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They have this thing called market research, as I understand it.

and well thought out rules and game balance

Seriously though if all the veterens get jack of it, they are hardly going to be encouraging of tweenies playing GW games at their clubs and help them out with rules, painting etc. The more likely reply could be "Space Marines huh do you want to join in with us in (insert non GW game)"

GW may be the porche of miniatures but it'is the one on the side of the road missing wheels and a blown out motor.

You're missing the point - it's always been this way. They don't need to keep you for life, just through those young teen years. Enough of the 11-year-olds make it through to 20 or 25 before getting disheartened and dropping out to keep enough of a supply of "10-year veterans" going without needing 30-somethings like myself.

I had more value to Gw 10 - 15 years ago when I was younger than I do now, even though I spend more money now than I did then. GW main cash cow is the kids, Either that or they prefer kids to adults.

They like money. Kids overall spend more than we do because they're not paying for rent/mortgages/cars/computers/girls/holidays and so on...

It isn't so much that each individual kid spends more, it's that for every bitter, sassy vet there are 15 young kids just getting into the hobby and buying a new army. It doesn't matter that they aren't around in 5 years because there are a new batch of new kids to take their place.

Yes, that's exactly what I've been saying.

I left some meaning out of my last post, but it was along the lines of many of the kids stop buying miniatures as they get older and instead spend their money on all the junk I listed instead, and it's only the few of us who carry on.

I continue to think the money angle is greatly overblown.

It certainly has a psychological effect to see two comparable products priced differently. People will more often choose the cheaper one, and will certainly be irritated if their game is the more expensive. But that's just irritated. If it's really the best game out there, they'll pay the price.

It's also not about the cost of other things. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd sooner attribute it to the time taken by other things. It's not that GW is so expensive people have to give it up... I think people just find themselves going away from it, don't necessarily know why, but point to the cost.

The fact is, a box of Marines costs $30 or so, and it takes at least two weeks to paint it to a reasonable standard (assuming you've got other things to do). Is $60 a month so very expensive? People spend that in one night of drinking, one night out with the wife, etc. etc. It's not the price... It's the other things taking your time.

Some people are just going to leave the hobby. They have kids, a more demanding job, a new girl, whatever, whatever. That's going to happen. Where GW really needs to think about things is in the quality of their ruleset and their responsiveness to customers. They have to make every trip to the gaming table as enjoyable as possible. They have to make it easy to have fun with the game.

Some people are more dickish than others. Loose, messed up, sloppy rules bring out the inner dick, by creating chances to argue, loophole, whatever. If the rules are good enough, they restrain the inner dick in those who can't always control it themselves. That leaves the rest of us to have more fun. You can say "don't play with dicks," but if even one game in ten is riddled with dickery, that makes the game, perhaps, 20% more lame, and you're 20% less likely to play.

It's really pretty simple. In business there's a lot of sneaky tricks to play, a lot of little wins to be had, but the one real answer is to offer a product that's quality. There will always be haters, but if your product is for real, the market will respond.

so gamers are like the Imperial Guard, thousands die, but more take their place and the Big Cheese on Earth dont care. The the Big Cheese and GW dont understand is that when you outfit the newer troops with crappy gun and equipment they will go AWOL then you got no one left

It isn't necessarily that the minis are too expensive, just too expensive for their percieved value. Yeah you can easily spend $60 (or a lot more) on a night out with your friends or favorite lady, but you know you're going to get good food, good booze, and good laughs (for the most part). With the minis, all of the sudden a $30 box of minis isn't so valuable because you are paying money to have to do work (assembling and painting) and then play a game that may or may not end up in a big argument over how those toy soldiers fake hit each other with fake swords.

Keep in mind that this is only an example, but I think it gets the point across.

And also keep in mind that I don't personally feel that way at all because I get a lot of enjoyment out of the assembly and painting parts. And I think that the minis I like are well worth the money.

Wayfarer: I think your example of the mindset of somebody leaving the hobby is about right... I just think that the "I have to do work" or the "it's always arguments" is what comes first, and is a manifestation of dissatisfaction with quality. I don't think anybody has ever left the hobby strictly because of the cost. There's always going to be other factors.

Recently I've pretty much stopped buying GW... I just can't justify the cost relative to other things I can spend the same money on. I've been playing the last 10 years and the more I've stuck around the more bitter I've gotten about paying that much for GW's miniatures. I have several armies and will probably continue playing, but buying their stuff, nope. GW makes miniatures, they'd like us to believe that they're selling relatively limitless potential for entertainment, in the form of a hobby.

Posted By Phryxis on 05/26/2007 7:21 PM
It's also not about the cost of other things. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd sooner attribute it to the time taken by other things. It's not that GW is so expensive people have to give it up... I think people just find themselves going away from it, don't necessarily know why, but point to the cost.

Speak for yourself man.  I'd love to finish my Tau army and start a new Eldar army with those lovely figures, but there's no way I can afford it.  Literally.  It's not a case of wanting to do other stuff instead.  Its a case of "at these ridiculous prices, buying minis would overrun my entire budget for non-essentials."  And yeah, granted, I am not rolling in the dough right now, so maybe some adult professionals have more money than me.  Even a couple years back when my pay was a lot higher I could only toy around with buying a single plastic box set a year or so as an extravagance.

But when I started at the tail end of second edition, I was a penniless college student and bought infantry figures for roughly 5.99 a blister.  I could afford that.  About 5 years later for most figures that price has almost doubled.  That's unacceptable.  There is no rational justification for that kind of price increase.  While some figures are better sculpted than they were 5 years ago, not all of them are (see High Elf Archers).  And nothing is sculpted "twice as well" as the figures were 5 years ago.  The only thing even close to that much of an improvement is the quality of the graphic design of the 4th edition rulebook over the 2nd edition ones, but the rules themselves are certainly not twice as good.  Maybe twice as simple at best.

Some people may certainly get out of GW for their own nebulous maturing reasons, but don't dismiss every complaint against them for that reason!  Most people who know me will verify I've hardly grown up at all and if not for GWs ridiculous prices I'd still be spending my nights after work painting and playing with little army men.  My only complaint is that GW won't let me.

I guess I'll pipe in at this point. (although it is probably pointless)

I have pretty much quit playing 40K because of A) the overall crappy rules set that makes little sence, is contradictory, and changes from codex to codex, and B) that price of the figures is out of hand.

The rules are my main complaint. The basic rule book is constantly contradicted and overruled by different codexes, making the game cumbersome and annoying to play. The newer codexes are thin on flavor/fluff and are largely made up of recycled material dating back 10-15 years ago, with rules that make little sence from a gameplay standpoint.

The lack of support for several armies is also appalling and support for others is haphazard at best.

As far as price goes, if the game mechanics were tight and well written, I might be able to overlook the crazy price increases, but they aren't so the value of the figures has steadily plummeted from my point of view to a point where I no longer find any value in purchasing new figures. The old ones I have are just fine.

Sadly I have followed Mauleed's advice and moved on to Warmachine, a better game, where paying for the expensive figures has some actual value for me.

The point about GW prices is whether you consider there is any competition.

If you want to play 40K and you want to use the official figures, the prices are what they are, and you pay them if you can, or give up.

You can decide to play a different SF skirmish game instead. There are plenty of alternative rules and figures which are cheaper.

Or play historicals where there is a massive range of choice in periods, rules, scales and figures.

Well, obviously I'm in no position to tell you how your finances work out, but this surprises me...

You've picked a pretty tough example with Eldar. There's a lot of metal in the list, and it's not cheap. That said, I'll take the example of my own Eldar army, currently being painted... I have 20 Rangers as the core of my list. To get 20 of them, you'll pay about $80 (based on BWBits current price), so about $4 per model. No question, $4 for a single chunk of molded metal is tough.

I don't know how long it would take you to paint those 20 models, but it took me a LONG friggin time (highlighting camo is slow). I'd guess that it took me, at the very least, and mostly just for the sake of round numbers, two hours per model to paint them. It was probably closer to four hours, honestly. But if it's two hours per model, then I'm spending $2 per hour on the hobby. And that's not even counting the time I spend playing, which is effectively free.

So, given that anecdotal example, I have to ask: What are you doing with your time that costs LESS than $2 per hour? I know there certainly are things (World of Warcraft springs to mind) that will cost less, but $2 per hour just isn't that much. You'd have to play quite a bit of WoW to absorb the initial expense of your computer, your internet connection fee, your monthly WoW fee...

Hobbies, almost by definition, have an associated hourly cost. I guess if you're into pressing flowers, maybe it's approaching zero. But most hobbies and recreational activities are pretty significantly expensive.

The reason I bring all of this up, is because it's a caclulation I assume most people don't feel the need to do. I (again) assume that you just go to the hobby store, see the prices, and say "wow, I just can't afford that right now." I'm guessing you absolutely could afford it, but only if the hobby wasn't taking a backseat to other things. I don't know, maybe you're bringing in exactly enough money to cover food, clothing and shelter, and that's it, in which case there really is no more room (and in which case I wish you the best in having some better fortunes in the future).

Again, if I'm understanding you correctly, you've got the time and the inclination to paint an Eldar army, you just don't have the cash. So, given that you can't afford that army, what do you do with the hours that you would have spent painting and playing?

But that's the point isn't it? It's a cost benifit analysis. I want to do X, Y and Z. I enjoy all three equally. I only have enough money to do 2. If X costs very little, as does Y, and Z is substantially more expensive, guess which one I'll go for?
These days, I play a lot more D'n'D than Warhammer. D'n'D is practically free. I use the SRD and buy some minis every now and then, but Icould easily play the game without the minis. And then it's cost the cost of the dice I use to play...around 4 euro. But my friends who I GM for all buy a lot more stuff for the game, as they have more disposable income. I'm on a grad students wage living in a very expensive city in an expensive area and running a car in a country where doing that costs minimum 2000 euro plus petrol and services per year. I analysed the costs, and realised that D'n'D is more rewarding, cheaper and less likely to frustrate the hell outta me. WOTC provide much better support all round. Whereas I can stay with GW and wait 10 years for an update for my chosen faction. No thanks. That said, I wouldn't mind the odd game of fantasy, but I've got all my armies. I'd like an undead army too, but really, at the moment, D'n'D is a much more rewarding way to spend my leisure time, and leaves me with enough money for the odd comic book and pint every now and then too.
That's what GW must compete with. Not other mini games, but just other ways to spend leisure time. Make it cheaper, and suddenly my cost benifit alters significantly. BFSP galvanised me into buying another regiment of orcs and some trolls and wolf riders to flesh out my army to 2200 points for a map campaign. Because it was cheap, I ended up spending more.

I'm not saying that cost isn't a factor... I mean, I want to paint GW models, and I have a pretty good amount of disposable income, but if GW cost $500 a month, even though I could find that in my budget, I just wouldn't. It's totally unreasonable. Instead, I end up spending more like $25-50 a month, and that's really not that much. It's less than a tank of gas.

So, yeah, you're right that there's a point at which cost is beyond perceived value... But you are also talking about how much you enjoy the game. I think the cost is generally secondary to the enjoyment. If you really solidly preferred playing GW games, you wouldn't be counting costs against D'n'D. The costs are all really in the same general area. Free is actually pretty close to $25 a month.

In the end, all I'm saying is that I think that if people really thought about their motivations, it wouldn't come down to cost. It'd come down to enjoyment of the game, or lack thereof. Cost is a factor, but it's the sort of thing you think about after you realize you're just not having the fun you want to.

You are right. So what I'd like to see is GW making the game more value for money for me in the fun arena. With fantasy they do this just fine, the only thing stopping me playing fantasy is the fact that I moved away from my old group and haven't found a new one yet. Gonna start a club at uni in the Autumn which should fix that. (I said never again, but I need someone to play against)
Most of my contention with GW comes from 40K at the moment, specifically (shock for anyone who's read my posts) Orks. It really wrecks my fun when I have to wait years to get something done about my army. So I drift into doing other things.
Not sure how GW could address this, but a less SM saturated release schedule would be a start.

Though 25 euro/20ish dollars a month is a bit steep for me at the minute. I'll get back to you after I've moved apartment and paid off my car...
(Stupid incredibly expensive Dublin)

I'm not a Fantasy player, and I don't know the buzz in that community all that well, but my impression is that it's far, far more positive than 40K. It's a mystery to me why 40K is getting simplified and dumbed down (Chaos Dex will be the real measure of how much this is happening), when Fantasy, a much, MUCH more complicated game is still pretty well received.

And of course, Orks... It's just a total mystery to me how they've allowed themselves to drop that ball so many times. This thread is about GWs top level mistakes getting blamed on managers, and I don't know of a more clear example than the total disregard for Orks. Orks and Chaos are the two constants between Fantasy and 40K. They've been there for as long as GW has been a successful business. The way they're being ignored isn't just insulting to Ork players, it isn't just insulting to the integrity of the game, it's just ridiculously stupid business. Orks got the game to where it is today. Fire all the managers you want. If you stop doing what works, what do you think will happen?

Posted By Phryxis on 05/28/2007 10:40 PM
Free is actually pretty close to $25 a month.

Let me see if I can convince my cable company of that.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/29/2007 7:27 PM

Posted By Phryxis on 05/28/2007 10:40 PM
Free is actually pretty close to $25 a month.

Let me see if I can convince my cable company of that.

I'm sure yuor cable company would point out that, by the same logic, $50 is pretty close to $25.

Phyxis, we've now got an entire generation of gamers with a totally warped veiw of Orks though. People who think they should be dumb, mindless apes who can't hit the broad side of a barn.
People who think orks shouldn't be competitive, and wanting them to be is "un-orky" (tell that to Thraka)
People who think the clans are singular armies. People who think Orks don't "fit in" with the current universe.
People who think orks are a joke. That's a lot of momentum. When you play orks, you meet a lot of people who are like "Woah, cool!", and a lot of people who scoff and say "Orks? Right, this should take 3 turns." And the fact is, against some lists (notably mechanised Tau in my experience, and Nids) they are right. The only list I am confident against anymore is space marines, and that is because of one rule: Choppa. Well, two actually. Tank busta bomb aswell.
It saddens and angers me more than a game should. Whenever I read an interveiw I'm waiting for the guy to go for the throat over it, but of course I here "when will the next chaos/marines codex be out?" and "what's your favourite song?" The developers should be made to feel guilty as hell over this so that they can browbeat the suits.
At least in Warmachine and Hordes players know their faction will be looked after. Same in D'n'D minis. GW seem to have no qualms gaking on players for profit. And many players seem to see nothing wrong with this. (From the posts I always get defending the current state of orks. "space marines sell better!" well, *fudge* me sideways, I wonder why. By that brilliant logic, they should drop every line except space marines.

My feeling (I can't prove anything) is that veterans and the less popular armies have "positive externalities." These are benefits to the hobby as a whole that do not show up in direct purchasing behaviour and are difficult to account for by straight sales statistics.

For instance, vets probably fieldd a lot of nice looking models, and teach new players the rules, and lend armies and terrain for games. This kind of thing helps rope in new players. GW could do this through their shops but that costs money. Vets do it for free.

And a variety in armies is good for the game long term.
Marines Vs Marines Vs Green Marines Vs Red Marines Vs Grey Marines Vs Black Marines Vs Chaos marines Vs Eldar Vs Godzilla kinda gets old fast.

Posted By JOHIRA on 05/27/2007 8:15 PM

Posted By Phryxis on 05/26/2007 7:21 PM
It's also not about the cost of other things. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd sooner attribute it to the time taken by other things. It's not that GW is so expensive people have to give it up... I think people just find themselves going away from it, don't necessarily know why, but point to the cost.

Speak for yourself man.  I'd love to finish my Tau army and start a new Eldar army with those lovely figures, but there's no way I can afford it.  Literally.  It's not a case of wanting to do other stuff instead.  Its a case of "at these ridiculous prices, buying minis would overrun my entire budget for non-essentials."  And yeah, granted, I am not rolling in the dough right now, so maybe some adult professionals have more money than me.  Even a couple years back when my pay was a lot higher I could only toy around with buying a single plastic box set a year or so as an extravagance.

Yep. A 2000 point Tau army - saving tons of money by basing it around 3 Battleforces would cost my $570...

That's awfully hard to justify - it's more than a month's rent!

Posted By Asmodai on 05/30/2007 5:11 AM
Yep. A 2000 point Tau army - saving tons of money by basing it around 3 Battleforces would cost my $570...

That's awfully hard to justify - it's more than a month's rent!

Oh come on.  Think about it - a month's rent will only buy you a roof over your head for a month.  But a 40K army can provide years of enjoyment!  If you compare the amount you pay per hour of not being homeless to the amount per hour of having fun in an exciting and rewarding hobby that you can enjoy with your friends I think you'll see which is the more worthwhile way to spend your money.

I could only dream of having rent as low as that....

Posted By Janthkin on 06/01/2007 9:24 AM

Yep. A 2000 point Tau army - saving tons of money by basing it around 3 Battleforces would cost my $570...

That's awfully hard to justify - it's more than a month's rent!

I could only dream of having rent as low as that....

I live in semi-rural Canada. You live in So Cal.

Want to trade?

San Jose isn't exactly So Cal...