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quite honestly.. someone needs to show me some case law that allows a company to stop me from selling my properly purchased product how i want.

they want to claim intellectual property then fine dont use their pictures

if i break down my own bought product, use my own pictures, how i sell them is my own business

and until i see some case law stating otherwise my response to GW is to go straight to hell. I do believe there is this thing called restraint of trade, and monopilization. I dont know how it works overseas but if someone has the guts to tell GW to go pound sand im behind them

Now if the warstore has an account with gw i can see why they would comply. Because if they do not GW will close his account.

Now anyone can buy from a distributor it would just cost an extra 5%. Are you all willing to pay that cost? if so ill start a bitz service right away.

RLE, there isn't any case law that I'm aware of, but I'm pretty sure that *I* don't be the guy who pays the lawyers to set the precedent.

Well, there are two factors, of course, to every legal challenge:

1) the legal nature of the case
2) the practical nature of the case

Since even a victory over GW at the earliest possible stage (a motion to dismiss) would probably run over a grand, it's an expensive proposition, regardless of how right you are.

As to the actual legal issues, I wouldn't even know where to begin a search on this type of caselaw. I do know that GW has copywritten virtually every unit type, so for example having a webpage with "Dire Avenger" bitz would violate GW's copyright.

GW can always exert pressure through the distributors ( I think alliance carries GW), and use the contract to shut off the supply of product.

I'm sure if the legal issue was truely cut and dry, somebody would have challenged GW on it by now.

Ravenous wrote:What's worse is GW ceasing to sell mail order only items (all the bitz I might add) to the indy stores at their retailers discount of 50%. If they want them they have to pay the same as the rest of us. It's typical GW though, screw the little guy as much as possible and still lose money. I don't understand how the company seems to think it's policy of "screwing over your customer base = profit".

Hmm, No.
1) Retailers don't get 50% off anything. Max discount is 45%, in the US at least.
2) I can still place orders through mailorder at the same discount I've always been able to, 35% off.
3) The change in bitz that has arrived, is simply one hell of a lot less bitz. I can still order the entire bitz catalog, and get my discount on anything Mailorder sells. They just don't sell as much.
4) I'm actually not really feeling too screwed over as a retailer. Now, as a gamer, I will miss all those bitz. We will certainly sell less bitz now, but I can still get anything that is available, and have full access to anything Mailorder gets.

Polonius wrote:Well, there are two factors, of course, to every legal challenge:

1) the legal nature of the case
2) the practical nature of the case

Since even a victory over GW at the earliest possible stage (a motion to dismiss) would probably run over a grand, it's an expensive proposition, regardless of how right you are.

As to the actual legal issues, I wouldn't even know where to begin a search on this type of caselaw. I do know that GW has copywritten virtually every unit type, so for example having a webpage with "Dire Avenger" bitz would violate GW's copyright.

GW can always exert pressure through the distributors ( I think alliance carries GW), and use the contract to shut off the supply of product.

I'm sure if the legal issue was truely cut and dry, somebody would have challenged GW on it by now.

I would love to hear that GW called Alliance...If you wanted to be around for the death of GW that would be their death knell they would get sued for colusion sp? and a few other things i dont remember the actual names for my law classes were 20 years ago

ill break it down for you

i buy from distributor x

i then have the legal right to sell my product anyway i see fit. if i can comply with copyright law then GW can go pound sand, im not selling it new or maybe i a. But selling things aftermarket has been going on longer than gw has been around so there is some case law already established. now with start up costs of about 4k i could do a full on Bitz shop... once done i would send a direct letter to gw telling them what im doing and begging them to interfere

If they so much as even breathed on me wrong can you say counter suit... its not a question of david vs. goliath its the question of right and wrong

Im not the biggest fan of TWS for some other reasons but if they closed down because of the account angle i can respect that but if they did it for the fear factor then ... i have a different opinion

Mikhalia is absolutely correct with the numbers i posted this in another thread already or maybe this one i dont know

Even if the case law is cut and dry, it's not worth doing.

GW can drag this on for years because they've got the resources and incentive to do so. I see no reason why they wouldn't counter-sue for misappropriation of IP and copyright infringment. At that point, the smaller guy is locked into a death spiral that only ends with bankruptcy.

If you want to win, you need to be willing to spend very serious amounts of money at a rate of $200+ per hour. Minimum.

And then, the judge or jury might get things wrong, and render the wrong verdict.

Plus, there's appeals.

And when all is said and done, you might see any judgement and award cut down to a pittance.

So you could easily be right, with the law and facts on your side, and still lose everything to a bunch of high-priced lawyers. Or a small mistake.


For reference on just how stupid stuff can get, check out groklaw.net - SCO has a lawsuit that has cost both sides millions upon millions all for nothing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Even if the case law is cut and dry, it's not worth doing.

GW can drag this on for years because they've got the resources and incentive to do so. I see no reason why they wouldn't counter-sue for misappropriation of IP and copyright infringment. At that point, the smaller guy is locked into a death spiral that only ends with bankruptcy.

If you want to win, you need to be willing to spend very serious amounts of money at a rate of $200+ per hour. Minimum.

And then, the judge or jury might get things wrong, and render the wrong verdict.

Plus, there's appeals.

And when all is said and done, you might see any judgement and award cut down to a pittance.

So you could easily be right, with the law and facts on your side, and still lose everything to a bunch of high-priced lawyers. Or a small mistake.


For reference on just how stupid stuff can get, check out groklaw.net - SCO has a lawsuit that has cost both sides millions upon millions all for nothing.

I couldnt agree with you more
however, with the sad state of GW'S financials do you think they will be able to spend the millions it will cost to pursue or defend the suit? Probably not

thats the wonderful thing about retainers John, its up to the lawyer to get the work done to get his cut. Not to mention all the bad press GW would get from such a nasty court fight and it would go public

there is the mentality at GW that what works under UK law is also good for the US.. i think we all know that doesnt work here

its all academic anyway... they closed down for whatever reason

sad but thats the way the ball bounces

Rle68 wrote:there is the mentality at GW that what works under UK law is also good for the US..

Not sure where you get that idea, since it's only GW US that is restricting internet sales. There is no such restriction in the UK, or anywhere else in the world.

This was solely GW US's doing. Nothing whatsoever to do with what works in the UK.

GW only needs to spend enough to bankrupt the other guy, which is quite a bit more than any game store (or game store consortium) can reasonably afford.

Retainers only work when the lawyer has a shot at rolling the dice for big money (i.e. GM), or a nearly sure thing. In the case of a money-losing company tied to a niche market, in a country with the most Draconian IP laws in the world, no lawyer is going to accept such a case on retainer. The odds aren't high enough, and the potential payoff is too low.

If it becomes a large enough fight over IP rights, with the potential to further expand corporate IP rights internationally, Disney will pick up the entire tab and GW won't need to spend another penny.

GW's lawyers are quite good at understanding US IP law, which is why they're only pulling this stunt in the US. They know they don't have a prayer anywhere else in the world, so that is why the US is like this.

I would love to hear that GW called Alliance...If you wanted to be around for the death of GW that would be their death knell they would get sued for colusion sp? and a few other things i dont remember the actual names for my law classes were 20 years ago

ill break it down for you

i buy from distributor x

i then have the legal right to sell my product anyway i see fit. if i can comply with copyright law then GW can go pound sand, im not selling it new or maybe i a. But selling things aftermarket has been going on longer than gw has been around so there is some case law already established. now with start up costs of about 4k i could do a full on Bitz shop... once done i would send a direct letter to gw telling them what im doing and begging them to interfere

If they so much as even breathed on me wrong can you say counter suit... its not a question of david vs. goliath its the question of right and wrong

Im not the biggest fan of TWS for some other reasons but if they closed down because of the account angle i can respect that but if they did it for the fear factor then ... i have a different opinion

Mikhalia is absolutely correct with the numbers i posted this in another thread already or maybe this one i dont know

You are incorrect. Leegins Vs PSKS, heard in the Supreme Court, pretty much rules that a manufacturer of a product can tell a retailer or producer how much the product can sell for.

Which means if GW wants to tell all its indie retailers they have to sell without a discount....they have to. If they tell a distributor like Alliance that the products it sells have to be sold at X price....thats what they have to be sold out.

Of course, prior agreements can curtail this.

You can read some of how this applies in a blog from Ryan Dancey, formerly of WOTC: ( actually, it looks like the blog has been removed, but you can read the responses, or do a google search for Ryan Dancey Supereme Court and read what other bloggers have said.) http://web.mac.com/rsdancey/RSDanceyBlog/Blog/Entries/2007/6/28_Earthquake!.html

What I like is that Dancey supports what I have said earlier in this thread, which alot of "experts" have refuted, without proof...that is, online discounters hurt Brick and MOrtar stores, which are needed to recruit people into gaming.

When I first read Dancey's blog, it was like being vindicated....

What's so hard about this? If GW makes it too difficult to carry the product, stop carrying it. Many stores have. If consumers feel GW is neglecting them, they should stop giving them dollars. FLGSs carry many other fun games (or can get them...)

Other wise shut up and shell out. ;-P

jmurph wrote:What's so hard about this? If GW makes it too difficult to carry the product, stop carrying it. Many stores have. If consumers feel GW is neglecting them, they should stop giving them dollars. FLGSs carry many other fun games (or can get them...)

Other wise shut up and shell out. ;-P

Many stores have.....it's my understanding that GW has added something like 25% more stores carrying their product...taking into account these many stores dropping the line...which means GW is expanding.

But you are correct...instead of whining that you cannot afford GW products, you should go play other games. Golf is a fun game, everyone should try that.

Heneral Gobbs wrote:instead of whining that you cannot afford GW products, you should go play other games.

It's pathetic that you:

A). Think that's a valid argument.
B). Think that's a valid solution.

BYE

General Hobbs wrote:Many stores have.....it's my understanding that GW has added something like 25% more stores carrying their product...taking into account these many stores dropping the line...which means GW is expanding.

It depends on what percentage have dropped the range and how much stock each are selling. We won't see the full picture until next summer.

Why golf and not Flames of War or Warmachine or AT-43?

I think GW is within their rights to do what they're doing, but I also think it is outside the spirit of the hobby they're in the business of promoting.

If someone wants to get around GW's bullying they need to start their company and run their site out of one those other countries, Canada lets say, that GW can't get away with this and then set up a "distribution facility" for the bits and GW stuff in the US.

Would that work?

And, that's a lot of hoops to jump through for something that might not really be worth it, business-wise.

I really, really, don't want to argue either side in this, but don't mind popping in some points:

-correct that GW, at least in the US, has been adding a lot of new independent accounts. Or returning ones. They are much better to deal with in the last few years.

-A manufacturer does have some rights on how their product is to be sold, and recently, even at what price. It can't be arbitrary, and does rely on the agreements they have with distributors, who then pass on the rules to who they sell to. IE. WOTC tells Alliance it can't sell to an online discounter, and Alliance has to agree to that, or risk not getting product from WOTC.

-Warstore/Neal/BWBitz may have a more complicated agreement with GW. Last I knew, they were considered a distributor by GW. This gives them a better discount over other independent stores, but also comes with a lot more restrictions.

-There was an odd case years and years ago, where Mavel stopped various small manufacturers from using their products to make other products. Things like 3-D displays made from trading cards, or laminating a cover from a spiderman comic onto a clockface. The claim was that the goods purchased from Marvel, through their distributors or stores, were being used in a way not intended by Marvel, and that the incorporation of their copyrighted products to make something else, which was then sold, violated their copyright.

Not sure if the last one actually was held up in court, or if everyone just quit doing whatever they were doing when they got the cease and desist letter.

Question: The original BWBitz had agreed with GW not to use a shopping cart with their bitz, and to not use pictures of GW product (I think?). Is that the problem now, or is GW objecting to even the sale of broken up product.

The latter would be odd, since it sure isn't competing with their own bitz service, now that they pretty much nuked that themselves.

George Spiggott wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:Many stores have.....it's my understanding that GW has added something like 25% more stores carrying their product...taking into account these many stores dropping the line...which means GW is expanding.

It depends on what percentage have dropped the range and how much stock each are selling. We won't see the full picture until next summer.

Why golf and not Flames of War or Warmachine or AT-43?

I picked golf randomly. Or maybe because in my region there are alot of golf courses, and several game stores where Flames of War sells a bit and Warmachine and AT-43 are sucking up overhead and inventory.

I could have picked Settlers of Cataan, or squash. The point is, I agree with the poster. Rather then complain about prices, complain about business practices most people don't understand, just stop buying GW product and go play something else.

It's like dating a woman who makes you miserable....you are only putting yourself through the misery...ditch her and find someone who treats you well.

Hmm gamers...women....not a good analogy.

You could say the miserable 40k player is the AFC (average frustrated chump) that falls for a HB10(hot babe) but suffers from one-itis so doesn't go for the other chicks. He instead hopes to move from the friends ladder to the mate ladder.

Ladder Theory and The Game applied to warhammer. It's the only way gamers will understand.

When discussions of GW gaming start including the phrase "with benefits", something is very, very wrong.

Personally, I think the Crazy-Hot Scale might be a better reference point for how we relate to GW gaming.

I am sorry to say that Northern Europe will suffer the same fate as North America.

One of our two largest online retailers annonced that "GW will stop with bitz service" (in other words they have been told that they cannot sell bits throu their store after a not too distant date).


I wonder why they have done this move? It isn't realy a big deal, or do they so desperatly want people to order from the GW online-store in favour of their local store / favorite online store?


Just sounds odd and compleatly out of context... But hey! It's GW we are talking about! Should we realy be surpriced at all? *sigh*

Sikil wrote:One of our two largest online retailers annonced that "GW will stop with bitz service" (in other words they have been told that they cannot sell bits throu their store after a not too distant date).

I suspect that you're confusing 'bitz sellers' with 'GW's Bits Service'

GW is no longer selling bits, aside from in they're pre-made packs. That means that retailers who formerly ordered bits from GW will no longer be able to do so.

That's not the problem with BWB... they sell bits by buying boxes from GW, breaking them down into components, and selling those components individually.

GW aren't stopping them from doing this. They're just stopping them from doing so through an online store, which is simply standard GW US policy, not something specifically targeting bits sellers.

You know, there is a easy way to make GW stop killing itself.

Simply make a Economical Foundation, with some form of income (gamers buyng shares?).

Make the Foundation buy 51% of the shares in GW (shouldn't cost too much after the last years nose-dive), or at least the shares that are currently available on the stock exchange. Now, the gamers who cared enoth to buy shares in the Fondation can play as much as they want with their personal puppet. As long as all mambers agree and you own 51% of the shares. Else lobby at someone who might agree among the other owners of GW.


If I had the spare cash, I'd gladly buy GW. As is, however, I might only be able to buy 1% if I sell my appartment and my other stocks.

Anyway...

What an exceptional idea. It's a wonder that nobody's organised such a thing in the past.

After all, a bunch of gamers who are incapable of agreeing on whether or not you should be able to draw LOS through a Wraithlords legs, or whether a Shoota Nob can have a power klaw, are surely more than capable of collectively running a multi-million-dollar, multi-national company...

insaniak wrote:
After all, a bunch of gamers who are incapable of agreeing on whether or not you should be able to draw LOS through a Wraithlords legs, or whether a Shoota Nob can have a power klaw, are surely more than capable of collectively running a multi-million-dollar, multi-national company...

Cant be any worse than the innate decisions by GW in the past....You have been watching what they've been doing, right?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Heneral Gobbs wrote:instead of whining that you cannot afford GW products, you should go play other games.

It's pathetic that you:

A). Think that's a valid argument.
B). Think that's a valid solution.

BYE

I personally thinks its a very valid argument and solution. Talk with your wallets not your internet

beef wrote:I personally thinks its a very valid argument and solution. Talk with your wallets not your internet

No way. As a publicly-held company, GW really does pay much more serious attention to people who sit on their asses to on Web forums and "sign" Internet petitions. Actual cash sales are meaningless to them.

Oh, wait...

So,..

GW tells Warstore and everyone else doing online sales they can't use a shopping cart....
The original BWBitz was told by GW they couldn't use a shopping cart...
They decide to sell the business to Warstore...
GW tells Warstore they can't use a shopping cart...

Not arguing rights or wrongs, or legality, but why would what happened be a surprise to anyone? They had to see that coming.

Mikhaila-So,..

GW tells Warstore and everyone else doing online sales they can't use a shopping cart....
The original BWBitz was told by GW they couldn't use a shopping cart...
They decide to sell the business to Warstore...
GW tells Warstore they can't use a shopping cart...

Not arguing rights or wrongs, or legality, but why would what happened be a surprise to anyone? They had to see that coming.

Spot on. How would the 'General' shopping cart rule NOT transfer?

beef wrote:Talk with your wallets not your internet

Here here! I agree wholeheartedly. Who uses the internet as a means of communication anyhow? Poppycock I say! Whenever I want to make my opinion heard I always use my wallet exclusively.

For example, a few months ago I wanted to let gorgon know that I didn't much care for GW's treatment of the LatD. At first I thought maybe I should post my opinion on one of the numerous threads about the subject or perhaps even send him a private message. I had almost forgotten that the most effective way to communicate is through my wallet! For shame! Luckily I caught myself in time. So rather than tell him using my internet (which would have been the epitome of foolishness), I simply decided not to buy the new Chaos codex! Now when gorgon looks at GW's sales figures for fiscal year 2007 he will clearly deduce from the numbers that I didn't buy the Chaos codex and that I don't like how GW invalidated the LatD list. And to think, had I used the internet my message might never have reached him!

Edit: I just remembered - I should have used my wallet to communicate this message, not the internet!! What have I done?!

Edit: Oh god! I did it again!