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Caederes wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I just went through the video. Does it actually say that Wraithcannons (not Heavy Wraithcannons) still have Distort?

D is for Destroyer wrote:[generalised fluff description of Eldar distort weaponry] ... the swirling portal they create dragging their unfortunate targets into the Warp. As a result, distort weapons have the Destroyer rule, enabling them to tear men and tanks apart with horrifying ease. The Wraithknight comes with two such weapons - a pair of heavy wraithcannons that enable the towering ghost warrior to engage the enemy at range, pummelling their tanks, monsters and fortifications from afar.

No, but it does say that the heavy wraithcannons are just "two such weapons". It seems to be speaking categorically of distort weapons as a type. This is one reason why I believe it was a mistake; changing other Distort weapons doesn't seem like something they'd do, as long-entrenched in the fluff as they are. They'd have to remove distort weapons from other units that have them, instead of just making the Wraithknight's heavy wraithcannons specifically Destroyer because they're so big or whatever (much like the Titan-class laser weapons are Destroyer but not all laser weapons are). Even so, I also doubt that they wanted the Wraithknight (and certainly the Wraithguard) to have ranged Destroyer weapons.

I severely doubt it is a mistake. If you read the "clashes" where they pit a Wraithknight against various opponents, it's pretty darned easy to tell it is using Destroyer weapons. It does something like 20+ wounds to the 2 Toxicrenes it fights simultaneously...

Yes, but that includes melee. I believe (and fully support) in the ghostglaive being a Destroyer weapon. However, I think that the person got confused by the ghostglaive being a "D" (Destroyer) weapon and the heavy wraithcannons being "D" (distort) weapons, and thus wrote in the "D is for Destroyer" section that "distort weapons have the Destroyer rule".

I don't believe they made Wraithguard have Destroyer weapons, but if it wasn't a mistake, that leaves only one alternative; that they changed wraithcannons, D-cannons and D-scythes to no longer be Distort weapons. I really don't think they'd do that, either. It'd be like stating that all laser weapons are Destroyer and then retroactively changing lasguns, multi-lasers and lascannons to ionised particle beams or something.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I just went through the video. Does it actually say that Wraithcannons (not Heavy Wraithcannons) still have Distort?

D is for Destroyer wrote:[generalised fluff description of Eldar distort weaponry] ... the swirling portal they create dragging their unfortunate targets into the Warp. As a result, distort weapons have the Destroyer rule, enabling them to tear men and tanks apart with horrifying ease. The Wraithknight comes with two such weapons - a pair of heavy wraithcannons that enable the towering ghost warrior to engage the enemy at range, pummelling their tanks, monsters and fortifications from afar.

No, but it does say that the heavy wraithcannons are just "two such weapons". It seems to be speaking categorically of distort weapons as a type. This is one reason why I believe it was a mistake; changing other Distort weapons doesn't seem like something they'd do, as long-entrenched in the fluff as they are. They'd have to remove distort weapons from other units that have them, instead of just making the Wraithknight's heavy wraithcannons specifically Destroyer because they're so big or whatever (much like the Titan-class laser weapons are Destroyer but not all laser weapons are). Even so, I also doubt that they wanted the Wraithknight (and certainly the Wraithguard) to have ranged Destroyer weapons.

I severely doubt it is a mistake. If you read the "clashes" where they pit a Wraithknight against various opponents, it's pretty darned easy to tell it is using Destroyer weapons. It does something like 20+ wounds to the 2 Toxicrenes it fights simultaneously...

Yes, but that includes melee. I believe (and fully support) in the ghostglaive being a Destroyer weapon. However, I think that the person got confused by the ghostglaive being a "D" (Destroyer) weapon and the heavy wraithcannons being "D" (distort) weapons, and thus wrote in the "D is for Destroyer" section that "distort weapons have the Destroyer rule".

I don't believe they made Wraithguard have Destroyer weapons, but if it wasn't a mistake, that leaves only one alternative; that they changed wraithcannons, D-cannons and D-scythes to no longer be Distort weapons. I really don't think they'd do that, either. It'd be like stating that all laser weapons are Destroyer and then retroactively changing lasguns, multi-lasers and lascannons to ionised particle beams or something.

I'm down for that take on the article, but unfortunately it does clearly state after the bit about distortion weapons being destroyer weapons that "an Eldar Wraithknight can carry a ghostglaive.....It is also a Destroyer Weapon when wielded by a Wraithknight". That doesn't leave much room for interpretation :(

Jetbike spam won't dominate anything aside from lists that couldn't fare against competitive stuff anyway or random pick up games with an unprepared opponent. There's vaurious counters to it of which a few completely shut them down.

"But but... the Eldar player has points for other stuff too!"

Yeah, so does everyone else.

And it remains to be seen if you can actually spam the bikes in those amounts anyway, I have a hunch you can't.

And did someone just think it's possible Wraithguard would have D weapons?

Like I said, I fully believe the ghostglaive is a Destroyer weapon. Just not the heavy wraithcannons (or, for that matter, any Distort weapon*). What I meant is that the writer, seeing the Destroyer status of the ghostglaive, conflated that with the "D" for "Distort", thereby believing that they were meant to write about how "distort weapons have the Destroyer rule".

EDIT: * not mounted on a Phantom Titan

 RunicFIN wrote:
Jetbike spam won't dominate anything aside from lists that couldn't fare against competitive stuff anyway or random pick up games with an unprepared opponent. There's vaurious counters to it of which a few completely shut them down.

"But but... the Eldar player has points for other stuff too!"

Yeah, so does everyone else.

And it remains to be seen if you can actually spam the bikes in those amounts anyway, I have a hunch you can't.

And did someone just think it's possible Wraithguard would have D weapons?

I'm not aware of anything in the game that "completely shuts down" 40 marine durability wounds with optional jink with across the board range and tons of s6 shots in one turn for less than a grand that is actually allowed in tournaments commonly. Sprinkle some psykers in there and ally some anti-tank and you have a top tier tourney army right there, as long as the player is halfway competent and didn't blaspheme the dice gods that morning.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Jetbike spam won't dominate anything aside from lists that couldn't fare against competitive stuff anyway or random pick up games with an unprepared opponent. There's vaurious counters to it of which a few completely shut them down.

"But but... the Eldar player has points for other stuff too!"

Yeah, so does everyone else.

And it remains to be seen if you can actually spam the bikes in those amounts anyway, I have a hunch you can't.

And did someone just think it's possible Wraithguard would have D weapons?

Are you keeping up with it at all? It doesn't remain to be seen unless the White Dwarf video is a lie, White Dwarf is wrong or something else somewhere is pulling the wool over our eyes. There is an entry on the points cost of the Jetbikes, including unit composition. There are images of the Decurion style Detachment. The 1080pts for 160 shots is 'only' 30 Jetbikes, the max in the Decurion requirement for the Windrider Host. 30 Jetbikes is 810pts when each is armed with Scatter Lasers, and because I'm lazy I'm going to assume the other points are spent on the requirements of the Windrider Host. How can you have a hunch that you can't when the evidence, and very solid evidence, says that it's not only possible but easy to do.

And yes, people are saying the Wraithguard might have D weapons because of the wording shown in White Dwarf. It's hard to stomach but that is merely how it sounds with what we have now. That's why folks are trying to find a way for that information to be misrepresented or mean something other than how it sounds.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Jetbike spam won't dominate anything aside from lists that couldn't fare against competitive stuff anyway or random pick up games with an unprepared opponent. There's vaurious counters to it of which a few completely shut them down.

"But but... the Eldar player has points for other stuff too!"

Yeah, so does everyone else.

And it remains to be seen if you can actually spam the bikes in those amounts anyway, I have a hunch you can't.

And did someone just think it's possible Wraithguard would have D weapons?

The point is that at 27 points per model, an Eldar player can take a lot of Jetbikes that will tear entire armies apart and still have crap tonnes of room left. No army in the game has anything that points efficient or devastating in the Troops slot, which makes them horrendously over-powered in the context of 7th Edition especially as they are hyper-mobile.

As far as Wraithguard are concerned, before you start laughing, why not check the facts?
The White Dwarf article states that all Distortion weapons are Destroyer weapons. All Wraithguard weapons are Distortion weapons as of the 6th Edition codex. Put two and two together.

@Frozen Ocean
Are you sure they would make such a huge mistake though? I mean, there are mistakes in every White Dwarf magazine but usually those are down to them not keeping the core rulebook rules handy relative to what they are trying out. I doubt the writers and editors all mistakenly thought Distortion weapons were Destroyer weapons, so much so that they made it the focus of one of their little "editorial" blurbs.
Again, I would LOVE to be wrong...I'm just expecting the worst right now given the evidence.

7-th edition Codex: Eldar review:

...and you thought it can't get more broken than 6-th, right?

Sigh...

We'll see.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Sigh...

We'll see.

We have seen, and it is broken.

Someone on BoLS pointed something juicy out, look at that Youtube video again and check the unique detachment. The auxiliary detachment with Falcons/Night Spinners/Fire Prisms refers to "1 unit of (x)", not just "1 (x)". Squadrons for Falcons, Night Spinners and Fire Prisms sounds pretty groovy to me!

I want to say this is a cash-grabbing move on GW's part, but as the saying goes: "Never ascribe to malice that which can equaly be explained by incompetence."

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Sigh...

We'll see.

We have seen, and it is broken.

Great. Now we'll just wait for tournament reports where Eldar jetbikes and Wraithguard with D weapons each dominated everyone.

If one should try to counterargument that it's the pick up games / casual matches where the issue is then what I said before is true: It's only an issue when played in a pick up match against an unprepared opponent or against an army that gets demolished by everything anyway. Both scenarios inwhich possibly hundreds of lists cause the same issue already.

The sad part is that we finally get good Jetbikes and groups are just gonna end up banning them completely.

Guess I'm gonna hold off on the new and shiny until I find out if I'm going to even be allowed to use them.

Tournaments will only ban Windrider "Devastator" units where each guy has a heavy weapon if they ban them at all, Windriders are otherwise the same as they are now and I don't know of any tournament that bans their current incarnation.

I'm more worried that Wraithguard and Wraithknights will be banned. We still don't know the whole picture but I'm pretty sure a lot of tournaments ban ranged Destroyer weapons, though I guess the Wraithknight with a Ghostglaive or Suncannon as well as Wraithblades will be cheering for a change.

 RunicFIN wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Sigh...

We'll see.

We have seen, and it is broken.

Great. Now we'll just wait for tournament reports where Eldar jetbikes and Wraithguard with D weapons each dominated everyone.

If one should try to counterargument that it's the pick up games / casual matches where the issue is then what I said before is true: It's only an issue when played in a pick up match against an unprepared opponent or against an army that gets demolished by everything anyway. Both scenarios inwhich possibly hundreds of lists cause the same issue already.

None of the tourney armies that I have played against lately would survive 160 "not quite assault cannon" shots with a sprinkle of psychic utility and some anti-armor mixed in. It literally would take some of the most broken combos in the game such as rerollable 2++'s and invis deathstars to stay on the table for longer than half the game.

It's definitely not a problem for pickup matches. In fact, nothing is. You just deny games against people with stuff you think you'd not have fun playing against. Might be an issue for tourneys, however.

By the way, why are we assuming Wraithguard will be troops in the new codex?

 koooaei wrote:
It's definitely not a problem for pickup matches. In fact, nothing is. You just deny games against people with stuff you think you'd not have fun playing against. Might be an issue for tourneys, however.

Yeah, for PUG's, it's just another one to add to the list.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_hanged_man wrote:
Thought people might find this interesting.

Did anyone else notice that under Engines of Vaul that it says "unit" of Falcons, Fire Prisms, or Night Spinners?

Because that strikes me as kind of a big deal.

Sorry i was too busy throwing up at the entry just above it where they let you take 1-12 WK's points permitting.

Did you see the part where you have to take a spiritseer, 3 units of wraithguard and a wraith lord to take each of those 1-12 WK? Do people really not know how to read these new formations? Do you have any idea how much that would cost to take 12 WK? Let me do the math based on 6E codex points. That would be 10,920 at the absolute cheapest. Now WK are probably getting a price hike, plus you need a core formation to take them. Now we're up to 12,000 points.

Ah the wraithknight a GMC....

Poor nid players, those Toxicrenes that have been giving wraithknights a little bit of trouble are now going to get squashed.

Holy gak this thread is impossible to follow I understand people want to chat about the rumours but it's damned near impossible to read for us mere mortals who can't be checking it every 10 minutes, lol.

Maybe the OP can be updated with what we've learned since page 25?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Holy gak this thread is impossible to follow I understand people want to chat about the rumours but it's damned near impossible to read for us mere mortals who can't be checking it every 10 minutes, lol.

Maybe the OP can be updated with what we've learned since page 25?

I've read it all. The only information that is new is the video detailing the white dwarf. Everything else has been QQ.

I'm loving this. Still in the rumor stages and it's the most hated army ever.

Talys wrote:By the way, why are we assuming Wraithguard will be troops in the new codex?

We aren't. We are saying IF they are still a Troops choice, GW are idiots for letting a Troops choice have Destroyer weapons. Then again, even if they are only Elites now it is still stupid.

Toofast wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_hanged_man wrote:
Thought people might find this interesting.

Did anyone else notice that under Engines of Vaul that it says "unit" of Falcons, Fire Prisms, or Night Spinners?

Because that strikes me as kind of a big deal.

Sorry i was too busy throwing up at the entry just above it where they let you take 1-12 WK's points permitting.

Did you see the part where you have to take a spiritseer, 3 units of wraithguard and a wraith lord to take each of those 1-12 WK? Do people really not know how to read these new formations? Do you have any idea how much that would cost to take 12 WK? Let me do the math based on 6E codex points. That would be 10,920 at the absolute cheapest. Now WK are probably getting a price hike, plus you need a core formation to take them. Now we're up to 12,000 points.

There are two Wraith-centric formations. The first is the Wraith Host which you describe accurately. The second, the one Red Corsair is referring to, is Wraith-Constructs. In it, you can take 1 of either a Hemlock Wraithfighter, Wraithlord or Wraithknight.
Ergo, you can take 12 Wraithknights with the only "tax" being one of the mandatory Core Guardian formations.

 djones520 wrote:
I'm loving this. Still in the rumor stages and it's the most hated army ever.

Except it isn't rumours. We've literally seen stuff from the codex in the WD.

 Mulletdude wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Holy gak this thread is impossible to follow I understand people want to chat about the rumours but it's damned near impossible to read for us mere mortals who can't be checking it every 10 minutes, lol.

Maybe the OP can be updated with what we've learned since page 25?

I've read it all. The only information that is new is the video detailing the white dwarf. Everything else has been QQ.

There's obviously some new stuff from the upcoming WD, people are discussing rumours that I can't find on the front page, this wasn't on the front page...

 Sir Arun wrote:
So much for fixing Jetbikes...

Spoiler:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm loving this. Still in the rumor stages and it's the most hated army ever.

Except it isn't rumours. We've literally seen stuff from the codex in the WD.

Right, because the WD has always been a correct representation of how the army is played.

Until it's on the table, and we're seeing variations of lists and the like, this type of stuff is just silly.

 djones520 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
I'm loving this. Still in the rumor stages and it's the most hated army ever.

Except it isn't rumours. We've literally seen stuff from the codex in the WD.

Right, because the WD has always been a correct representation of how the army is played.

Until it's on the table, and we're seeing variations of lists and the like, this type of stuff is just silly.

Their little mock games and the like are one thing.

But when they show you straight up statlines and rules from inside the codex, that's pretty hard to ignore. If you want to, sure, but you're going to cross that denial river eventually, I'm sure.

We're slowly moving to S: D lasguns to ballance things out.