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This can't be true. GW sells miniatures. Kirby knows this, he said it. The game is second fiddle.

And there in lies the problem. No one is going to buy overpriced models for a game with major flaws....

Fix the game and the models might sell....

>>And there in lies the problem. No one is going to buy overpriced models for a game with major flaws....

>>Fix the game and the models might sell....

Carmachu is right.

GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both. When things are going well this is a strength because GW get a double dose of users' cash, plus some extra on terrain bits, paint and so on, and everything happens in GW shops. But when things start going badly, it's a serious weakness, compounded by the huge amount of retail space they maintain.

Now they have problems of quality and/or cost with their rules and their minis.

Posted By Zubbiefish on 05/12/2007 5:54 AM
GW has been a business for a long time. So has every other mini manufacurer.

Buh?  'A long time'?  I think I must ask you, how do you define a long time?

When I started in the hobby, I was buying Heritage Lord of the Rings figures.  Where are they now?  Where are the members of their cohort- Grenadier, Ral Partha, Minifigs, Microarmor, Marauder & Citadel?   Gone, like wind on the meadow, like snow on the mountain.  We shall not see their like again.  Now we have Old Glory, Battlefront, Privateer Press, Games Workshop (I know, Citadel/Marauder, I know...  dramatic license) Rackham, Corvus Belli, and Reaper. 

As to the topic at hand: I think Kirby is in trouble.  I am sure the Board is unpleased with his performance.  Muchly unpleased.  Hence the rather desperate attempt to improve the profitablility by cutting costs.  If this RIF doesn't work, look for another round of firings/closings in the third or fourth quarter, this time in the UK.  And if that doesn't work, look for Kirby to be fired.  The oracle hath speakethed.  Heed.

The way they treat the non-GW carriers is kind of abyssmal. A friend and I had a little store going a few years ago and when we tried to set up terms with GW they quoted us a percentage that was barely better than Alliance Games was offering and we had to place an initial order for one of everthing. The price quote was something like $10K. Now, this isn't that massive an investment for a real store but we were a couple of guys trying to make a start on literally a shoe string budget. Basically, they want to be the only source for their product, which is great but their product is too cost prohibitive to entice new players. I know this is the same arguement everyone throws up but people could really get into the game for a hundred dollars more people might. As it stands they keep raising the price on all the basics so how do new people break in? They don't.

Having said that, I disagree with the statement earlier in this thread that the sculpts are bad. Having played for just a few years I've seen most of the models get better and better. Not all, mind you, but enough to impress me from a quality standpoint. I do agree that the improvment in quality does not justify the continual price hikes. Bringing this back round to the point, it's cost cost cost that is hurting their sales and therefore hurting their stock. Sucky managers or not, the product just isn't as sexy when the price keeps rising. Just my two cents

Seth

Posted By Wayfarer on 05/11/2007 10:07 PM

Don't be so quick to assume that GW is dead. Yes they have some serious waking up to do but I doubt that they are flat out lieing about the source of their problems in continental europe. Sure it may not be the entire issue, but you never know, the managers over there in those 35 bad stores might actually suck.

I'm too good at maths, so I could be wrong here, but what are the odds of 35 individual managers being able to screw up GW in mainland Europe?

Whilst I am at it  Is there not the small possiblity that the market for GW stuff has reached saturation point and that the churn rate / new gamers is dropping?

I mean I'm 38 years old and have 3 x 40K armies, and apart from tweaking them I'm unlikely to do a complete army again. I sold 2 x 40k armies and a dwarf army because I didn't have the time to play with them.

Currently I'm in the middle of building 2 x Confrontation forces, 1 Warmachine faction, a Hordes faction, expanding my Urban War force to Metroplis scale as well as looking to build up my AT43 armies.

So I've not gone off gaming, I'm just interested in other systems. 40k has gone stale for me and although the rules are ok and work, I would like a more complex version of them, something that brings a challenge back in to gaming. 

Mind the fact that you can get up and going with the systems quickly and cheaply helps.

Posted By Kilkrazy on 05/12/2007 7:21 AM
>>And there in lies the problem. No one is going to buy overpriced models for a game with major flaws....

>>Fix the game and the models might sell....

Carmachu is right.

GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both. When things are going well this is a strength because GW get a double dose of users' cash, plus some extra on terrain bits, paint and so on, and everything happens in GW shops. But when things start going badly, it's a serious weakness, compounded by the huge amount of retail space they maintain.

Now they have problems of quality and/or cost with their rules and their minis.

I dont particularly find many of warmachines models as good looking as GW's. However, the game is solid, so the models I do buy to play with.

 

Rackham's models are pretty much better GW's. But the game is as great...so by GW's logic....rackham should be outselling everyone because they have pretty models.

 

Doesnt work that way.

Well, you can only buy so many space marines before you've "caught them all" so to speak.
Maybe a little diversity in the release schedual would do them some good.
It's kind of grimly satisfying to see all this, but I hope they fix this problem and move forward.

Job cuts are happening in the UK as well as "mainland Europe".  The 12 Cell (Area) Managers are allegedly being sacked and having to reapply for 6 remaining jobs.  Also there is already an opportunistic programme of shutting stores that are no longer profitable - Enfield was the latest when the landlord upped the rent.

Posted By Wolfstan on 05/12/2007 9:56 AM

Posted By Wayfarer on 05/11/2007 10:07 PM

Don't be so quick to assume that GW is dead. Yes they have some serious waking up to do but I doubt that they are flat out lieing about the source of their problems in continental europe. Sure it may not be the entire issue, but you never know, the managers over there in those 35 bad stores might actually suck.

I'm too good at maths, so I could be wrong here, but what are the odds of 35 individual managers being able to screw up GW in mainland Europe?

Out of how big a number?  Could be quite good odds.  They could also just be cutting the bottom-performing 10%-25% (or whatever percentage they feel like).   Even if it's not that large a total number of stores, 35 managers might represent 20-odd who might have been trained/managed in turn by a bad regional guy, and a few other miscellaneous folks they considered to be less than competent.

Or were you just doubting the likelihood that a certain group of managers was responsible for a larger problem with GW in the region?  That makes more sense, but if they are a large enough percentage of the sales in that area, and they really are mismanaging their sales operations, they certainly could create a big problem for the company.

Hmmm.
How long do they wait before deciding "no longer profitable" I wonder?

I dunno, if it's anything like that dead horse "LOTR Bubble" excuse they've been flogging for three years now it could be quite some time. As I've said before, I really, really do not want GW to fail, but I think the only way the root of the problem (Kirby & Co.) will get flushed out is if this slump continues (perhaps to the point of a hostile takeover, which could be disastrous). Despite the problems GW stubbornly refuses to wake the hell up and make the necessary changes to re-connect with their disgruntled core customer base.

I am sure I posted something about this a bout 6 months ago or sooner but I was told by my rep when I was working at a Brick and Mortar shop that GW had extended its contract with the LOTR folks. for like 8 more years! He told me that LOTR was the 3rd "core" game and it was going no where. So buy that itself GW refuses to acknowledge that problem. I dont think iLOTR is the sole cause of this crazyness but it could not have helped when the bubble broke. I just dont see why you would hold on to some thing like that in the face of these sort of problems. I guess they are looking foward to some time in the future but I cant see what they are seeing.

I think the free BA codex (which is going to be available on the GW website after being published in WD) is a step in the right direction. The BA codex honestly seems pretty well balanced, both as compared to their old list, and (more tellingly) as compared to the missteps in the DA codex. It's a long way from perfect, but it seems a sign that they're listening to some feedback. Improved rules, made available for free, are a nice gesture to the fans.

I agree with you there, even if my cynic GW hating side is screaming "MORE POWER ARMOURED ARMIES?".
It is nice and balanced, and the Blood Angels have been a while without an update. Free stuff is always good too- like the specialist games stuff.
I'd love to see better previews etc, like WoTC do with their miniatures- they give official previews and really build up excitement about the next release.
It's a good strategy I think.

It wasn't long ago that GW were bleating that they wern't going to put any army lists, in the WD mag and they weren't allowed in Tournaments unless it was a CODEX publication.

So yet again they change their merry tune.

I wish they'd just release 1 big Space Marine codex with all the chapters in it and be done with it.

I'd swear the managment is run by a bunch of bipolar people.

I have to second Jezza. Didnt Jervis or someone say, no more WD lists? I'm confused in what GW's doing.

Free playtesting like a smart company I hope. It'll probably be their highest selling WD in years also.

I think GW is starting to figure out that part of their struggles is that they are very slow in getting armies out.  Many players are hesitant to buy models for their current armies until their new 'dex comes out.  However,the new BA list is going to spur players of that army to buy new stuff,mainly because a lot of units that were useless to them before,like Terminators and Devastators,are very viable in their new list,so current players will want to get those.  Others may be going out and stocking up on Jump Troops and such.  Releasing lists in WD is going to help GW by stimulating purchases for those lists.

All in all,I don't really see 40k dying.  40k is to minis games what AD&D was to rpg's.  Yeah,the rules aren't the best and are clunky in parts,but it still has a huge following and is played heavily.  It can stand a massive revision,a'la D&D 3.0,but I can't see it dying.  I think GW is starting realize that it's core rules are too simplified,and that's part of the reason for releases like City Fight and the forthcoming Apocalypse. 

Anyone who has been in a company suffering a round of redundancies will know that the axe does not fall on the incompetent, it falls on the people who are disliked by the people in charge of choosing the victims. In this way, highly competent staff are often canned by incompetent line managers.

So GW's cuts are unlikely to improve performance at the coal face, though they will reduce staff costs at the bottom line (this must be offset against the generous redundancy payments that workers get in most European countries.)

If GW's problems are more deepseated than just a few badly performing stores, the cuts will do nothing at all in the long term.

I know several people who have quit the game because of the rumors surrounding the possible rewrite of the Space Marine codex. They spent a lot of money to build their new armies and now they have to worry about GW nerfing it. With all the other armies that really really need a new codex, such as orks, I cannot blame them at all.

- Greenie

Another Gem of GW marketing I went to a Games Day in England a few years back and there were about 6 of us at a Mordheim table (all of us 20-25) and were told by the fella at the table we had to Scream and yell out when rolling dice and killing things. We said "what" and he said "sorry guys I have to tell you to do it" .
I personally couldn't have thought of a better way to alienate older games who don't want to carry on like pork chops.
This was a few years ago, do you still have to scream out and carry on at their games days?

Yep. Mandatory Waaagh every 5 minutes. That's why this year I'm gonna be working at Games Day (Kommando program) and I'll be at the modelling tables, far away from the Big Game waaghfest.

EDIT: Deleted for being a slow.

Posted By Green Bloater on 05/13/2007 9:33 AM
I know several people who have quit the game because of the rumors surrounding the possible rewrite of the Space Marine codex. They spent a lot of money to build their new armies and now they have to worry about GW nerfing it. With all the other armies that really really need a new codex, such as orks, I cannot blame them at all.

- Greenie

  That's funny, because they sound like complete morons to me.  They're quitting the game (which they presumably enjoy) because of a rumor that GW will be releasing a new Codex, which they are not obligated to buy anyway. 

Yep. It seems like a bit of an over-reaction. Though I suppose that they might be able to get a better return selling on EBay now than in a couple years when the new SM book comes out and there's a glut of people leaving the hobby, driving down prices.

Aside from that, I don't see any reason not to wait and see.

Posted By Whatever on 05/12/2007 9:49 PM

However,the new BA list is going to spur players of that army to buy new stuff,mainly because a lot of units that were useless to them before,like Terminators and Devastators,are very viable in their new list,so current players will want to get those.  Others may be going out and stocking up on Jump Troops and such.  Releasing lists in WD is going to help GW by stimulating purchases for those lists.

Exactly.  This is why when the BA codex finally comes out assault squads will be back in Fast Attack.  What?  You bought a whole bunch of jump packs?  Oops!

Then they will release a SW list in White Dwarf that makes wolf scouts Troops and blood claws Elites.  And then a DA list that makes predator destructors Troops, scouts Heavy Support, tactical squads Elites, and vindicators HQ.

"Whaa...wtf?...I will give you something to yell and scream about buddy!"

Seriously, that is the most ridiculous quote I've heard about a GW Event. Instant Gold.

And answering a question a few pages back: The german codecies are decently translated. Nothing to criticize there. Doens't make the rules better, but still. I have the feeling that the translators call some of the Uk guys and ask if they either meant the rule that way or another way (aka. rule queries) and write it in german accordingly. Apart from that, I try to get the english version of all the codecies and rulebooks.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. Abadabadoodaddon gave me an idea: Why no Armored Company Marines? Wouldn't that boost vehicle sells for marines?

Posted By Pariah Press on 05/13/2007 12:31 PM

Posted By Green Bloater on 05/13/2007 9:33 AM
I know several people who have quit the game because of the rumors surrounding the possible rewrite of the Space Marine codex. They spent a lot of money to build their new armies and now they have to worry about GW nerfing it. With all the other armies that really really need a new codex, such as orks, I cannot blame them at all.

- Greenie

  That's funny, because they sound like complete morons to me.  They're quitting the game (which they presumably enjoy) because of a rumor that GW will be releasing a new Codex, which they are not obligated to buy anyway. 

I wonder if those same people would have quit if GW was deciding that the redone Space Marine codex was going to get buffed up even more than it already is?  Sounds like disgruntled "power gamers" to me,and no big loss to the gaming community as a whole.

I mean seriously,people complain about "obsolete" minis when lists get redone,but three-quarters of the time the minis aren't unusable,just sub-optimal.  Yeah,I've been burned on IG Griffons and Leman-Russ Exterminators,but very rarely have I seen this happen.  So these Marine players will have to buy a couple boxes of troops to glue some Boltgun guys together so they can do 10-man Las/Plas instead of 5-man Las/Plas.  Or they'll have to actually field that second box of Termies they bought just to get a second Assault Cannon to get some use out of it.  My heart cries for them,it really does.  It's the price people pay for being out there on the competitive edge of any game.  40k isn't nearly as bad as CCG's or CMG's,where a year after you've bought cards/minis,80-90% of what you bought is worthless in competitive games.

Posted By Schepp himself on 05/13/2007 2:38 PM
I have the feeling that the translators call some of the Uk guys and ask if they either meant the rule that way or another way (aka. rule queries) and write it in german accordingly.

Really?  I dunno, that almost sounds a little too much like GW having its act together.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the translators had to call up the mail order trolls instead.  Or D6 it.