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QFT.  As far as I can determine it is the cost of GW's retail outlet network that is really bleeding them dry.  In that regard they are doing the right thing in cutting cost out from that infrastructure.

I still think they are over-priced to the end buyer by around 20-25%.  If they knocked that of the MSRP I really, genuinely think a lot of their customers might come back.

People have whinged about CItadel prices since the dark ages, but its only really in the last couple of years that the clamour has become deafening and really struck to a level that hurts GW.  Peg the prices back a couple of years and we may get somewhere.  Otherwise its bye-bye GW I fear.

GWUS sales are rising and they are in profit...why should they lower prices?

They don't need to lower prices so much as hire staff to make the White dwarfs not suck, proof readers who know abit about the rules to look over these codexes before they goto print, and to put out FAQ's for codexes that have come out.

Posted By carmachu on 05/13/2007 5:47 PM

So these Marine players will have to buy a couple boxes of troops to glue some Boltgun guys together so they can do 10-man Las/Plas instead of 5-man Las/Plas. Or they'll have to actually field that second box of Termies they bought just to get a second Assault Cannon to get some use out of it.

Which means more money than the SHOULD have to spend on an army that was previously "done".

I fear for my sisters army.

So...any time they add something new to SM's people get PO'd because the army was "done" and now they'll have to shell out for an Uber-armored skimmer Lascannon Battle Cannon vehicle of death?  I didn't hear any Chaos players complaining that their armies were "done" and now they needed to shell out for Defilers,Obliterators,Monstrous Creature Deamon Princes and the like when their last 'dex came out.  I thought half the fun of wargames was throwing different combinations of units out there and seeing how different things work together,not net-listing some tourney army and buying only those exact minis.  People aren't really complaining that they'll have to shell out some more money.  They're complaining because their army is getting nerfed.  But hey,if these disgruntled SM players are dumb enough to sell their armies for about half what they paid for them on ebay rather than shell out $35-$70 bucks for a couple of boxes of troops for their min-maxed armies and keep playing a game that they obviously enjoyed(otherwise they wouldn't have shelled out for the army in the first place),like I said,no big loss.

Posted By Osbad on 05/15/2007 12:03 PM

QFT.  As far as I can determine it is the cost of GW's retail outlet network that is really bleeding them dry.  In that regard they are doing the right thing in cutting cost out from that infrastructure.

I doubt it is that simple, I don't know how things work in the US, In the UK I just can't see GW existing without its retail network.  There aren't the sort of shops that woud stock much GW stuff, and practiaclly none that would have any gaming in their stores. With nothing to pull people into the hobby, or places to game, they would have a fraction of the customers they currently do. Relying on Toys'r'us and hobbycraft type places to sell your stuff might cut costs but also probably means a lot fewer customers, those places just don't generate the interest that town centre stores can. If they did have a lot less custom theyd have to ramp up the price of kits to recoup the cost of making them.

From my own perspective I wouldn't still be buying stuff if it wasn't for the stores, I don't know anyone personally who plays so without the ability to just go down to one of the stores in the area I would probably not bother as it is the only way I can get games. I'm fortunate to live near one of the stores with large gaming area (probably about 16 large tables), which brings in the more mature players in the area. Its only natural that a lot of the younger players are going to drift away from the hobby, the stores probably go a long way to keeping those who remain interested still playing and paying, rather than giving up cos their friends aren't into it anymore.

i.e. I would think the retail outlets go a long way in both recruitement and retention of customers

Posted By Whatever on 05/15/2007 4:26 PM

 I thought half the fun of wargames was throwing different combinations of units out there and seeing how different things work together,not net-listing some tourney army and buying only those exact minis.  People aren't really complaining that they'll have to shell out some more money.  They're complaining because their army is getting nerfed.

Not that simple.

People with beautifully painted, converted and individualized armies are complaining.

It takes me about a month to paint a squad of Space Marines. Since I'll need 14 new Space Marines to bring my army up to snuff, that's 6 weeks that I won't be able to spend painting my Guard or one of my Fantasy armies. It's awfully hard to field painted armies when GW keeps changing/invalidating them faster than you can paint.

I also have each model numbered with army and squad badges. This means I can't just shuffle squads around to whatever optimum configuration suits Jervis' mood this week.

However, on future armies, I'll leave them off. It's not worth putting squad markings on my Guard and then have GW alter the rules so they need to be fielded in units of 12 or 16 or something in the next Codex.

So (1) it costs more money, (2) it removes the ability to customize and personalize your force, (3) it discourages painting, (4) the better painted your army is the more it hurts you.

Explain to me again why I'm supposed to be happy about this.

It's not the end of the world, but when you've finally finished painting your Space Marine army after 11 years, it is a trifle bit annoying to have the rules changed so you need to suddenly paint up a whole new collection of Marines to make your force legal again. (11 years ago there were combat squads, but all the models in that army have been repainted and labelled since, so it didn't effect me then.)

I likewise think infrastructure is where changes need to be made, but I honestly believe GW simply carries too much inventory year round.  I believe (I cannot get the financials to load) that last year they had around $10,000,000 in inventory at year end.  Someone can correct me if this was incorrect, but my point is that GW could cut IMMENSE costs if they could enter into a just-in-time inventory deal with their suppliers.  The size, longevity, and popularity of Games Workshop all make them a reasonable risk, and this would allow the corporate office to cut down on the costs of storing large quantities of product.  It would also allow GW to respond more quickly to changes in the market, only producing units of merchandise that will actually sell.  This would reduce the size of their manufacturing plants, cutting power, salary, and rent costs.  

Games Workshop stores could have smaller back-rooms, once again reducing rent costs, because all of their inventory would be on the shop floor.  With a well-designed JIT inventory system, GW could reduce the in-store quantity of many sets to one or two - especially in the UK where shipping from Nottingham is measured in a few days rather than a week plus.

I really feel GW would gain so much from moving to Just-in-time.  and I meant what I said about their risk value.  GW products have been around for decades, and they generate considerable revenue.  If given as part of a restructuring plan, I think they could avoid any issues in entering such a long-term deal with a materials supplier and shipping organization.

Ignore this>>>>

Posted By redstripe on 05/14/2007 7:02 AM

Posted By Broon on 05/14/2007 4:40 AM

Posted By Kilkrazy on 05/12/2007 7:21 AM


GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both.

 

That's not true, I used to buy lots of minis and no games. There are a lot of painters out there.

 

Would you seriously buy -another- marine, just to paint?

That's where Tom Kirby needs to go, next.  He needs to go to the studio, slap all the sculpters, take away all their boxes of plastic space marines, throw them in the garbage and say:

"Sculpt me something that doesn't look exaclty like all the other crap you've produced for the last five years.  Why can't you all be more like Jes?  And Jes, I've canned the manager that has kept blocking your staff-car and it's been green-lighted."

I'm biased in this regard.  I was never interested in the power-armored marine.  I came from the other faction, the tread-head, who liked the tanks, vehicles, and big guns.  Aside from Forgeworld, there has been nothing produced by Games Buckshot in the last five years that was for me.

"Oh, and Jes, we need a crazy tentacle-oriented Tyranid monster to grab the fat anime fan-boy demo, a corsetted gun-nun with incindiary rocket-launcher, and... and... what if we had this ork, but he was riding on a giant squig... and the squig had these huge tusks and ahh, strapped to both the tusks were gretchin and the gretchin both had big shootas... oh well, I'll let you work out the details on that one."

I haven't bought a marine for a while. I will probably buy one of the new veterans (the one with leg raised standing on a rock at least), and I have been meaning to get the IF terminator fella for some time now. I should do it before he gets to £15. The last one I bought was the Terminator chappie.

But anyway, I do occasionally but GW minis to paint, I'm currently working on a 54mm chrono-gladiator. I have bought a fair amount of 54mm GW stuff from eBay in the past few years, a combination of the scale, quality, and unique IP compels me to.

Ignore this too.

Posted By puree on 05/15/2007 5:39 PM

I doubt it is that simple, I don't know how things work in the US, In the UK I just can't see GW existing without its retail network.  There aren't the sort of shops that woud stock much GW stuff, and practiaclly none that would have any gaming in their stores. With nothing to pull people into the hobby, or places to game, they would have a fraction of the customers they currently do. Relying on Toys'r'us and hobbycraft type places to sell your stuff might cut costs but also probably means a lot fewer customers, those places just don't generate the interest that town centre stores can. If they did have a lot less custom theyd have to ramp up the price of kits to recoup the cost of making them.

From my own perspective I wouldn't still be buying stuff if it wasn't for the stores, I don't know anyone personally who plays so without the ability to just go down to one of the stores in the area I would probably not bother as it is the only way I can get games. I'm fortunate to live near one of the stores with large gaming area (probably about 16 large tables), which brings in the more mature players in the area. Its only natural that a lot of the younger players are going to drift away from the hobby, the stores probably go a long way to keeping those who remain interested still playing and paying, rather than giving up cos their friends aren't into it anymore.

i.e. I would think the retail outlets go a long way in both recruitement and retention of customers

The US seems pretty different from the UK, at least around here (California). Most GW stores I've been in are small (probably around 500sq. ft. or less) stores in large shopping malls. There is usually only room for two to three 4x4 tables. There isn't really a lot of gaming that goes on in these stores...at least not the kind that most people on here would be interested in. Mostly they just do demos for new people, and occasionally they'll run some regular games if there aren't new people wanting demos.

While they get a lot of foot traffic from kids in the mall, I honestly don't think they generate very much in the way of sales as I rarely see anyone buying product while in there. More likely than not, people still buy their product on the internet at a discount. I think that this is why the only times I've ever seen people buy anything are when parents buy their kids the starter box or a batallion/army box. Usually this is a one time sale though and rarely is the store able to retain the new kid for very long due to the lack of actual gaming space. Additionally, most of the staff in these stores is very pushy and are constantly trying to sell you a starter box or a battalion box for your current army or a new army. It's incredibly frustrating to be "used car salesman'd" like that when I already own four armies, and the guy didn't even bother to find that out before trying to push another one on me. It's just bad retailing in general. While I may have wanted to buy something before, I certainly didn't want to after the pushiness. While I can understand why they do that, it generally doesn't leave me feeling very good when I go in there and I instead just go to the local game store to buy, or buy online.

To compound these problems, rent in these large shopping malls is very very high. They are competing for space with big name retailers. So the net effect is that these stores just aren't very good at generating a profit nor retaining players. Basically if anyone still wants to get a serious GW game played, they will still have to find a local store with more space to play in.

Before their US GW store strategy, most GW product was sold in local game stores or on the internet. The benefit of the local game stores was that they would generally be in a lower rent area and thus have a lot more space for gaming. The local game stores around here usually have about 10-15 tables, terrain you could use, space to do hobby related things, etc. While there would be a lot less random foot traffic than there would be in the malls, I would say that the gaming community for GW games was a lot more healthy back then. People would recruit their friends via word of mouth rather than just having people get into the game via random chance, thus helping in player retention. And people in my game group when we used to play GW at our local game stores, would also buy product regularly from it as well. For one, to support the local store, and two because we'd be playing regularly and want to have a new unit to try, or maybe more of a certain unit. Or we'd see someone else with a cool army that we'd want to try and pick that up as well.

After the GW stores started opening though, the local store started pushing more and more non-GW product to the players for whatever reason (whether it was GW clamping down on them or their own choice, though I suppose understandable since GW was now trying to compete directly with the local store), and basically a lot of our local players shifted from GW product to other companies, be it PP, FoW, etc. As it is now, almost no one plays GW games around here anymore, so even if you wanted to play a GW game, you pretty much have only one night a week at the local store to play now, or you'd have to play in the crappy conditions of the GW mall stores. So the end result is that most people just don't play GW games anymore because it's too much trouble. Like a lot of people have said, the jettisoning of the independent local game stores has really hurt GW, and has given rise to a lot of the alternate game systems out there. When GW left the local independent stores, all the other games rushed in to fill the vacum.

What does work well for GW though are their Battle Bunkers. The one I went to was the LA Battle Bunker in southern California. These are much larger spaces (more out of the way too, but tons of people still show up anyway) that emulate the local game stores with room for about 15-20 tables, premade terrain, painting/modeling space, and a store. Here people can basically do everything related to the hobby. My friend who works there says that they generate close to 10x the sales of the next closest store in their area. And their success financially with these types of stores sort fits my own observation as well. You need to have a friendly gaming space and sales will naturally follow (assuming people like the game). The lack of pushy staff in these places also helps a great deal.

I think in the near future you will probably see more of these opening up, coinciding with them shutting down their mall stores. At least that would be the smart thing to do.

The small mall stores you describe are probably the equivalent of many of the Uk stores, a handful of 4*4 tables. The larger 'battle bunker' stores describe the store I'm more likely to go to for a game, there are quite a few scattered around the UK from what I gather.

In almost 40 years I've never seen an independent store with the sort of gaming room you describe in the UK, maybe they exist but just not in the areas I've lived. Of course GW has been the game shop in the UK since my early teens, so maybe the potential competition never got of the ground. Also of course I can remember when GW didn't just sell their own stuff, I used to get much AvalonHill/Spi/Victory stuff as well as a lot of Role playing stuff from them, it was at the time a essentially an 'independent'. I remember my parents would go on an occaisonal trip to York, I would tag along with one of my friends just so we could visit the GW store and see the latest board games/role playing stuff etc. Ah the memories, it must be 22 years ago that I was standing in York GW store debating with my friend whether to buy Imperium Romanum 2 and command the roman empire, or stellar conquest and conquer the stars, bought the space game - bought IR2 a few years later and it was a much better game.

Oh and you get the pushiness in the UK as well, but i think brits in general are less inclined to be cold hard pushy like US sales people, whilst it annoys me a bit if I'm in a store that I'm not known at, at least the sales pitch is a bit more conversational/friendly than you describe and usually starts with 'do you play' or 'do you collect any armies'. Then again maybe the fact that im older than most of the staff helps me in that regard.

As for alternative games in the UK, I know of only 1 shop that stocks the warmachine/hordes/at43 stuff. I don't know much about them, as depsite looking at the figures I've never seen the point of buying something I'm just not going to ever play - I simply have no idea who else might play them. The shop that sells them only sells them, it doesn't run games or anyting like that. That is where GW still wins hands down in the UK.

 

Ireland is pretty much similar to what Puree describes with the difference that we only have two GW stores, both in Dublin, with very limited play space and no battle bunkers. Play is pretty much through college clubs or in each others houses.
(I would have put one in Cork and maybe limerick too, but apparently supersaturating Dublin is the way to go)
Warmachine and Hordes are sold by a very small store with very limited gaming space.

Ireland is pretty much similar to what Puree describes with the difference that we only have two GW stores, both in Dublin, with very limited play space and no battle bunkers. Play is pretty much through college clubs or in each others houses.
(I would have put one in Cork and maybe limerick too, but apparently supersaturating Dublin is the way to go)
Warmachine and Hordes are sold by a very small store with very limited gaming space.

I'm familiar with three GW shops in London, Richmond, High Street Kensington and The Plaza on Oxford Street. None of them have a lot of table space and probably can't hold more than one big game. I don't know if this is typical of GW shops all over the UK.

I think a lot more wargaming goes on in pub function rooms and various community centres such as parish halls and sports club houses than in GW stores. It's certainly easy to find such groups by web searching Google or sites like TMP (in London, anyway...)

I've never heard of regional battle bunkers in the UK but it is a small country and not too far to go to the Nottingham base or to the big shows, ifyou want a solid day of gaming.

Damn yanks have everything laid out on a platter and they're still complaining eh?

Its our platter, we can put as much beef on it as we want.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/17/2007 5:59 AM
Damn yanks have everything laid out on a platter and they're still complaining eh?

Of course in the US (at least the South), any FLGS that survive will have decent game play areas.  If there's no room to game there's no reason to be in a GW store.  The FLGS will have space and competitors games.

 

@ Acheron - Do you go to the GW store in the Oakridge mall? I've played a couple games there and always make a point of stopping by when I'm up visiting my Dad in Los Gatos. You're right, pretty tight in there but still a good amount of games being played.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I only just moved to San Jose recently. Most of my GW store experience was over in the SF store. The SF store was exceptionally small and mostly geared toward the kiddies/new players it seemed. I stopped in the Oakridge store a few months back and saw mostly the same as the SF store, though granted I didn't stick around for very long as it didn't seem like it was really worth it (compared to playing at the FLGS instead).

I live in San Luis Obispo, the only FLGS we have is terrible. Boxes are displayed about 10 ft in the air, blisters are on 3rd floor under lock and key (so I have to track someone down, then go up there with them so they can unlock it for me) and there is no gaming space. If I am up in SJ, I'll let you know.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ah that does sound pretty terrible. The FLGS here in San Jose/Oakland are great. Huge play areas, easy access to the blisters, helpful and friendly staff, lots of events (though not much in the way of GW stuff anymore). I've found the same down in the LA stores as well. I guess maybe my view has been skewed by all the really nice FLGS I've been to.

I guess free to use gaming areas are only viable where rents are cheap.  They have some promotional value for the GW product, but I expect they'll be viewed as another cost to be cut by senior management.

GW's business model is bizarre.  They alienate veteran gamers by focusing on LOTR at the expense of 40K and the "Specialist Games" (aka Abandoned Games).  Then they increase the prices to levels kids/casual gamers can't afford.  So who are they actually trying to sell to?  

Posted By Wolfstan on 05/12/2007 10:08 AM

Whilst I am at it  Is there not the small possiblity that the market for GW stuff has reached saturation point and that the churn rate / new gamers is dropping?

I mean I'm 38 years old and have 3 x 40K armies, and apart from tweaking them I'm unlikely to do a complete army again. I sold 2 x 40k armies and a dwarf army because I didn't have the time to play with them.

Currently I'm in the middle of building 2 x Confrontation forces, 1 Warmachine faction, a Hordes faction, expanding my Urban War force to Metroplis scale as well as looking to build up my AT43 armies.

So I've not gone off gaming, I'm just interested in other systems. 40k has gone stale for me and although the rules are ok and work, I would like a more complex version of them, something that brings a challenge back in to gaming. 

Mind the fact that you can get up and going with the systems quickly and cheaply helps.

Yup, you make a lot of sense. And the second point is why the company needs to stop the older player drift by acting a wee bit nicer towards them.

@scipiou you have hit the nail on the head. GW does not need the veteran gamers like you said . So all the Bitching in the world wont help. Veteran gamers are in the minority. Having banners poking fun of Jervais Johnson is as much power as these veterans have. Does Jervais care?? Hell no he dont give a poo. Why should he. These vets who can spend alot of money still dont come anywhere near the amount the kids generate. GW will keep on doing what it does. If they are really suffering badly enough they will change but obviously they are not.

But, it doesn't follow that we have to be delighted about it.

Well some people complain and moan thinking they are the majority and are correct in thier opinions about every aspect of GW and some take delight in those people delusions.

The main value of us, and by that I mean the older gamers, is that we provide a lot of the hands-on shiney that younger players see, and want to emulate. As in our (gulp) painted(!) armies and conversions and stuff like that. I mean, they're hardly going to turn our money away, but imagine if any of us took our best-painted and modelled force to a primary/elementary school to show the oldest kids, or a middle school, or to a high school to show the youngest kids. (school types may vary in your area). - That would pretty much immediately sell a whole bunch of kids on the game as long as they (or their parents) could afford it. I mean WD and the intarnets are good for that buy there's nothing like seeing a cool army "in the flesh".
.
It's the same reason their retail stores have such a hobby focus - show off the minis painted by staff which makes people buy 'em, and also by running painting tutes and allowing for in-store painting, it creates a social atmosphere, encourages the kids to get a-painting, and makes the whole thing less intimidating.
.
About Jervis, and the studio guys, from everything I know about them they are pretty much all true gamers who go there for the love of games and the hobby. Most of them (at least the old guard) are actually much moreso historical gamers, possibly for the same reasons we grow into FoW, etc but they do care. OTOH, in a position like that you become a little detatched from reality (they get their minis and figures free, within reason, hence modelling melta-bombs isn't a big issue to them) and they have to try to not listen to much of the internet's complaints, or at least do it through filters like Tyranid Tim used to because the noise level is easily overwhelming, and frankly, when you're being attacked by someone online every few minutes you have to learn to ignore it for your own sanity. Not sure about Dakka, but I do know that several of them lurk on some of the major boards though.

I know I've not bought any GW merchandise for about two years now. I fully blame the dumbing down of the rules and the stupidly expensive plastics for my personal GW departure. I'm not sure where that fits into their profit loss, but it might be just a hint at something that they are missing.

I don't think veteran gamers are the minority. 80% of 11-years who start wargaming probably give up by the time they're 16, but veterans continue throughout their lives with occasional breaks for studying, having children, etc, and often carry on into retirement.

OTOH veterans are less likely to buy exclusively GW stuff. Most of them probably satisfy themselves with one or two 40K or WFB armies and buy a lot of things like Napoleonics and Ancients where GW does not compete. (Well, it does in Ancients but only for rules, not for figures.)

And every year there is a fresh new crop of 11-year olds.

So I don't know who brings the most revenue and *profit* to GW, which is their key concern.