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Caederes wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I made a sarcastic "the sky in fallin'" comment in the general thread about this, but wow, it kind of is so far. Wraith Knight needs a huge points increase and LoW status. Bikes need to be more expensive in points and FA. All distort should not be D. Jeez GW, does the CEO play Eldar or something?

Bikes are the same points costs and are Troops, no stat or special rule changes at all; the only changes to them specifically are that you can purchase Warlocks for the unit and each model can now take either a Scatter Laser or Shuriken Cannon.

Yes and this change means that bikes need to be more expensive.

 Talys wrote:
I just went through the video. Does it actually say that Wraithcannons (not Heavy Wraithcannons) still have Distort?

D is for Destroyer wrote:[generalised fluff description of Eldar distort weaponry] ... the swirling portal they create dragging their unfortunate targets into the Warp. As a result, distort weapons have the Destroyer rule, enabling them to tear men and tanks apart with horrifying ease. The Wraithknight comes with two such weapons - a pair of heavy wraithcannons that enable the towering ghost warrior to engage the enemy at range, pummelling their tanks, monsters and fortifications from afar.

No, but it does say that the heavy wraithcannons are just "two such weapons". It seems to be speaking categorically of distort weapons as a type. This is one reason why I believe it was a mistake; changing other Distort weapons doesn't seem like something they'd do, as long-entrenched in the fluff as they are. They'd have to remove distort weapons from other units that have them, instead of just making the Wraithknight's heavy wraithcannons specifically Destroyer because they're so big or whatever (much like the Titan-class laser weapons are Destroyer but not all laser weapons are). Even so, I also doubt that they wanted the Wraithknight (and certainly the Wraithguard) to have ranged Destroyer weapons.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Caederes wrote:
It's pretty simple logic dude....distortion weapons are destroyer weapons. It says the Heavy Wraithcannon is an example of this, meaning there is more than one distortion/destroyer weapon in the codex. It's a pretty safe bet the same applies to basic Wraithcannons....

I'll put down a hundo that wraithguard do not have unmitigated D-weapons. Take it, man. Safe bet.

Uh-huh. And what will all of the current Distortion weapons be then? Just Strength 10 AP2? The current list of Distortion weapons includes; Wraithcannon, Heavy Wraithcannon, D-Scythe, Heavy D-Scythe, D-Cannon, Voidbringer (Illic's sniper rifle).
If you honestly think they are going to remove the Distort rule from basic Wraithcannons when those same Wraithcannons have always been described as creating mini-black-holes and even had the precursor rules to current Destroyer weapons back in the 4th Edition codex, that's fine.
I - and others - will instead prepare for the inevitable.

Caederes wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Caederes wrote:
It's pretty simple logic dude....distortion weapons are destroyer weapons. It says the Heavy Wraithcannon is an example of this, meaning there is more than one distortion/destroyer weapon in the codex. It's a pretty safe bet the same applies to basic Wraithcannons....

I'll put down a hundo that wraithguard do not have unmitigated D-weapons. Take it, man. Safe bet.

Uh-huh. And what will all of the current Distortion weapons be then? Just Strength 10 AP2? The current list of Distortion weapons includes; Wraithcannon, Heavy Wraithcannon, D-Scythe, Heavy D-Scythe, D-Cannon, Voidbringer (Illic's sniper rifle).
If you honestly think they are going to remove the Distort rule from basic Wraithcannons when those same Wraithcannons have always been described as creating mini-black-holes and even had the precursor rules to current Destroyer weapons back in the 4th Edition codex, that's fine.
I - and others - will instead prepare for the inevitable.

I have no idea what they'll become! Not taking my bet, though? I like money.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I just went through the video. Does it actually say that Wraithcannons (not Heavy Wraithcannons) still have Distort?

D is for Destroyer wrote:[generalised fluff description of Eldar distort weaponry] ... the swirling portal they create dragging their unfortunate targets into the Warp. As a result, distort weapons have the Destroyer rule, enabling them to tear men and tanks apart with horrifying ease. The Wraithknight comes with two such weapons - a pair of heavy wraithcannons that enable the towering ghost warrior to engage the enemy at range, pummelling their tanks, monsters and fortifications from afar.

No, but it does say that the heavy wraithcannons are just "two such weapons". It seems to be speaking categorically of distort weapons as a type. This is one reason why I believe it was a mistake; changing other Distort weapons doesn't seem like something they'd do, as long-entrenched in the fluff as they are. They'd have to remove distort weapons from other units that have them, instead of just making the Wraithknight's heavy wraithcannons specifically Destroyer because they're so big or whatever (much like the Titan-class laser weapons are Destroyer but not all laser weapons are). Even so, I also doubt that they wanted the Wraithknight (and certainly the Wraithguard) to have ranged Destroyer weapons.

I severely doubt it is a mistake. If you read the "clashes" where they pit a Wraithknight against various opponents, it's pretty darned easy to tell it is using Destroyer weapons. It does something like 20+ wounds to the 2 Toxicrenes it fights simultaneously...

Caederes wrote:
Uh-huh. And what will all of the current Distortion weapons be then? Just Strength 10 AP2?

Sure, why not? 24'' Strength 10 AP2 and AP2 template weapons are weak?

If you honestly think they are going to remove the Distort rule from basic Wraithcannons when those same Wraithcannons have always been described as creating mini-black-holes and even had the precursor rules to current Destroyer weapons back in the 4th Edition codex, that's fine.
I - and others - will instead prepare for the inevitable.

Using fluff as a predictor for mechanics is a categorically awful idea. In this very thread, we've seen a unit (jetbikes) get a massive buff that was completely out of left field and was predicted by absolutely no one. Anyone who thinks that they have a handle on GW game design at this point is fooling themselves.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Caederes wrote:
It's pretty simple logic dude....distortion weapons are destroyer weapons. It says the Heavy Wraithcannon is an example of this, meaning there is more than one distortion/destroyer weapon in the codex. It's a pretty safe bet the same applies to basic Wraithcannons....

I'll put down a hundo that wraithguard do not have unmitigated D-weapons. Take it, man. Safe bet.

Uh-huh. And what will all of the current Distortion weapons be then? Just Strength 10 AP2? The current list of Distortion weapons includes; Wraithcannon, Heavy Wraithcannon, D-Scythe, Heavy D-Scythe, D-Cannon, Voidbringer (Illic's sniper rifle).
If you honestly think they are going to remove the Distort rule from basic Wraithcannons when those same Wraithcannons have always been described as creating mini-black-holes and even had the precursor rules to current Destroyer weapons back in the 4th Edition codex, that's fine.
I - and others - will instead prepare for the inevitable.

I have no idea what they'll become! Not taking my bet, though? I like money.

Taking a bet over a rule change with a random dude on the internet
I don't need to take a bet because it is pretty darned clear what is going to happen. Not to sound insulting, mind. I'm in disbelief about the whole thing. Distortion weapons should be powerful but giving Destroyer weapons to a standard unit is absolutely ridiculous. I pray you are right, honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Uh-huh. And what will all of the current Distortion weapons be then? Just Strength 10 AP2?

Sure, why not? 24'' Strength 10 AP2 and AP2 template weapons are weak?

If you honestly think they are going to remove the Distort rule from basic Wraithcannons when those same Wraithcannons have always been described as creating mini-black-holes and even had the precursor rules to current Destroyer weapons back in the 4th Edition codex, that's fine.
I - and others - will instead prepare for the inevitable.

Using fluff as a predictor for mechanics is a categorically awful idea.

I don't think they are weak, but using simple logic should tell you the Wraithcannons at least will remain distortion weapons. Whether your fluff comment is true or not, Wraithcannons have always had unique Destroyer-esque rules. The 4th Edition Wraithcannons actually had a chart similar to the current Destroyer weapon chart, albeit toned down. Making them proper Destroyer weapons is logical in many ways, but also pants-on-head moronic from a balance perspective.

Caederes wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Caederes wrote:
It's pretty simple logic dude....distortion weapons are destroyer weapons. It says the Heavy Wraithcannon is an example of this, meaning there is more than one distortion/destroyer weapon in the codex. It's a pretty safe bet the same applies to basic Wraithcannons....

I'll put down a hundo that wraithguard do not have unmitigated D-weapons. Take it, man. Safe bet.

Uh-huh. And what will all of the current Distortion weapons be then? Just Strength 10 AP2? The current list of Distortion weapons includes; Wraithcannon, Heavy Wraithcannon, D-Scythe, Heavy D-Scythe, D-Cannon, Voidbringer (Illic's sniper rifle).
If you honestly think they are going to remove the Distort rule from basic Wraithcannons when those same Wraithcannons have always been described as creating mini-black-holes and even had the precursor rules to current Destroyer weapons back in the 4th Edition codex, that's fine.
I - and others - will instead prepare for the inevitable.

I have no idea what they'll become! Not taking my bet, though? I like money.

Taking a bet over a rule change with a random dude on the internet
I don't need to take a bet because it is pretty darned clear what is going to happen. Not to sound insulting, mind. I'm in disbelief about the whole thing. Distortion weapons should be powerful but giving Destroyer weapons to a standard unit is absolutely ridiculous. I pray you are right, honestly.

We'll consider it a trade! I have like over 10 successful ones in the swap shop. But alright.

Sounds good! I really, really hope GW's rules designers aren't so stupid as to give a Troops choice (that might change though) Destroyer weapons, but if Windriders are any indication...ugh.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I am just going to say once again that I firmly believe the WD writer got "D-weapon" confused with "D weapon" in the "D is for Destroyer" section. It's too silly if it is, even if it only applies to heavy wraithcannons, though the "D is for Destroyer" section outright says that heavy wraithcannons are examples of D weapons, which are Destroyer. Otherwise, the only thing comparable in damage output to a unit of ten Wraithguard is an Imperator Titan. Having D wraithcannons makes the sword kind of pointless, too, and what about the suncannon?

The side bar says, "Eldar destroyer weapons use highly-advanced technology to rip holes in reality, the swirling portal they create dragging their unfortunate targets into the warp. As a result, distort weapons have the Destroyer rule."

Assuming he means, Distort (as in the special rule), the current wraithcannon and heavy wraithcannon would be D weapons. But, there's nothing denoting the rules for either, their ranges, etc.

Also, there's no indication of point cost, right? So a Wraithknight could be a 700 point unit, now, for all we know. I don't think so; I'm just saying, point cost is pretty important -- if your shiny WK gets blown up by a DWK squad that costs a lot less, that doesn't help you much either.

Caederes wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Caederes wrote:
It's pretty simple logic dude....distortion weapons are destroyer weapons. It says the Heavy Wraithcannon is an example of this, meaning there is more than one distortion/destroyer weapon in the codex. It's a pretty safe bet the same applies to basic Wraithcannons....

I'll put down a hundo that wraithguard do not have unmitigated D-weapons. Take it, man. Safe bet.

Uh-huh. And what will all of the current Distortion weapons be then? Just Strength 10 AP2? The current list of Distortion weapons includes; Wraithcannon, Heavy Wraithcannon, D-Scythe, Heavy D-Scythe, D-Cannon, Voidbringer (Illic's sniper rifle).
If you honestly think they are going to remove the Distort rule from basic Wraithcannons when those same Wraithcannons have always been described as creating mini-black-holes and even had the precursor rules to current Destroyer weapons back in the 4th Edition codex, that's fine.
I - and others - will instead prepare for the inevitable.

I have no idea what they'll become! Not taking my bet, though? I like money.

Taking a bet over a rule change with a random dude on the internet
I don't need to take a bet because it is pretty darned clear what is going to happen. Not to sound insulting, mind. I'm in disbelief about the whole thing. Distortion weapons should be powerful but giving Destroyer weapons to a standard unit is absolutely ridiculous. I pray you are right, honestly.

2 years ago Super Heavies in normal 40k games would have been ridiculous.

IMO this is even more of GW's hamfisted way of making everyone play with everything. One of the last hold-outs of TO's to make things remotely balanced is 'no ranged D weapons'. GW has seen that, and said 'screw you guys banning some of our models', and brought out a whole codex full of ranged D weapons.
Just like LOW became codex standards when people tried to ban then. Or superheavies became a legit codex of their own when people tried to ban them. Or codexes with no HQs or Troops or full of other formations became standard when people tried to restrict to one CAD..
(at least... thats my only hope that GW at least has some Machiavellian villain at the helm writing rules to some purpose, rather than just a money assigning rules and points by throwing gak at a wall)

Caederes wrote:
I don't think they are weak, but using simple logic should tell you the Wraithcannons at least will remain distortion weapons. Whether your fluff comment is true or not, Wraithcannons have always had unique Destroyer-esque rules. The 4th Edition Wraithcannons actually had a chart similar to the current Destroyer weapon chart, albeit toned down. Making them proper Destroyer weapons is logical in many ways, but also pants-on-head moronic from a balance perspective.

Simple logic tells me that allowing every model in a troops choice squad to take heavy weapons and giving troop-carriers the firepower and durability of main battle tanks is insane and a terrible idea. And yet...

Caederes wrote:
Sounds good! I really, really hope GW's rules designers aren't so stupid as to give a Troops choice (that might change though) Destroyer weapons, but if Windriders are any indication...ugh.

I would be left with no reaction other than to laugh despairingly if it turns out the bikes are NOT the most ridiculous things in the book.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Caederes wrote:
I don't think they are weak, but using simple logic should tell you the Wraithcannons at least will remain distortion weapons. Whether your fluff comment is true or not, Wraithcannons have always had unique Destroyer-esque rules. The 4th Edition Wraithcannons actually had a chart similar to the current Destroyer weapon chart, albeit toned down. Making them proper Destroyer weapons is logical in many ways, but also pants-on-head moronic from a balance perspective.

Simple logic tells me that allowing every model in a troops choice squad to take heavy weapons and giving troop-carriers the firepower and durability of main battle tanks is insane and a terrible idea. And yet...

Which is pretty much exactly why I bet even basic Wraithcannons are Destroyer weapons. Aren't you agreeing with me?

@niv-mizzet

You and me both buddy.

Time to take three Heldrakes out of retirement. At least they will get to flame something with 60 bikes on the table and have a good chance at living.

The problem will be not being tabled before the first one can come in.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Time to take three Heldrakes out of retirement. At least they will get to flame something with 60 bikes on the table and have a good chance at living.

The problem will be not being tabled before the first one can come in.

Pretty much! Not to mention if the Eldar player wanted to, he or she could have their entire army in your deployment zone on turn two and thus safe from the Heldrakes (who no longer have 360 degree shooting). 12" moves, 2D6 Assault phase moves (Eldar Jetbike rules) or a 36" Turbo Boost.

AV13 will shut down scatterlaser bike spam pretty hard.

So wait, anyone know the wording off the top of their heads about Sniper weapons and how they effect GCs? Because I wanna know if I can exploit my Deathmarks with their "wounding on a 2+" ability.

 Thaylen wrote:
AV13 will shut down scatterlaser bike spam pretty hard.

Sure, your Landraider will survive, but with the rest of your army dead, how will that help?

 Thaylen wrote:
AV13 will shut down scatterlaser bike spam pretty hard.

That won't work too well as all av13 vehicles have an av10 soft spot on them somewhere. Not to mention if there is anyway to give the unit rending with psychic powers.

 krodarklorr wrote:
So wait, anyone know the wording off the top of their heads about Sniper weapons and how they effect GCs? Because I wanna know if I can exploit my Deathmarks with their "wounding on a 2+" ability.

Sniper and Poisoned weapons only wound GCs on a 6. I'm pretty sure the Deathmark rule overrides that though.

@Thaylen
The only army I'm aware of that can spam AV13 is Necrons. Even so, Eldar are pretty set when it comes to dealing with AV13-AV14 at least in the current codex. They've got plenty of Haywire, Melta and Lance weapons.

 Thaylen wrote:
AV13 will shut down scatterlaser bike spam pretty hard.

That's what the Wraithknights are for. The 160 shots for 1080pts (according to the title of another thread) leave a lot of room for a Wraithknight or two in an 1850pt list. And Vypers with Bright Lances, or Fire Prisms, or any other host of easily accessible weapons that are more expensive but still available in spam quantity in that 1-12 Auxillary thing.

Caederes wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So wait, anyone know the wording off the top of their heads about Sniper weapons and how they effect GCs? Because I wanna know if I can exploit my Deathmarks with their "wounding on a 2+" ability.

Sniper and Poisoned weapons only wound GCs on a 6. I'm pretty sure the Deathmark rule overrides that though.

@Thaylen
The only army I'm aware of that can spam AV13 is Necrons. Even so, Eldar are pretty set when it comes to dealing with AV13-AV14 at least in the current codex. They've got plenty of Haywire, Melta and Lance weapons.

Yeah, I'm assuming codex trumps rulebook in this sense, I just wanna make sure, so I can bring a squad every game against them.

I can't really think of too many armies that rely on reserves that might even get a chance to play past turn 2. Considering that the damage these guys put out you could find yourself tabled on turn 2 -3 with half your army still stuck in reserves.

How do we know that the eldar codex doesn't contain some sort of reserves minipulation that could keep your army off the table.

 Thaylen wrote:
AV13 will shut down scatterlaser bike spam pretty hard.

That isn't all they have though. They'll probably put 1/2 to 2/3 of their points in obsec bike spam with psyker support, (900-1200 in an 1850 list) and then snag anti-tank with the rest of the points. BA ally for some 115 point triple melta drop pod squads for example, or just whatever silly awesome anti-tank they get in their book.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I can't really think of too many armies that rely on reserves that might even get a chance to play past turn 2. Considering that the damage these guys put out you could find yourself tabled on turn 2 -3 with half your army still stuck in reserves.

How do we know that the eldar codex doesn't contain some sort of reserves minipulation that could keep your army off the table.

A Drop Podding army maybe?
Well if the Autarch is the same then he/she will provide a reserves bonus for Eldar, they might change that to affect enemy reserves as well though. Who knows at this point, I'm open to anything happening at this point after what they've done to Distortion weapons and Windriders.

and yet....plenty of numptys will go out and buy 30 jetbikes at $11 a pop and GW will smile.

bullyboy wrote:
and yet....plenty of numptys will go out and buy 30 jetbikes at $11 a pop and GW will smile.

The really silly thing about the Windriders is that I honestly bet the rules designers had no idea how ridiculous letting the entire unit take heavy weapons would be, especially seeing as the unit otherwise hasn't changed. What's worse is that they will get a clap on the back when both Windriders and Wraithguard start flying off the shelves...

I'm in disbelief about the Distortion weapons change too. But glad that I magnetized my wraithguard now.

M.

 Thaylen wrote:
AV13 will shut down scatterlaser bike spam pretty hard.

That really helps people with their brand new Skitarii armies.