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That's right. Hell Blades are interesting because in FW's DFTS PDF, they become a dedicated Skyfire unit, so if your non-air unit using opponent vetoes DFTS to deny you the reserves bonus, your air supremacy flyer becomes a lethal strafer. If they want to use DFTS with their Fire Raptor, you're going to fly right up its backside. Win-win
I'll just try to find the rules online to test the alpha legion with the ordnance tyrant and if it works well buy the book later. It seems like it would be a good combo with their rules of coming back. Infiltrate in the enemy's face, assault, shoot into combat, repeat when they respawn. I'm thinking units bigger than the min 10 size will be more important though so that they can last through a combat or two before getting wiped.
Was just reading the BRB and noticed something that might be nice for TS players.
May well be known and practised already but force is a blessing! So if you have any sorcerer with your TS or marked marines it reads to me that you just need to get that power off and boom +1 inv.
Latro_ wrote: Was just reading the BRB and noticed something that might be nice for TS players.
May well be known and practised already but force is a blessing! So if you have any sorcerer with your TS or marked marines it reads to me that you just need to get that power off and boom +1 inv.
Yep, was discussed in the dedicated TS thread though some people didn't agree with the mechanics about it. Will come as a surprise to many players who don't dabble in psychic shenanigans but most thousand sons players are used to the less enlightened having no idea how the psychic phase works ;p
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
lindsay40k wrote: That's right. Hell Blades are interesting because in FW's DFTS PDF, they become a dedicated Skyfire unit, so if your non-air unit using opponent vetoes DFTS to deny you the reserves bonus, your air supremacy flyer becomes a lethal strafer. If they want to use DFTS with their Fire Raptor, you're going to fly right up its backside. Win-win
That's a really good point so without DFTS rules Hell Blade can still hit non-skimming ground targets at BS3?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zerosignal wrote: Any advice on loadouts for Death Guard tac squads w/rhino?
Minimum with a melta gun an melta bomb
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/09 12:24:13
@Intercessor: Yep, sans DFTS all Flyers can choose whether to Skyfire or not, with it only Fighters can do so and Interceptors can't switch it off. I've yet to actually get into a dogfight with my HB but on paper it looks lethal, so far it's won me two games by being able to fly into position to kill an officer or weapon specialist who thought he'd got a skirmish screen
Edit: in fact I suspect the presence of an Interceptor may even influence a local meta, taking a 200pt gunship is a big risk when 100pts of Autocannon are out there waiting to bring you down before the first movement phase!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/09 13:17:16
I do think there's things to be said for a ten man squad with AC & flamer or plasma. With T5 and Defensive Grenades, they can be quite a formidable prospect when they jump out and occupy a ruin with an Objective. Probably wouldn't do that with every one, though.
Well, I have twenty legion veteran MkIII models on order, so I might run one ten-man, one 5-man, and use the other 5 bodies for Havocs. Looking forward to the green stuff conversions!
lindsay40k wrote: I do think there's things to be said for a ten man squad with AC & flamer or plasma. With T5 and Defensive Grenades, they can be quite a formidable prospect when they jump out and occupy a ruin with an Objective. Probably wouldn't do that with every one, though.
But estandar marines don't have defensive grenades, only plagle marines.
lindsay40k wrote: I do think there's things to be said for a ten man squad with AC & flamer or plasma. With T5 and Defensive Grenades, they can be quite a formidable prospect when they jump out and occupy a ruin with an Objective. Probably wouldn't do that with every one, though.
But estandar marines don't have defensive grenades, only plagle marines.
Exactly.
I also don't get the single Autocannon in the squad. Autocannons require large numbers ala Havoks. Regular Marines and Chosen need to stick with spamming special weapons.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I would like to know how do you play Noise Marines nowadays ?
Large 20 men squad with icon, double blastmaster and sonic blaster or MSU 5 men squad with blastmaster and sonic blaster ? Foot or rhino ?
Same question for Terminator. Is termicide 3 man squad with combimelta/combiplasma always a thing (especially with this new formation) ?
Or a large 10 men squad wih combi plasma ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/13 10:34:41
Hmm. Cultists. It'll take a couple of turns of light firepower to scare them off. Bare minimum Lost and Damned comes in at 300pts. More, if you want the DA's unit to be a big Fearless tarpit. Same points as LaD gets you a couple of Helcults - both of them Fearless... which does mean no Go To Ground.
None of the above give access to ObSec, and nor do Havocs. If you're going CAD, Obliterators bring that and better flexibility. Tricky choices, indeed.
For terminator annihilation force loadouts combiplasma seems like a better choice. You can fire it at your designated target from farther away as bad scatter protection, and plasma is generally a better weapon for chunking monsters and high wound targets that you'd be meleeing with your hatred rerolls anyway.
As far as numbers you have to take 3 squads and they have to deepstrike for their double shots to happen, so min sized squads are your best bet to not mishap.
- three Termicide squads that pay less tax than if you took another CAD to get three Elite slots (this is OK but our Elites aren't exactly over-subscribed; many are overpriced for what they do, and Helbrutes are better in Formations)
- related to the above, potentially more than three Termicide squads (interesting)
- Obliged to add a Chaos Lord to the Termicide attack (this is a tricky thing to countenance; do we make the Lord an expensive fourth gun, or do we kit him up to cause havoc the turn after he arrives? MoN seems ok for making his squad a Distraction Carnifex)
- Get to fire Bolters on the same turn as firing their Combined shots (this is marginal at best)
- Can force a unit to GTG in the Movement Phase, enabling a Heldrake to then inflict D6 AP2 hits as it flies overhead (a rare fringe case, but hilarious when your opponent thought their Terminators were going to tank you - definitely employ psychology to try to bait your opponent into doing this when opportunity presents itself; "That's six wounds on your 4+ cover, do you want to Go To Ground?")
- Get to shoot at Interceptor weapons BEFORE THEY SHOOT AT OUR ARRIVING RESERVES (this is very significant)
If you're playing with a lot of Fliers or Daemons, the last point could be game-changing. Most people who take a Fortification go with an Aegis line, right? If you can land within 12" with a clear shot, three Plasma Guns kill a Gun Emplacement. It's probably going to be behind the wall, though, so it'll take two squads' fire, three if your previous turn's shooting didn't clear away enough bubble wrap or you have average scatter rolls.
But: there's units with Interceptor other than the common T7 W2 Icarus. Let's consider what else a Fire Raptor or Heldrake Terror Pack might want to be killed before it gets a free shot. I suspect there may be an argument for an air-heavy force to take two Plasma squads and two Melta squads (which in turn suggests a mobile character with Dimensional Key to try to get a precise DS).
- three Termicide squads that pay less tax than if you took another CAD to get three Elite slots (this is OK but our Elites aren't exactly over-subscribed; many are overpriced for what they do, and Helbrutes are better in Formations)
- related to the above, potentially more than three Termicide squads (interesting)
- Obliged to add a Chaos Lord to the Termicide attack (this is a tricky thing to countenance; do we make the Lord an expensive fourth gun, or do we kit him up to cause havoc the turn after he arrives? MoN seems ok for making his squad a Distraction Carnifex)
- Get to fire Bolters on the same turn as firing their Combined shots (this is marginal at best)
- Can force a unit to GTG in the Movement Phase, enabling a Heldrake to then inflict D6 AP2 hits as it flies overhead (a rare fringe case, but hilarious when your opponent thought their Terminators were going to tank you - definitely employ psychology to try to bait your opponent into doing this when opportunity presents itself; "That's six wounds on your 4+ cover, do you want to Go To Ground?")
- Get to shoot at Interceptor weapons BEFORE THEY SHOOT AT OUR ARRIVING RESERVES (this is very significant)
If you're playing with a lot of Fliers or Daemons, the last point could be game-changing. Most people who take a Fortification go with an Aegis line, right? If you can land within 12" with a clear shot, three Plasma Guns kill a Gun Emplacement. It's probably going to be behind the wall, though, so it'll take two squads' fire, three if your previous turn's shooting didn't clear away enough bubble wrap or you have average scatter rolls.
But: there's units with Interceptor other than the common T7 W2 Icarus. Let's consider what else a Fire Raptor or Heldrake Terror Pack might want to be killed before it gets a free shot. I suspect there may be an argument for an air-heavy force to take two Plasma squads and two Melta squads (which in turn suggests a mobile character with Dimensional Key to try to get a precise DS).
You can take a Sorceror instead of a Lord. Also firing the Burning Brand twice is awesome.
Hmm. Firing that thing twice isn't bad. But... a mobile character who started the game on the board may well get the chance to fire it in the previous turn, whereas our TAF friend is coming on turn 2 at the earliest (and turn three when luck and dirty tricks go against you).
Also, if the target is not a Gun Emplacement closely surrounded by secondary targets, it's going to have limited synergy with the squad's equipment. Interesting if you're landing next to a Fortification; Melta it, and also hit the inhabitants. One hell of a Distraction Carnifex, taking a fair bit of punishment to get rid of and also projecting a significant threat radius.
A daemonologist could be interesting. Increase target saturation in a sector your opponent thought secure until Termicide arrived, and, again, a significant threat. If you get lucky on powers, turn into a GUO in the middle of the enemy army.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Firing that thing twice isn't bad. But... a mobile character who started the game on the board may well get the chance to fire it in the previous turn, whereas our TAF friend is coming on turn 2 at the earliest (and turn three when luck and dirty tricks go against you).
Also, if the target is not a Gun Emplacement closely surrounded by secondary targets, it's going to have limited synergy with the squad's equipment. Interesting if you're landing next to a Fortification; Melta it, and also hit the inhabitants. One hell of a Distraction Carnifex, taking a fair bit of punishment to get rid of and also projecting a significant threat radius.
A daemonologist could be interesting. Increase target saturation in a sector your opponent thought secure until Termicide arrived, and, again, a significant threat. If you get lucky on powers, turn into a GUO in the middle of the enemy army.
While the first part is true, he isn't likely to die the turn he comes in compared to T1. Plus Combi-Plasma + Running or shooting Bolters (yawn) ain't too bad. I'd say the formation is only worth it if you love Termicide as much as I do.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: Question in regards to word bearers
Do you guys prefer the black crusade detachment in traitor legions?
You mean the Grand Host? Well... I'm already conflicted on the 'big modular formation', as a Land Raider that can carry Possessed into battle comes with a hefty tax. (I know they're overcosted, but if they can be protected from Bolter fire then they can deliver a formidable Fearless charge, and in a CAD they're ObSec.) And they don't let you take certain handy FW stuff - Hell Blades are amazing but don't have Wing rules yet.
Grand Host versus Black Crusade... CCSM Warlord Traits are pants IMO, Master of Deception is great but you'll roll it in fewer than a third of games. Half the Word Bearers ones are great, and the Chaos Boon manipulation is situationally ok; I'll take an effective 4+ save against Spawndom over causing Fear. Crusader or Hatred: Imperium. Eh, you already Hate Space Marines, you have cheap access to Hatred: Imperium, and you already trample on IG. BC is marginally better if you'll need to punch a lot of Ogryns to death, but even then near guaranteeing you'll kill a unit when it runs away (or remain Locked with Loyalist Astartes who chicken out and try to tag in their Devastator mates) is probably better overall.
The Warband component... well, it's like a CAD that almost entirely removes the risk of Spawndom, and extends ObSec to everyone, but as I say can't take an independent Land Raider or FW Flyers. Until FW let me take a Wing of Hell Blades, that's a pretty big deal for me. But, you can still take DT Dreadclaws. ObSec Drop Pods that can drop ObSec Chosen and then keep flying around. And ObSec Terminators that can bring an ObSec LR. Your move, Guilliman. Note: RAW, units in a Warband cannot use their double Chaos Boon rolls on the free rolls from the GH/BC (it specifies that they get the extra roll if the roll was generated by Champion of Chaos).
The LatD component... I like it. The DA gains a Zealot bubble (what was that about Grand Host losing Hatred: Imperium?), and I'm starting to respect a couple of Fearless tarpits. Demagogues are a safe choice to throw a risky free Boon - if they become a Spawn, they get better, and if they get Apotheosis then try not to laugh like Skeletor. With Crusader, they can get into position to goad the enemy into using close range Rapid Fire on cannon fodder, or even jump out and charge them (and the DA can project Zealot farther). As long as one of them survives the charge, then a unit of Possessed or Warp Talons or Daemons can get stuck in without facing OW or suffering for want of Frag Grenades. I'm seriously looking into taking this, and a CAD with a Tac Rhino & LR full of Possessed for my ObSec & Hell Blade tax.
While the first part is true, he isn't likely to die the turn he comes in compared to T1. Plus Combi-Plasma + Running or shooting Bolters (yawn) ain't too bad. I'd say the formation is only worth it if you love Termicide as much as I do.
Hmm, I hadn't considered that they get to shoot Plasma and Run. Give them a single CF and that can really pile on the pressure as a Distraction Carnifex that will punch out your Ordnance if you don't shoot it to death. And they'll not get Plasma Cannoned so easily, either (can't roll a 1 for Run dispersal when you have Crusader!). Even run around a corner and scarecrow with their charge radius
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have I mentioned I like Hell Blades, yet?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/02/15 01:32:45
Anyone get any good synergy out of Hell Talons with the new Traitors Legion supplement? They're not too costly and have some nice options... its a HUUUUGE model though.
I've got the one and it's been alright but my buddy is running 2 Heldrakes and I don't think the Hell blade is going to be worth taking. They are a little squishy with on av10 all round.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/15 09:48:11
I'm just running the one, mostly playing quick 1K games, but two in 2K+ looks ok. Against two Heldrakes, a single Hell Blade has still got a good chance of taking one out or crippling it in the three dogfights before any of them arrives, don't forget it gets two rolls for Engage and Manoeuvre when attacking. A pair of them should be a pretty effective air supremacy force. Hopefully it'll get Wing rules...
Regarding Word Bearers and the Black Crusade versus the Grand Host, I say Grand Host without any reservation.
The core CSM warlord traits have a single really good trait (Master of Deception), and only one of the remaining traits will be normally usable depending on the foe you face. Hatred is handy of course, but useless versus Marines/Imperials as you already have Veterans of the Long War. Inversely, Black Crusader can be really useful against Marines as it effectively acts as a better Kurov's Aquila for free, but it's useless against anything else. Exalted Champion is normally relatively useless, but it gains some traction in a Black Crusade, since Path to Glory explicitly states that it stacks with Favored Scions for free boons.
On the other hand, the Word Bearers have far less duds in their Warlord Traits, and they get several rather cool abilities with them. Voice of Lorgar allows for shenanigans (Spawn with Furious Charge are surprisingly useful as disposable tank hunters), Nexus of the Gods is really cool but I find it requires really good positioning to take advantage of, but Latent Psyker is my personal favorite. Zealot is handy too; really the only duds are the Fearless+Adamantium Will trait (and even Ad Will can be useful as anti-shriek insurance) and the pregame boon (too random IMO).
The thing that really does it for me is getting Crusader across the entire detachment. Personally my view is that all Word Bearers models with VoTLW should have gotten it as a Legion tactic anyway, but that's nitpicking; extra speed wins objectives, gets you in position faster (Crusader Spawn are almost guaranteed to get a 6" run), and compensate for giving your Sorcerer(s) a Palanquin instead of a Bike.
The real kicker is that Crusader applies to an entire unit, even if only one model in a unit has the rule. My list runs a Warband and a standalone Hellcult, with my Lord joining one Cultist unit and the Sorcerer joining another one, so that both Cultist units gain Crusader and Obsec. The Lord is a Scrolls of Magnus caster, and the Sorcerer is my Warlord/summoner. Both units move-cast-run, and keep pressure on the foe (alongside other fast units, termicide, etc)
I've got a local tournament coming up that may require only CAD + Ally detachments with no super heavies. Anyone have any ideas for good World Eater lists that are fluffy and competitive? I never realized how much I would miss the 2D6 move and free rerolls to charges until they were gone.
I'm workshopin' WECAD + KDK Ally. KDK brings a DP with Blood Armour, Bloodleters to deep strike, and 10 - 20 Flesh Hounds for the scout / anti-charge / tarpit hell. That leaves my WECAD. Thinking two Juggerlords, some CSM with Rhinos, and Bikes or Spawn. Althooooooough I do have a Kharybdis that could be pretty damn fun to use. Fill it with Kharn, Termie Lord, and some Termies and go to town. That would end up BEING my army pretty much, but it would be pretty brutal for a Turn Two multi-charge. Kharybdis basically guarantees you will get where you need to get to, as long as you aren't blown out of the sky beforehand.
Kharybdis seems to only be at a big risk if they have first turn and a Fighter with punch, even then your odds aren't terrible. Once you're on the board and dropped off the death star, it's done its job. If you want to keep it safe, check with your TO if Interceptor and Air Leviathan cancel each other out - if so, a Hell Blade will either catch a load of flack for it or add to the multiple air units causing trouble and adding to target saturation.
