trusting Magnus would know better.


The GK recruit young promising psychers, end of the story. This is what´s been done and hinted in both in the fluff and in BL books.

As for SM librarians those are selected from promising recruits on black ships as well as found amongst normal recruits.
The sole purpose of the librarians during the selection process (aspirants before initiation) is to sense a psychic potential.
Very, very few SM develope late psychic abilities and so to say, catch the librarians of guard.

To maintains safety the process of finding the ones with psychic potential and measure their worth is done at start, not in the middle of the SM creation process. If this as the practice no SM chapters would ever survive due to the insane amount of geneseed and organs being wasted by giving them (and they are rare) to un screened initiates!!!!

As for the grey knights they are close to terra and have ties with the =I=, they can get whatever they want so finding physically powerful individuals who are ALREADY screened and tested for psychic potential is a piece of cake. They have direct access to the black ships as they arrive at terra and amongst those are hundreds of thousands of screened psychers just waiting to be allocated to the Imperium.

The recruitment mechanism for the GKs is even better then for the ultras if anything.



Claiming otherwise that TS are used as GKs is as silly as saying the modern day imperial fists actually use the death guard geneseed sicne they are so tough and stubbord, geez.

Alright boys, those pics leaked from heresy online we too small and too low quality, and frankly, we deserve better

I took some time to enlarge them and run some enhancement filters and levelling on them... it's not a miracle or anything, but this should be a bit easier to see -

Pyriel- wrote:

Sorry - I for one cannot agree with the Thousand Sons Gene being used for the GK.

1) Their Gene was the most unstable and prone to mutation above all others.
2) GK recruit powerful psykers into their ranks as mentioned above.
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GK IMO.

This!
To even try to claim the GKs use TS geneseed is preposterous.

The GK were founded by the surviving loyalists of traitor legions. This is heavily implied and there is no alternate implied in any background. The loyalists were composed of mostly Death Guard, with a few World Eaters and Thousand Sons amongst them.

More rumors less fluff arguments

Platuan4th wrote:

synack wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.

Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.

I don't understand this line of thinking?

The rule book says you must have 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you take Cortez, Henchmen become Troops. Yes they don't take up a force org slot, but they're still troops. Have two of the squads and you have a legal list. Or am I wrong?

Yes, you have an HQ and 2 Troops, but you don't have two Troops FOC SLOTS, which is what the BRB is actually telling you to do.

I can't see them counting as troops being the case, I could see it as the rule counting them as scoring, not a troops choice if they don't take up a FoC


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And besides, you don't just need two troops, the way it shows you is the two darkened boxes in the FoC diagram, meaning they must be two troops taking slots in the Foc (and of corse a HQ)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorTom11 wrote:Alright boys, those pics leaked from heresy online we too small and too low quality, and frankly, we deserve better

I took some time to enlarge them and run some enhancement filters and levelling on them... it's not a miracle or anything, but this should be a bit easier to see -

I wonder what the third bottom weapon for the dreadkinght is there's obviously a psycannon, incinerator and a huge NFW, but what is the bottom one?

Psycannon from a different angle.

It looks like two separate barrels as opposed to one large barrel though