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So basically if you have two Warpsmiths two Obliterator squads shoot twice. That definitely helps with their giant cost.

Outside of that the Objective Secured is nice and every character rolling twice on the boon table isn't a bad thing. I like regular CSM more than Tactical Marines so I'll take it at least once to try. Also cool that Heldrakes got partially fixed.

Maulerfiends gaining rage easily is so awesome.

There's potential here but it is still worse than the top 4 codices. My guess is that some formations will pop up for sure. Especially the 5 Maulerfiends!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the fact there's no way to get Plague Marines in here is garbage to me. Oh well.

My guess is Veterans of the Legions is like the drone formation in the Tau codex. Zero dataslate, but just lets you take them. That way GW can be like, see, you can take a cult troop.

The Helldrake one seems really really good. The cultist one is really great too.

I want to stick with the BL warband, but the option of special chars and ObSec is too good to pass up compared to pseudo preferred enemy. Not to mention you actually get to benefit from these rolls due the detachment.

Not so sure about the pack gaining rage easily. They're not a squadron after all. Still a pretty decent formation. Especially if we get the ability to give power of the machine spirit to a defiler.

I'll probably still stick to a CAD though, just so I can get my FW fix. Any chance of them updating IA13 to work with this?

This makes chaos marines a viable mid tier army now. I think they can all finally shut up until the Dark Eldar get some love. Please. Or must you whine for another 10,000 years?

At any rate I'm happy you finally got something good. You don't even have the rumored primarch yet either. The poor IG also need some love and orks now too.

 Gamgee wrote:
This makes chaos marines a viable mid tier army now. I think they can all finally shut up until the Dark Eldar get some love. Please. Or must you whine for another 10,000 years?

At any rate I'm happy you finally got something good. You don't even have the rumored primarch yet either. The poor IG also need some love and orks now too.

Seriously people moaning about Chaos players moaning (or any other army) is just as annoying. Lots of armies need sorting out, the game as a whole is all over the place. Lots of armies have reason to moan.

gungo wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Why are people even comparing CSM to BA anyway? Apples to oranges... BA is only a single chapter. A more accurate comparison would be Black Legion to BA, or Crimson Slaughter to BA.

Because that doesn't make sense since BA is a seperate codex that doesn't use any rules from the space marine codex because that's still considered a completely different codex. This is like saying dark eldar are the same as eldar.

Furthermore poor csm such a bad army it only got 2nd place at NoVa. Where was the closest BA army?

What was the list? I guarantee there's few or any actual Chaos Marines, probably just Daemons/KDK with probably a CS detachment or a BL detachment for the Cabal. that doesn't mean gak since virtually every Chaos list you see has barely any actual marines in it.

WayneTheGame wrote:

gungo wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Why are people even comparing CSM to BA anyway? Apples to oranges... BA is only a single chapter. A more accurate comparison would be Black Legion to BA, or Crimson Slaughter to BA.

Because that doesn't make sense since BA is a seperate codex that doesn't use any rules from the space marine codex because that's still considered a completely different codex. This is like saying dark eldar are the same as eldar.

Furthermore poor csm such a bad army it only got 2nd place at NoVa. Where was the closest BA army?

What was the list? I guarantee there's few or any actual Chaos Marines, probably just Daemons/KDK with probably a CS detachment or a BL detachment for the Cabal. that doesn't mean gak since virtually every Chaos list you see has barely any actual marines in it.

From what I've seen it was a Renegade Artillery army.

Running 3 Kytan in the trinity of blood formation is going to be utterly brutal.

 Eldarain wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

gungo wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Why are people even comparing CSM to BA anyway? Apples to oranges... BA is only a single chapter. A more accurate comparison would be Black Legion to BA, or Crimson Slaughter to BA.

Because that doesn't make sense since BA is a seperate codex that doesn't use any rules from the space marine codex because that's still considered a completely different codex. This is like saying dark eldar are the same as eldar.

Furthermore poor csm such a bad army it only got 2nd place at NoVa. Where was the closest BA army?

What was the list? I guarantee there's few or any actual Chaos Marines, probably just Daemons/KDK with probably a CS detachment or a BL detachment for the Cabal. that doesn't mean gak since virtually every Chaos list you see has barely any actual marines in it.

From what I've seen it was a Renegade Artillery army.

Ah yes I forgot about that one, the one spamming the Rapier weapons?

Anyways, I am unsure how to react to the leaks. They don't look terrible? But don't look good, although Raptors charging on deep strike is HUGE (I know that much) and I think from what I saw, the Warband gives EVERYTHING Obsec so that's good too I think. I also hav not actually played a game... can I get a brief overview from someone more experienced, does this make CSM (as in running actual CSMs not Cultist spam) a viable midrange army? As a fluff player that's all I want, to run a fluffy CSM force focused on Marines and not get my butt handed to me by default.

I don't see how it gives everything in the decurion Ob Sec. It says "All units in a Chaos Warband.."

Wow, if that's the case then there's tons of potential for any game that boils down to the last objectives.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
I don't see how it gives everything in the decurion Ob Sec. It says "All units in a Chaos Warband.."

That's what I meant, sorry. it says everything in the Chaos Warband detachment (or is that a formation? Sorry unsure of terminology) gets Obsec, which would mean Raptors/havocs/bikes/terminators etc. not just the regular Marines.

At glance this doesn't look bad. The Warband looks nice the Decurion (that's the Black Crusade force I guess) is nice with free VotLW. Seems like a good way to do a fluffy Black Legion type of force. Shame no legion tactics, but really was not expecting that. I just hope that it makes the actual MARINES a viable midtier army, not the normal stuff we see with cultist spam and then daemon allies to do the real work.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Running 3 Kytan in the trinity of blood formation is going to be utterly brutal.

It certainly would be if you could actually do that.

I'm happy with the formations, still would've liked some updates to older models to entice me back to CSM.

It is a mid range army now. I can easily see myself making some builds out of formations here if needed. It won't be the army that shakes the ITC to its knees though outside of some possible niche allies shenanigans.

However if your not a very good player of the game in the first place then no amount of special rules or super op units will let you win. Just a broad warning to those who think they are better than they are that if you don't do well with this instantly its probably not the army anymore but your skill level.

A comfortable and not at all incendiary comment to make from the confines of the favored Tau Empire player population

It's good advice for any player of any army. You don't improve your game by getting mad at the army and rules. You get better by rationally thinking through how you can do better. Maybe they do have the better army maybe not. You need to evaluate your losses to see what your doing wrong and to fix the problem.

Then again most people are about as effective at self evaluation as a wet sponge for picking up water.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Running 3 Kytan in the trinity of blood formation is going to be utterly brutal.

It certainly would be if you could actually do that.

Good thing you can.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Kytan_Daemon_Engine_of_Khorne.pdf

A Kytan Daemon Engine of Khorne may be used as a Lords of War choice in an army chosen from either the Chaos Space Marines, Khorne Daemonkin or Chaos Daemons Factions. When taken in a Khorne Daemonkin army, the Kytan Daemon Engine has the Blood for the Blood God! special rule (see Codex: Khorne Daemonkin). In addition, it may be selected instead of a Khorne Lord of Skulls in any Detachment where such a war machine is available.

 Gamgee wrote:
It's good advice for any player of any army. You don't improve your game by getting mad at the army and rules. You get better by rationally thinking through how you can do better. Maybe they do have the better army maybe not. You need to evaluate your losses to see what your doing wrong and to fix the problem.

Then again most people are about as effective at self evaluation as a wet sponge for picking up water.

Normally would agree but in 40k there are clearly disparate power levels. Skill can only go so far when you're playing at a severe disadvantage out of the game.

Anyways, it sounds like this supplment isn't the saving grace of Chaos (not that I think anyone thought it would be) but it's some good buffs to bring the army up a bit? That's all I need. I'm still torn between KDK or CSM but this book may help swing it towards what I really want which is a nice, fluffy Black Legion type of list that focuses on CSM, some daemon engines, no cult troops and some vehicles maybe.

I am especially liking that Raptor formation.

I think this will be a situation where two would be better than three. With three you have too much of your army invested in so few units. With two you have enough to get some other stuff.

Edit
It is true there are, but high skill can make all the difference sometimes. Too often I see unskilled players with terrible armies playing against armies that are only marginally better than theirs and they claim their army is the worst and needs buffs. It irks me.

Does anyone know if you can take Crimson Slaughter relics with these formations?

Also, really like the raptor formation. The models look really cool and now they are a bit usable.

 ashikenshin wrote:
Does anyone know if you can take Crimson Slaughter relics with these formations?

Also, really like the raptor formation. The models look really cool and now they are a bit usable.

Also interested in this because Crimson slaughter Possessed would be fething dope. 3++ beasts with shrouded and rending are actually pretty darn good I'd say.
The way the formation is worded (mutations from their table instead of "vessels of chaos table") seems like it's intended to work with both tables.

DaPino wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
Does anyone know if you can take Crimson Slaughter relics with these formations?

Also, really like the raptor formation. The models look really cool and now they are a bit usable.

Also interested in this because Crimson slaughter Possessed would be fething dope. 3++ beasts with shrouded and rending are actually pretty darn good I'd say.
The way the formation is worded (mutations from their table instead of "vessels of chaos table") seems like it's intended to work with both tables.

I was thinking the same thing. I just wonder exactly how you'd make it happen. I guess they would just have 1 result until the combat phase of the first turn (assuming they're close enough to the DP)?

Sure you can, but it only works once you're in combat (fight sub-phase) so it's not as good as you think. Still, it amounts to free storm shields in combat. Throw in a cursed earth and they have a 2++ in combat.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
Does anyone know if you can take Crimson Slaughter relics with these formations?

Also, really like the raptor formation. The models look really cool and now they are a bit usable.

Also interested in this because Crimson slaughter Possessed would be fething dope. 3++ beasts with shrouded and rending are actually pretty darn good I'd say.
The way the formation is worded (mutations from their table instead of "vessels of chaos table") seems like it's intended to work with both tables.

I was thinking the same thing. I just wonder exactly how you'd make it happen. I guess they would just have 1 result until the combat phase of the first turn (assuming they're close enough to the DP)?

The Daemon Prince would clearly need wings and MoN to keep him alive. He wouldn't be that dangerous and would mostly exist as a tarpit.

Throwing a boon on a daemon prince each turns sounds great.

Still no way to get berserkers to their target well. Even with fleet and +3 inches to charge.. they're still just as easy to pick off long before they reach their targets.

The only hope is that maybe the raptor talons or scouting flesh hounds could distract the enemy.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Running 3 Kytan in the trinity of blood formation is going to be utterly brutal.

It certainly would be if you could actually do that.

According to the Kytan rules, you can.

"A Kytan Daemon Engine of Khorne may be used as a Lords of War choice in an army chosen from either the Chaos Space Marines, Khorne Daemonkin or Chaos Daemons Factions. When taken in a Khorne Daemonkin army, the Kytan Daemon Engine has the Blood for the Blood God! special rule (see Codex: Khorne Daemonkin). In addition, it may be selected instead of a Khorne Lord of Skulls in any Detachment where such a war machine is available."

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Kytan_Daemon_Engine_of_Khorne.pdf

Roknar wrote:
Sure you can, but it only works once you're in combat (fight sub-phase) so it's not as good as you think. Still, it amounts to free storm shields in combat. Throw in a cursed earth and they have a 2++ in combat.

Technically the fight sub-phase takes place, even if there are not motions to be done during the phase itself. So they don't have to be in close combat for the formation benefit to take effect.

DaPino wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Sure you can, but it only works once you're in combat (fight sub-phase) so it's not as good as you think. Still, it amounts to free storm shields in combat. Throw in a cursed earth and they have a 2++ in combat.

Technically the fight sub-phase takes place, even if there are not motions to be done during the phase itself. So they don't have to be in close combat for the formation benefit to take effect.

I was looking through the BRB to find the words to that effect, as I could have sworn I read that at some point. Is it on a specific page, or just commonly understood or somesuch?