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Which means more money than the SHOULD have to spend on an army that was previously "done".

I fear for my sisters army.

Your sister plays 40k? Cool. How often does she kick you around the table?

Posted By mikhaila on 05/13/2007 6:03 PM
Your sister plays 40k? Cool. How often does she kick you around the table?

Carmen's sister whispers into my ear every morning in bed about how he cant fight his way out of a wet paper bag, tactically...

Seriously though, I fear for the sisters as well. They were the epitome of balance during the latter 3rd ed, early 4th ed era. I cant see them getting much more unperpowered.

I guess the only direction they can go, is up... but with GW, ya never know until the ax falls.

That's assuming they even continue to support sisters.  I could certainly see them going to mail order only and then dying a slow death.  But maybe if GW really does make an inquisition codex covering all 3 branches they'll include rules for sisters.  Or maybe they'll just give inquisitorial stormtroopers the option to upgrade their hellguns and carapace armor to bolters and power armor for +5 pts each or some such nonsense.  Have fun!

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/14/2007 1:18 AM

That's assuming they even continue to support sisters.  I could certainly see them going to mail order only and then dying a slow death.  But maybe if GW really does make an inquisition codex covering all 3 branches they'll include rules for sisters.  Or maybe they'll just give inquisitorial stormtroopers the option to upgrade their hellguns and carapace armor to bolters and power armor for +5 pts each or some such nonsense.  Have fun!

  But only if you take St. Celestine as your HQ choice. 

Posted By Kilkrazy on 05/12/2007 7:21 AM


GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both.

 

That's not true, I used to buy lots of minis and no games. There are a lot of painters out there.

Posted By Wayfarer on 05/12/2007 9:44 PM
Free playtesting like a smart company I hope. It'll probably be their highest selling WD in years also.

Smartest thing they've done in years, too (along with Cities of Death).  It'll drive some SM sales, WD sales, and maybe more importantly, make players feel that something is happening with other armies and in the game in general. 

I understand the business reasons for their release schedule, but I think they're finding it's just too hard to maintain enthusiasm for the game when players are waiting months and years for an army release that interests them.

I work as an Engineer, designing various engine parts for manufacture.  One thing I can say is that if you continue to produce the same product for a long time, you expect to see the cost per part to go down, not up.

The theory is that suppliers should be getting more efficient.  Faster set ups, shorter runs, less scrap, etc etc.

So why does the cost of an unchanged plastiic kit keep going up each year?

I can almost understand the cost creep of new kits, but not really.  A plastic injectiion mold costs 30-50 thousand dollars in the US, and is good when properly serviced for litterally hundred of thousands of parts.

So if we assume a design team has a total salary of $250k/year total, for 4 or 5 guys, who churn out say 10 kits per year, that is $25k per kit, at the extreme high end.  Add in the $50k high end of a mold, so that is $75k total in kit over head.  Since I am being generous, lets assume they only sell 10 thousand of that particular kit.  7.5$ per kit.  Incidental costs could be as high as 5$.  One unskilled barely literate operator can monitor 6-8 automated machines for 8 hours, banging out hundreds of parts per hour, shipping and storage costs should be low...  so you are looking at $12.50 for the cost of a very expensive kit.

To do really well, a company hopes for 40% margin, so a very expensive kit should cost $20.83.  Or $19.99 for an approximate standard price.

Oh yeah, it is the managers in Europe that are hurting sales.  Not the 35$ troops boxes.

--------

Maybe GW will learn a lesson from themselves and start putting warhammer, and 40k into LIVING RULEBOOKS online, including codexes.  You go to a tournament, and a rule is unclear to people, ta da, update it.

They could still sell the books.  And admitedly they would loose some in sales, but for the most part, the people who will download a codex and use it exclusively are mostly doing so already, illegaly.  Most, not all, but most people who play a particular army will want to have a copy of their rules on hand, not on computer.

Yay for continuous rules updates.  Yay for answers to ambiguity.

And hell, if they hire some decent programmers (admitedly a cost so maybe 24.99 for the above mentioned kit box) they could pass the rules through some style sheet software, and you could have the old format, or the new format, or god-emperor forbid,  user defined formats.

-------

And in regards to the Alleged New Space Marine Codex on the horizon.  I am worried, not because my Assault Cannons are going away, but because I have a bunch of conversions which are about to be invalidated, and I had more planned.  Before I saw the rumor I had a 50$ bits order for GW and another for BWB to finally finish all my squads out the way I wanted.

Here comes my assault sargeant with a thunder hammer, oh, what do you mean I may not be able to take that...

Here is my scout sargeant with a storm bolter.. that either

How about the dev sargeant with the combi-bolter... yay

Vet Squad sarge with master crafted lightning claw and bolter-melta...  well crap

Yes, literally every sarge in my army is a conversion, and how many of them will still be legal in a new style list?  I don't play tournaments, I don't play to win at all costs, I just play for fun, with a characterful army.

I might get lucky, maybe they will add Thunder hammers as an option across the board, and have them with points broken out for how effective the model would be with them.  I am not confident. 

 

Ok, Rant over

Posted By Broon on 05/14/2007 4:40 AM

Posted By Kilkrazy on 05/12/2007 7:21 AM


GW is unusual compared to other wargame companies because GW produce figures and rules that are highly tailored to each other. (WHFB less so than 40K but still quite a lot.)

You'd never buy either of them if you weren't going to buy them both.

 

That's not true, I used to buy lots of minis and no games. There are a lot of painters out there.

 

Would you seriously buy -another- marine, just to paint?

That's where Tom Kirby needs to go, next.  He needs to go to the studio, slap all the sculpters, take away all their boxes of plastic space marines, throw them in the garbage and say:

"Sculpt me something that doesn't look exaclty like all the other crap you've produced for the last five years.  Why can't you all be more like Jes?  And Jes, I've canned the manager that has kept blocking your staff-car and it's been green-lighted."

I'm biased in this regard.  I was never interested in the power-armored marine.  I came from the other faction, the tread-head, who liked the tanks, vehicles, and big guns.  Aside from Forgeworld, there has been nothing produced by Games Buckshot in the last five years that was for me.

"Oh, and Jes, we need a crazy tentacle-oriented Tyranid monster to grab the fat anime fan-boy demo, a corsetted gun-nun with incindiary rocket-launcher, and... and... what if we had this ork, but he was riding on a giant squig... and the squig had these huge tusks and ahh, strapped to both the tusks were gretchin and the gretchin both had big shootas... oh well, I'll let you work out the details on that one."

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/14/2007 6:53 AM
So why does the cost of an unchanged plastiic kit keep going up each year? 

Because GW :heart:  $$$.

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/14/2007 6:53 AM
Yes, literally every sarge in my army is a conversion, and how many of them will still be legal in a new style list? 

Well, that's what you get for converting.  I hope you learned your lesson.  And let this be a lesson to all of you.  If you can't make it with the parts provided in the box, don't expect it to be an option in the future.  This is to make 40K more accessible to new players.

Afterall - why should your srg get to have lightning claws?  Just because you have a credit card and can order bits online?  One day when I'm bigger I'm gonna have a credit card too!!!!  And then I'm gonna go on the internets and not even ask mommy first!!!!!!!

See?  This is fun and balanced for everyone.

:(

Credit Card?  That conversion tool a power fist, 3 of the tines off an old dozer blade, a fist insgnia from the very old Imperial fists army box, and hours and housrs of learning how to use putty to sculpt for the first time.

Oh and for everyones amusement, I scratch built a landraider, based on the epic model, using the bits from a leman russ, a rhino, and a chimera.  Spent hours and hours on it, took it to a store tournament, and about three months later they announced the new land raider was coming.

So why convert, because I am good at it, way better than I am at painting, and if GW isn't gonna support that part of my hobby anymore, I'll find a company who will.

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/14/2007 6:53 AM

So if we assume a design team has a total salary of $250k/year total, for 4 or 5 guys, who churn out say 10 kits per year, that is $25k per kit, at the extreme high end.  Add in the $50k high end of a mold, so that is $75k total in kit over head.  Since I am being generous, lets assume they only sell 10 thousand of that particular kit.  7.5$ per kit.  Incidental costs could be as high as 5$.  One unskilled barely literate operator can monitor 6-8 automated machines for 8 hours, banging out hundreds of parts per hour, shipping and storage costs should be low...  so you are looking at $12.50 for the cost of a very expensive kit.

To do really well, a company hopes for 40% margin, so a very expensive kit should cost $20.83.  Or $19.99 for an approximate standard price.

Oh yeah, it is the managers in Europe that are hurting sales.  Not the 35$ troops boxes.

That's an excellent breakdown on the cost of a kit.  Except you missed a step.

After GW manufacturing gets done taking it's 40%, then the kit is sold to a retail seller (be it indepent or internal to GW).  The retailer is all so looking for a 40% return.  The $20 kit is now marked as MSRP of $33 to allow for the sellers margin.  Which puts the price in the same ball park as GW's actual retail price.

Actually 40% is just an estimated agrigate for both.

For example the company i work for sets the MSRP so that direct sales are a little over 40% (42-45, more if we can sneak it)

To distributers/dealers we only get 10% or so, but we get 10% of a much bigger number.

Some of the stuff we are sourcing through asian crapfacturers we are hitting 70+% margin on direct sales, but that is the exception, and a willingness to take asian crud.

 

 

 

 

Also note that GW has come out and said that manufacturing costs on their plastic kits less than 10% of what they retail them for. To put this in perspective, when GW employees use their ("buy at cost") discount to buy product, GW is still making a profit.

Actually, I think their a bit overpaowered, when played right with the acts of faith, to be honest.

GW just cant get its head out of its ass long enough to see whats really going on. And with blame it on everyone else Kirby at the wheel I'm sure they'll have to fall alot further before any real attempt to turn things around will really get under way, Its sad because I really would like to get back to enjoying many of their games, but I just cant bring myself to handover money and reward them for bad behavior and stupidity. Luckily I have a ton of figs and their games bought before they got to this point, and so do most of the vets, that saturation along with those second hand figs from people getting out of the hobby and the stagnation of new figs and new ideas is really alowwing alot of us to continue playing while not supporting GW, its biting them on the ass in my opinion. And since GW has been churning out more space marines than anything else for a long time now, theres more secondhand marines around for first timers to buy up instead of handing their newbie money over to GW as well. I love it, their tunnel vision on Marines is also biting them on the ass.

good bad and ugly decisions aside, I'm going in to buy some cool models and paint them! (not even space marines!)

Deitpike is right. GW does some damn stupid stuff, but they make some nice minis, so I guess i'm going to keep buying them.

I recently bought some harlequins, because they really are beautiful models and I'm having a blast painting them, but other than that I have my armies and don't feel the need to go out and buy any more models.

GW still does good work sometimes(Cities of Death) but they really need to improve their hobby content.  White Dwarf could be a huge sales booster.  The problem is that it is just one huge advert.  If the articles and battle reports were more in depth, they would appeal to kids and older vets alike.  Reintroducing rules and experimental lists into the systems would make it easier for players to feel like each issue has something for them.  When I look at the magazine and find a five page description of how to paint the Master of the Ravenwing, it seems like it should be free online content.

I like the game, but won't be starting any new armies soon.

White Dwarf is a huge missed opportunity. With the BatReps they could go into detail about their lists, their strategy, and what they did when stuff started to go wrong.

This is instead of taking a Dev Squad with four different heavy weapons just 'cause the new Dev box was released that month.

BYE

I'm glad I started my Exodite project. Having your own miniatures and relying on the count as rule is the best answer to any codex rewrite - just change and adapt. You may even switch to an entirely different book. Custom space marines chapters can do that to a point - I know at least two DA players that will stick to the SM 'dex - but some players will surely cry when GW changes the Traits system.

Oh, and if GW finally detected a "problem" with their Uber-Powerful assault cannon, they could just change it - for example, no more rending on vehicles - and the game balance issue would be solved in the twinkling of an eye. Why a redux one year from now when a single downloadable PDF can solve everything?

Posted By Kotrin on 05/14/2007 11:45 PM

Why a redux one year from now when a single downloadable PDF can solve everything?

Because it makes them money, a chance to re-release the codex as an updated product. New articles in White Dwarf, new items on the release calendar, hobby (ahem) events at stores, maybe even a new bunch of space marine scuplts thrown in for good measure.

Money speaks in GW land. Its just a shame that they don't know what to do with it when they have it, and then go on to lose it all on useless projects. Warhammer online anyone?

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/14/2007 11:32 PM
White Dwarf is a huge missed opportunity. With the BatReps they could go into detail about their lists, their strategy, and what they did when stuff started to go wrong.

This is instead of taking a Dev Squad with four different heavy weapons just 'cause the new Dev box was released that month.

BYE

Given the trend with the new Terminators rules and Codex: DA generally, I wouldn't be surprised if four different heavy weapons became mandatory for Dev Squads in Redux anyway.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/15/2007 10:41 AM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/14/2007 11:32 PM
White Dwarf is a huge missed opportunity. With the BatReps they could go into detail about their lists, their strategy, and what they did when stuff started to go wrong.

This is instead of taking a Dev Squad with four different heavy weapons just 'cause the new Dev box was released that month.

BYE

Given the trend with the new Terminators rules and Codex: DA generally, I wouldn't be surprised if four different heavy weapons became mandatory for Dev Squads in Redux anyway.

Heh. Given the trend with the new Terminators and Codex: DA generally, I wouldnt be suprised if you only get one heavy weapon for dev squads in Redux anyway. For balance....

Well, what are the contents of the dev squad box?  Maybe they'll do something like:

0-1 marines may replace their bolter with a heavy bolter or missile launcher.

0-1 marines may replace their bolter with a heavy bolter or  lascannon.

0-1 marines may replace their bolter with a multi-melta or plasma cannon.

0-1 marines may replace their bolter with plasma cannon or lascannon.

Posted By RanTheCid on 05/14/2007 8:41 AM

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/14/2007 6:53 AM

So if we assume a design team has a total salary of $250k/year total, for 4 or 5 guys, who churn out say 10 kits per year, that is $25k per kit, at the extreme high end.  Add in the $50k high end of a mold, so that is $75k total in kit over head.  Since I am being generous, lets assume they only sell 10 thousand of that particular kit.  7.5$ per kit.  Incidental costs could be as high as 5$.  One unskilled barely literate operator can monitor 6-8 automated machines for 8 hours, banging out hundreds of parts per hour, shipping and storage costs should be low...  so you are looking at $12.50 for the cost of a very expensive kit.

To do really well, a company hopes for 40% margin, so a very expensive kit should cost $20.83.  Or $19.99 for an approximate standard price.

Oh yeah, it is the managers in Europe that are hurting sales.  Not the 35$ troops boxes.

That's an excellent breakdown on the cost of a kit.  Except you missed a step.

After GW manufacturing gets done taking it's 40%, then the kit is sold to a retail seller (be it indepent or internal to GW).  The retailer is all so looking for a 40% return.  The $20 kit is now marked as MSRP of $33 to allow for the sellers margin.  Which puts the price in the same ball park as GW's actual retail price.

QFT.  As far as I can determine it is the cost of GW's retail outlet network that is really bleeding them dry.  In that regard they are doing the right thing in cutting cost out from that infrastructure.

I still think they are over-priced to the end buyer by around 20-25%.  If they knocked that of the MSRP I really, genuinely think a lot of their customers might come back.

People have whinged about CItadel prices since the dark ages, but its only really in the last couple of years that the clamour has become deafening and really struck to a level that hurts GW.  Peg the prices back a couple of years and we may get somewhere.  Otherwise its bye-bye GW I fear.

They won't do something like that now. I mean really....

I feel like that guy in on Monty Python. The Colonel that states "That's Silly!! Enough of that! On with the next skit!!"

They put together and paint the stuff for show, so one of each shows up as it is more for display. Makes for silly batreps as few people would ever do that, though I have seen it. It's why I like the reports where people use their own armies. Much more real to life....

Posted By Jezza on 05/12/2007 5:45 PM
It wasn't long ago that GW were bleating that they wern't going to put any army lists, in the WD mag and they weren't allowed in Tournaments unless it was a CODEX publication.

So yet again they change their merry tune.

I wish they'd just release 1 big Space Marine codex with all the chapters in it and be done with it.

I'd swear the managment is run by a bunch of bipolar people.

Well I for one would much rather hear them change their tune every once in a while than stick to something ridiculous they said at one point or another.

As for 1 marine codex, I've been clamoring for that since 2nd edition.  All the crazy sub codexes end up being one of 2 things: 1) so broken that no one uses the base codex anymore except for "fun" 2) so under powered that no uses the sub codex except for "fun".  With the glacial release schedule that they currently have, I'm inclined to say that sub codexes are the worst thing to hit 40k since overwatch.

I noticed they have recently started sales calls to a local indie I used to work for to try and get them to carry thier product again. Shafting local indies a few years back is were it all started to go wrong IMO.

The dev squad box comes with 2 each of Lascannons, Hvy Bolters, and Plasma Cannons, and one each of Missile Launchers (guess they figure you should have enough from Tac Sqds) and Multi-Meltas. With combat squads, what you get actually works pretty well.

Ozymandias, King of Kings