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One of the guys on Seer specifically stated "You would need to always take 2 PAGK unless you went Paladins" regardless of henchman FOC. So, at the moment, it does not appear you can take henchmen to fulfill the two troops.

However, just take your two mandatory PAGK squads then enlist Coteaz Henchman Servitor/orangutan spam.

Well thats stupid...looks like Ordo Xenos players will need to take Grey Knights...

For the =I= only players sake, I hope you don't need two GK squads. But let's assume you do, then they have play the "counts as" game. So that would be what - two squads of Deathwatch for Xenos, and two super-sister squads for heretics?

Oh yeah; thats true. For my Ordo Xenos force I can just do 'Counts As' for Deathwatch; using the Grey Knights.

Still; theres always a chance that there will be Inquisitorial Stormtroopers to take up the 2 slots. (And it seems kinda silly to make Henchmen into troops but not counting)

ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.

Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.

I don't understand this line of thinking?

The rule book says you must have 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you take Cortez, Henchmen become Troops. Yes they don't take up a force org slot, but they're still troops. Have two of the squads and you have a legal list. Or am I wrong?

synack wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.

Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.

I don't understand this line of thinking?

The rule book says you must have 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you take Cortez, Henchmen become Troops. Yes they don't take up a force org slot, but they're still troops. Have two of the squads and you have a legal list. Or am I wrong?

Yes, you have an HQ and 2 Troops, but you don't have two Troops FOC SLOTS, which is what the BRB is actually telling you to do.

so are there no inq. style troops

So you need to take a minimum of two PAGK units per FOC???
I thought TAGK were troops choices too.

We do however have a FAQ ruling that the emperor's champion can be the necessary HQ in a black Templar army, even though he doesn't take a slot. So we'll have to see.

I understand that Purifiers are the new Purgation squads and can be taken as troops with a SC. They have improved A and LD over basic GK with a cool psychic power. Can you equip these squads with just Stormbolter and Nemesis weapons or do you have to take 4 specials? I was thinking of small scoring units of them but I don't want to give up all the NFW when they have and extra A!

For example can you run a 5 man Purifier squad like:
Justicar with cool stuff, 2 Psycannons, 2 SB/NFW

GK need more special weapons. They have a S6 heavy bolter and a heavy flamer. Where's the anti-tank?
My army, judjing by these rumours:
SC (haven't decided)
dreadknight
stormraven
dread
vindicare
callidus
purgation squad (4 incinerators)
PAGK (10)
inquisitor
henchmen
paladins (5)
TAGK (10)
PAGK (10)

but this game is turning into

OK, so going a bunch of threads/posts I come up with his as the GKSS entry:

100 points for 4 GKs plus Justicar

Justicar 444414293+
GK 444414183+

Equipment: Storm Bolter (counts as pistol in CC) and Nemesis Force Weapon (power weapon?)
Halberd Upgrade +5 points for +1I
Daemonhammer Upgrade +5 points for +1S
For every five you can upgrade to a: a) Psycannon, or b) Incinerator, or c) Psilencer

Hammerhead: Psychic test for squad-wide +1S
Warp Quake: Teleport homers nullified with 12" and enemy units Deep Striking within 12" suffer mishap.
Preferred Enemy: Daemon
ATSKNF
Combat squads
Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test)

Things I haven't seen: whether or not the squad can add single models at 20 points each; or whether or not they come standard with frag and krak grenades; whether or not the power weapon is included in the base cost.

All this seems a little point cheap when compared to the standard Space Marine, no?

whoadirty wrote:OK, so going a bunch of threads/posts I come up with his as the GKSS entry:

100 points for 4 GKs plus Justicar

Justicar 444414293+
GK 444414183+

Equipment: Storm Bolter (counts as pistol in CC) and Nemesis Force Weapon (power weapon?)
Halberd Upgrade +5 points for +1I
Daemonhammer Upgrade +5 points for +1S
For every five you can upgrade to a: a) Psycannon, or b) Incinerator, or c) Psilencer

Hammerhead: Psychic test for squad-wide +1S
Warp Quake: Teleport homers nullified with 12" and enemy units Deep Striking within 12" suffer mishap.
Preferred Enemy: Daemon
ATSKNF
Combat squads
Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test)

Things I haven't seen: whether or not the squad can add single models at 20 points each; or whether or not they come standard with frag and krak grenades; whether or not the power weapon is included in the base cost.

All this seems a little point cheap when compared to the standard Space Marine, no?

so the upgrades:
can you have +1S and +1I?
can you upgrade, say, 3 marines to have halberds and 2 to have daemonhammers?
and yes, 4pts for a power weapon, +1A, +1WS, preferred enemy, anti-psyker protection, nullifying teleport homers and deep strikers and a +1S psychic power?
this means either at least half these things are wrong or it's the most OP codex out.

Puscifer wrote:So you need to take a minimum of two PAGK units per FOC???
I thought TAGK were troops choices too.

No, from my understanding, you just need 2 troops that are part of the FOC so that's PAGK or TAGK. Even Paladins if you make them troops. It's just the henchmen that are different as they don't count towards the FOC.

Interestingly, over on Warseer, someone called Ominous Anonymous has said:

"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."

Not sure I like the idea of traitorous geneseed in my Grey Knights. I've always been the kind of person that just likes the good guys although the troubled anti-hero type can be pretty cool. And I do like Dark Angels too. But GK possibly having some traitor DNA in them? That's a fluff change/addition too far for me.

shrike wrote:

so the upgrades:
can you have +1S and +1I?
can you upgrade, say, 3 marines to have halberds and 2 to have daemonhammers?
and yes, 4pts for a power weapon, +1A, +1WS, preferred enemy, anti-psyker protection, nullifying teleport homers and deep strikers and a +1S psychic power?
this means either at least half these things are wrong or it's the most OP codex out.

I'm thinking the power weapon can't be free, or maybe just the Justicar has it. WS is the same as a SM. And yeah, any model can do the CC upgrade.

Heh, Grand Master Mordrak, the guy with the ghost knights and master crafted daemonhammer also has:

First to the Fray: If he deploys via Deepstrike, he and his unit arrive first turn and does not scatter.

Could be a very nasty surprise for the opposition.

Power weapon is going to be just the justicar...and probably "free" as his base points value will be upped as well...

ColdSadHungry wrote:

Puscifer wrote:So you need to take a minimum of two PAGK units per FOC???
I thought TAGK were troops choices too.

No, from my understanding, you just need 2 troops that are part of the FOC so that's PAGK or TAGK. Even Paladins if you make them troops. It's just the henchmen that are different as they don't count towards the FOC.

Interestingly, over on Warseer, someone called Ominous Anonymous has said:

"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."

Not sure I like the idea of traitorous geneseed in my Grey Knights. I've always been the kind of person that just likes the good guys although the troubled anti-hero type can be pretty cool. And I do like Dark Angels too. But GK possibly having some traitor DNA in them? That's a fluff change/addition too far for me.

It's likely a reference to Garro, who was originally DeathGuard hence 'traitorous fusion'.....

ColdSadHungry wrote:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."

Thousand Sons seems to be the obvious awnser here.

shrike wrote:GK need more special weapons. They have a S6 heavy bolter and a heavy flamer. Where's the anti-tank?
My army, judjing by these rumours:
SC (haven't decided)
dreadknight
stormraven
dread
vindicare
callidus
purgation squad (4 incinerators)
PAGK (10)
inquisitor
henchmen
paladins (5)
TAGK (10)
PAGK (10)

but this game is turning into

If everything is cheesy, nothing is cheesy anymore.

Think about that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It just saddens me that, like all those weird and wonderful Incubi options (bodyguard people), we'll never see models for these Inquisition style things. Jokearo may be silly, but I'd rather see a model for them than not...

We can always hold out hope for some "direct only" minis. I am curious how they will repackage all the henchmen models that currently exist. Something tells me GW will want to put them in a boxset of some sort.

Mr Hyena wrote:Well thats stupid...looks like Ordo Xenos players will need to take Grey Knights...

You've got that a bit backwards... this codex isn't designed for Ordo Xenos players... so its that Grey Knights can take Ordo Xenos Inquisitors. When you build an army that contradicts the design intent, you can't complain when it doesn't fit your imagination.

MK III IRON ARMOUR

Purifier squad?

Platuan4th wrote:

synack wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.

Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.

I don't understand this line of thinking?

The rule book says you must have 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you take Cortez, Henchmen become Troops. Yes they don't take up a force org slot, but they're still troops. Have two of the squads and you have a legal list. Or am I wrong?

Yes, you have an HQ and 2 Troops, but you don't have two Troops FOC SLOTS, which is what the BRB is actually telling you to do.

I'll just leave this here...

BLACK TEMPLARS Official Update Version 1.1 wrote:Q. Can I field the Emperorʼs Champion as my one
compulsory HQ choice and no other HQs in the army?
(p31)
A. Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ slot, he is
still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfil the minimum HQ
requirement

Nicorex wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."

Thousand Sons seems to be the obvious awnser here.

Why Thousand Sons???

Just because the entire army is psychic, doesn't mean that it was taken from the Thousand Son genestock.

Garro is generally recognised as either the first =I= or the the first GK. He was a Death Guard, yet you don't really see their traits in the GK either. It's tough to see where the Geneseed comes from other than from the Emperor himself, which has been mentioned in several books over the last 20+ years.

Yeah...the theory has always been Emporer...or...we have no idea.

Deepstriking Land Raiders? COOL! Took one immediately. Did it work? Well, it didn't scatter and die (shocking) - but it didn't do much. 250+ points coming in on turn 4 wasn't so cool.

Magna grapple? COOL! Took one immediately. Didn't do much.

Insane Dark Eldar Cthulhu-Eats-Your-Face grendade? COOL! Got killed by one immediately.

Put the cool in. Put it all over the place. It's flavor. No one's going to build an army around these ideas - and if they do, they'll be both cool - and terribly ineffective.

So very true!
If taking all the fun gimmicks like psycannons, ward saves, extra powers etc the army will most probably be unusable.
There is bound to be a delicate balance between taking just the few extra toys and simply getting to few models.

VIII. Warding Staves are a generic 2++ as far as I know. And no, outside of the Crusader type Henchman, there be no Storm Shields. Guess they wanted to leave that to the regular SMs.

As per above, DA and SW and even SM armies that are wholly or almost wholly made up of terminators are going to be more effective then all GK terminator armies.

The reason are stormshields and the ability to mix them in units in large quantities.

A 2++ ward save will be nice but you will only be able to afford like one per terminator squad whereas a stormshield can be afforded eitehr for free or cheap points for the other terminator armies.
It is quantity that save terminator squads not quality. When a plasmacannon template wounds 2-4 of your terminators (or other multiwound AP1-2 weapon) you need multiple 3++ saves to disperse the wounds with and not ONE 2++ save, this will just get more of your 5++ terminators get killed.

What is one 2++ save amongst a squad going to do against multiple hammers or first in Cc?
On the contrary, multiple 3++ shields will completely shut down any GK terminator squad in Cc.

I predict a hard counter to GK terminators and even paladins in the form of the humble SM SS/TH terminator squad.
No matter how I try out some mathammer with equal points the hammer terminators absolutely own any form of "rumored" GK squads in Cc.

XI. Costs: GM = 175. BC = 150. Libby = 150. Brotherhood Champ = 100 (For Arty Armour and weapons of awesome!)

There goes the cheap HQ potion GK once had. I missed my 60p BC option.
Imagine a GK HQ being at at least 200p with that 2++ save. Not much left over for other models.

kill a Herald of each of the four Chaos Gods, kick the ass of one of the 666 super daemons and more.

LOL
Given how rare it is to be at the exact same place as a certain herald pops up and given how rare those occasions are I take it becoming a paladin takes about 3000 years or so.
We have a squad of a bunch of beardo grandpas, cool.

but it almost seems as if the GKs can be called in if any of the Ordos are having too many problems. SEEMS though, I have to check.

Ahh, so this is the fluff explanation of GKs being mixed in with xeno =I=s and such.
Logical I must say. If the xenos has trouble they ask malleous for help and for a (I guess) steep price in the form of favours, the malleous lends out a GK force.
Clever GW, clever. I totally buy this.

-Brotherhood of Psykers: A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. They count as a single psyker and follow all the normal rules as such with the following clarifications:
I. GK unit uses the leadership of the Justicar or Knight of Flame if he is alive, otherwise, uses the unit's LD. They may never use the LD of an Independent character for Psychic Tests

Auch, that sucks, makes the force weapon ability pretty dull. Only one model in the squad may use the force ability so multiple wound units like grotesques etc will still be a big problem for the GKs point per point.

AgeOfEgos wrote:One of the guys on Seer specifically stated "You would need to always take 2 PAGK unless you went Paladins" regardless of henchman FOC. So, at the moment, it does not appear you can take henchmen to fulfill the two troops.

However, just take your two mandatory PAGK squads then enlist Coteaz Henchman Servitor/orangutan spam.

So he would still be wrong because you can also have Terminators as troops? :p

shrike wrote:but this game is turning into

So what you're saying is that you have no idea what you're talking about?

Ahh, so this is the fluff explanation of GKs being mixed in with xeno =I=s and such.
Logical I must say. If the xenos has trouble they ask malleous for help and for a (I guess) steep price in the form of favours, the malleous lends out a GK force.
Clever GW, clever. I totally buy this.

They must have made the chapter bigger in the fluff then. As the GKs are always saying (And Malleus too) is that theres too few GKs to spare even one.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Ahh, so this is the fluff explanation of GKs being mixed in with xeno =I=s and such.
Logical I must say. If the xenos has trouble they ask malleous for help and for a (I guess) steep price in the form of favours, the malleous lends out a GK force.
Clever GW, clever. I totally buy this.

They must have made the chapter bigger in the fluff then. As the GKs are always saying (And Malleus too) is that theres too few GKs to spare even one.

According to some of the fluffsites and some info that i've gleaned from various sources they are 3000 strong, but most of their number are on duty either investigating or battling against a Daemonic Incursion. Apparently there is a mini-map in the dex which shows the amount and placings of the incursions across the Galaxy.

Most of them are at the eye.