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Free! Live Free!(Harry Harrison Book)

I really think the idea of minimising access to your 'business' through crushing your 'proxy' distributers is about the dumbest thing you could do. If this Marketing guy does not think ANY exposure is good exposure for your business, he should get a job where failure is a pre-requisite.

Oh wait................he has.

This is definitely the sort of thing that kills the spirit that they try to say the hobby promotes. White Dwarf used to showcase armies like Dave Taylor's Adeptus Mechanicus army, and emphasize all the cool things that you could do with several random bits. I've made several large bits orders to build unique units like Cadian Rough Riders, and Adeptus Arbites. If my only choice had been to buy the heinous Attilan ones, I wouldn't have even purchased them.

As has been noted, this doesn't harm brick and mortar stores, it harms GW. The most mercenary thing they could have done is to eliminate the online bitz dealers and then maintain their own bits service. Then they could really gouge the people who want to buy bits. But it makes no sense to shut down the bits dealers and their own bits service. It is just eliminating a revenue stream and presenting a poor alternative that no one in their right mind would consider.

I know that in the last two years my purchases of GW products has plummeted. The arbitrary nerfing and pumping up of units, the utter lack of any sort of content in White Dwarf, rising prices, and the prospect of a game flopping new edition have prevented me from buying very many new figs. There always seems to be something on the horizon that makes me not want to invest any more money in the game.

I just realised that I can't do my Tallarn Rough Riders on Cold Ones any more.

Frackin' GW...

[EDIT]: Haha! Seems I beat the word sensor with that one. I'll edit it manually then...

BYE

Freedom isn't free. Freedom costs a buck 'o five.
Which is significantly cheaper than getting a melta for your squad, oddly enough.

I heartily agree that GW should sell boxes of standard troops, and sprues of upgrades. Granted, my main army is composed of solid blocks of pewter, so it wouldn't do me much good. It would, however, make my sub-armies more easy to deal with, and would increase the number of things I buy straight from GW (instead of on the secondary market) a great deal.

Well....

The re-cut chaos marine box does have a flamer, plasma and melta as well as a plasma pistol, powersword, powerfist and heavy bolter if I'm not mistaken.

The re-cut tactical squad box has a plasma, melta and flamer as well as sergeant bits.

The new Ork Boyz box has all the nob bitz (+powerclaw) and all the heavy weapons.

The new Eldar guardian boxes come with the heavy weapon platforms and several choices of weapons to mount.

So it seems like lately GW has been making an effort to put all the things you may want to use in their troop boxes.

so let me get this straight. GW drops their bitz service, switching to an inferior good in the form of new and lame packs. surprise surprise their inferior good doesn't sell because sane people are still offering the better product.

there are two ways to profit from an inferior good, lower prices or monopoly. since GW is the manufacturer they have a monopoly if they want it.

of course, this really just encourages me to improve my modeling skills to work around the lack of bitz. and in any case i'd rather pick up my phone than pay for stuff i don't want. /facepalm

Ravenous D wrote:As many of you know, a few years back GW basically black balled US internet retailers that used the shopping chart option. Well now since they decided that their bitz service was far better then everyone else’s they are going after internet retailers again that sell bits.

The warstore was recently giving 90 days by GW to shut down their bitz service shopping cart. So BWB has the options of shutting down, or switch to phone in/paper orders (a nightmare to some retailers).

The good news this affects the US only, so Canadian or UK bitz companies can still sell their product free of GWs tactics.

*edited of inflammatory references to monsters from the 30's and 40's*
-Drake

Let me enlighten you: GW does not let internet sales happen because a seller who has no overhead and can sell from his mom's closet and give a discount will sell more then a brick and mortar store. Without those stores, people won't have places to play in, or meet other gamers, or get into the hobby. It was a smart move to ensure fair competition for BnM stores.

As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

The other half of this is that even if you are a Bitz company the fact that GW cut their bitz service and turned it into a gouge-o-thon makes it almost impossible for online retailers to make a profit selling bits.

For example before an online retailer could order the bitz and get his retailers discount, but now GW has cut the discount for retailers when you buy direct for the "mail order only" (ALL their bitz) and you would have to buy the entire box in order to get your discount! So say I wanted to order 10 eldar heavy weapon sprues, that would mean an online retailer would have to have 10 of them from 10 different boxes.

T

The term gouging is used whenever someone objects to a businessman charging a price he deems fair, but the customer deems unfair. If you call up and want a bit, and some monkey has to go through a warehouse to find it, you don't think they should sell that bit for an extra 10 cents? Hey guess, what, they decided the small amount of money that bitz was bringing in wasn't worth it, so now you won't have to pay the 10 cents.

Your also incorrect in them slashing the discount. For the past couple of years its been the same.



I

can't wrap my head around their thinking, usually if your company is starting to go into a nose dive you try to find the problem and get youself upright, not swing it straight down and try and take out as many innocent people as you can.

It seems GWs motto is "f'em we'll take them for all they're worth before we crash!".

Since apocalypse was there way of being "nice guys" and that didn't pull in as much as they wanted, I guess they figure they'll go back to being the usual bastards that they are.

What's worse is GW ceasing to sell mail order only items (all the bitz I might add) to the indy stores at their retailers discount of 50%. If they want them they have to pay the same as the rest of us. So basically GW just smashed all the online bitz retailers who were making money off of them. Which doesnt make any sense because those bitz retailers were buying FROM GW, so squashing them only proves to lose them money.

It's typical GW though, screw the little guy as much as possible and still lose money. I don't understand how the company seems to think it's policy of "screwing over your customer base = profit".

Can you back this up with numbers? That apocalypse did not bring in as much as they wanted? Again, I heard sales were up by a lot. And while the company is not making as much profit as it would like, or none in some regions.....it is making profit overall. Even McDonald's has done poorly once in a while.

What makes me sick is that people feel they are entitled to low prices, that you feel that someone who wants to make money and chooses to price a product a certain price or to offer or not offer a service and charge for it is evil. It has become a sin somehow to work hard for your money, and be expected to make what you want. Do you go and complain in car forums that Chevrolet charges alot for Corvettes? Sure, they would sell more if they lowered their prices.

Go price up hobbies like golf, or scuba diving, or skydiving, and tell me how much those cost. And next time you post, get your facts right.

corinth wrote:so let me get this straight. GW drops their bitz service, switching to an inferior good in the form of new and lame packs. surprise surprise their inferior good doesn't sell because sane people are still offering the better product.

there are two ways to profit from an inferior good, lower prices or monopoly. since GW is the manufacturer they have a monopoly if they want it.

of course, this really just encourages me to improve my modeling skills to work around the lack of bitz. and in any case i'd rather pick up my phone than pay for stuff i don't want. /facepalm

Have you seen all of the new packs? Or are you prescient to know what they all are, and are making your judgement now?

You do realize that the bitz service was a small small small part of their business, but caused alot of work for them? More power to businesses that want to pay alot of money for sprues, do all the work of chopping them up, and then selling them, and having a ton of parts no one wants. Ditto for the metal box sets. I'm sure we'll be seeing some bitz millionaires all over the place.

Hellfury wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh noes! My Tactical Squad box is b0rk3n because it only has Missile Launcher & Flamer.

For the price they ask for it, it should most certainly contain all the options needed to make that squad.

For the price that Chevrolet charges for a Corvette, it should include the trophy girlfriend.

General Hobbs wrote:What is really sad is your utter ignorance and stupidity. Let me enlighten you: GW does not let internet sales happen because a seller who has no overhead and can sell from his mom's closet and give a discount will sell more then a brick and mortar store. Without those stores, people won't have places to play in, or meet other gamers, or get into the hobby. It was a smart move to ensure fair competition for BnM stores.

As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Go price up hobbies like golf, or scuba diving, or skydiving, and tell me how much those cost.

First off, the most successful reputable pre-ban internet sellers *were* B&M stores who managed to have a strong internet presence to complement their B&M sales.

Second, those of us who are actual adults have houses with garages and game rooms, so we aren't dependant upon a B&M store's hours / rules, nor do we need to compete with pimply adolescents for table space. Not all B&M stores are worthy of patronage - many of them are poorly-run and deserve to close a few months after opening. That said, we adults appreciate the Going Out Of Business sales.

People generally haven't had problems with the Warstore, but anything is possible.

Finally, compared to GW, golf isn't *that* expensive. Nowadays, you can get a set of clubs & kit for under $300. This gear will be much better than what a newbie can extract full usage from. If one limits play to municipal courses and such, greens fees can be kept under $500 for the year. Count $200 for balls, and $1k budget for the year isn't too bad under $100 per month.

Golf prices go up when you have to deal with a pesky rodent.

General Hobbs wrote:

As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Whats sad is you telling lies and slander without a shred of proof.

you have to be the only one I have ever heard bad things to say about the war store.

What makes me sick is that pukes like you feel you are entitled to low prices, that you feel that someone who wants to make money and chooses to price a product a certain price or to offer or not offer a service and charge for it is evil. It has become a sin somehow to work hard for your money, and be expected to make what you want. Do you go and whine in car forums that Chevrolet charges alot for Corvettes? Sure, they would sell more if they lowered their prices.

Go price up hobbies like golf, or scuba diving, or skydiving, and tell me how much those cost. And next time you post, get your facts right.

whats sad is that you think people SHOULD pay full price. Like we owe GW something.

Consumers SHOP. Doesnt matter what it is: house, car, appliances, GW products, golf stuff.

You can offer whatever you want and charge what you want, but we dont actually have to PAY what your asking. We can go elsewhere for it.

You wish us to price up gold, scuba diving or skydiving....but guess what? In your examples folks can and have comparisson shopped around for the best deals. If your going to use golf as an example, then we should be able to shop around for GW stuff like we do golkf clubs, no?

You cant have it both ways....

General Hobbs wrote:What is really sad is your utter ignorance and stupidity.

General Hobbs wrote:What makes me sick is that pukes like you feel you are entitled to low prices,

General Hobbs wrote:Christ, what a bunch of whiners.

Usually I issue warnings via PM, General Hobbs, but this was egregious enough to warrant a public message.

Personal attacks and insults are not tolerated here on Dakka. Please respond in a polite manner, and attack the message, not the poster. Dakka is a place for people to express themselves, and you attacked them because you disagree with them. You even leveled accusations against a retailer without any sort of proof; at least mitigate it with "I suspect" or "I heard that". I can understand being upset with other people's point of views, but do not take it out on them personally. Others have been warned for doing the same to you, and you need to follow the same rules.

Further violations of Dakka rules will result in a temporary suspension.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, Yakface, or any of the other mods.

General Hobbs wrote:GW does not let internet sales happen because a seller who has no overhead and can sell from his mom's closet and give a discount will sell more then a brick and mortar store. Without those stores, people won't have places to play in, or meet other gamers, or get into the hobby. It was a smart move to ensure fair competition for BnM stores.

In the USA, "online sellers" can only take orders (and give discounts, if they wish to) by phone/ fax/email/etc. but not by an online shopping cart. Even BnM stores that charge full price can not have an online shopping cart.

GW US wants to be the only place you can order from in the USA online with a shopping cart. It also wants to be the "only" place that has pictures to browse/see their products in the USA.

GW US cripples online sales to protect its IP (their claim), which they seem to be overly protective of here in the USA. GW US has even gotten ebay to remove auctions "to protect their IP" (while I write this, the ebay ad is at top ).

Strangely the other branches of GW don't seem to have these issues, because they allow online stores with pictures AND discounts. I use two online Canadian stores to browse GW product because they tend to have better descriptions/product info and more/better pictures than GW does on any of their sites.

General Hobbs wrote:As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Admittedly it might be well before my return to 40k, but I have never heard these "stories" about The War Store. I did hear rumors of this kind of behavior when the original Battle Wagon Bits started to sell boxed sets in addition to bits. I never had it happen to me nor did I see more than a few people online "claim" this happened to them.

Considering the number of times I have heard people complain of GW boxes missing/having broken/miscast parts, I would chalk this up to being GW's poor packaging quality, but I admit that it could have been a seller abusing GW policy of replacing parts that have issues.

General Hobbs wrote:
As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Oh man, i just cant qualify this level of argumentation. I have dealed with them and im in europe so extra complicated, yet i can only tell good things about them... on a online business trust can be shattered with irresponsable rumours and childish shady theories like yours, glad Neal has proven you wrong soooooo many times

[

whats sad is that you think people SHOULD pay full price. Like we owe GW something.

Consumers SHOP. Doesnt matter what it is: house, car, appliances, GW products, golf stuff.

You can offer whatever you want and charge what you want, but we dont actually have to PAY what your asking. We can go elsewhere for it.

You wish us to price up gold, scuba diving or skydiving....but guess what? In your examples folks can and have comparisson shopped around for the best deals. If your going to use golf as an example, then we should be able to shop around for GW stuff like we do golkf clubs, no?

You cant have it both ways...

Le me clarify something. I never said you SHOULD pay full price, just that if GW wants to charge X, they should not be casitigated for their pricing. If you can find a BnM store that sells at a discount, by all means shop there. You are supporting the store, which is the important thing.

And thats the big thing....that for gaming in general to prosper, people need to support the store. They need to go in and spend money at the store, or fewer and fewer people will get into gaming, and game companies will go out of business.

Internet sales has hurt more then just GW. It hurts all the gaming companies. I was working in a BnM store for a while, and I'd see the owner run tournaments and events, and people would come in with Magic cards or Battlemechs...that they bought elsewhere. He made no money on these events, so he eventually stopped running them. He ended up having to sell at a discount, and ended up renting part of his store out to another business to make up his rent.

Gaming is different from golf, scuba diving etc in that you can go to a course and play, or hop in the ocean by yourself. To game, you have to find other people into the hobby, and you need to have a place to play. BnM stores are where you can do that. They are the places that are keeping gaming alive.

General Hobbs wrote:
As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

I don't want to go OT but I have to speak in defence of Neal. I had a lot of problems with rude sales people at my nearest (F)LGS. So I have done all my buying through the Warstore as of late because of their level of professionalism and integrity. I found Neal was extremely polite and efficient and that any snafus that have come up in the transactions have been immediatly taken care of. Give your sources for a statement like that or give it a rest.

General Hobbs wrote:
Le me clarify something. I never said you SHOULD pay full price, just that if GW wants to charge X, they should not be casitigated for their pricing. If you can find a BnM store that sells at a discount, by all means shop there. You are supporting the store, which is the important thing.

And thats the big thing....that for gaming in general to prosper, people need to support the store. They need to go in and spend money at the store, or fewer and fewer people will get into gaming, and game companies will go out of business.

And then your anology falls apart here. Again.

GW SHOULD be casitigated for their tactics. Your "GW needs game shops to prosper" falls apart if you look at GW as a whole.

*I* played when there were not shops, and they prospered.

GW prospers outside the US, and STILL allows online sales. You cant justify non-internet sales in one region with the "brick and morters need help" in just one area when its not doing it elsewhere. Doesnt make sense.

People were buying a TON of stuff online, and GW was healthier in 2001 then it was 2002-present day. More shops have closed I'd hazard in the years since the ban.....so exactly how was it a help?

Internet sales has hurt more then just GW. It hurts all the gaming companies. I was working in a BnM store for a while, and I'd see the owner run tournaments and events, and people would come in with Magic cards or Battlemechs...that they bought elsewhere. He made no money on these events, so he eventually stopped running them. He ended up having to sell at a discount, and ended up renting part of his store out to another business to make up his rent.

Privateer press FLOURISHED in the time that GW removed internet sales....because you could get the product when you wanted it.

Thats just a sad story. And irrelevant to the matter.....one place doesnt make a whole. The store I use to play stopped selling LotR once the ban came into place because the vast majority of their oreders.....came from online.

Gaming is different from golf, scuba diving etc in that you can go to a course and play, or hop in the ocean by yourself. To game, you have to find other people into the hobby, and you need to have a place to play. BnM stores are where you can do that. They are the places that are keeping gaming alive.

if golf and the others are different from gaming, then stop using them as an anology. People like YOU keep bringing it up.

you dont need a store for gaming....we didnt back in 1990 and we dont now. We found folks and just played.

PP did have release issues...when they couldn't match demand.

malfred wrote:PP did have release issues...when they couldn't match demand.

Irrelevant to the discussion...but correct.

Part of their demand problems was that you could get the product! Online helped them make huge inroads...and online vendors liek white of your eyes(who I beleive arent around) helped get it out there.

There is a reason GW's unit sales and money slumped in the US....after the ban. You can track it in their reports.

The USA more than other countries needs internet sales because the area is huge and the population is spread out and it's impossible to cover it with shops.

General Hobbs wrote:I was working in a BnM store for a while, and I'd see the owner run tournaments and events, and people would come in with Magic cards or Battlemechs...that they bought elsewhere. He made no money on these events, so he eventually stopped running them. He ended up having to sell at a discount, and ended up renting part of his store out to another business to make up his rent.

Many businesses sadly find it easier to just blame the internet for their woes than to examine what it is they're doing wrong.

People turning up to events with product bought elsewhere happens regardless of whether or not they can buy it on the internet. Particularly in miniature gaming where tournament goers are often veterans who haven't bought models in years.

A store-run event provides a captive audience. If you can't see some sort of return from it (even if it's just in soft drink and chocolate) then that's down to how you're running your event, not to whether or not they can buy their toys on the internet.


The funniest part of all this for me has always been the idea that stopping internet sales in one country somehow stops people from buying online at all... and is the strongest clue for me (assuming that the people running GW US can't really be that stupid) that this really is simply an IP issue for them, rather than anything to do with 'saving' B&M stores.

Kilkrazy wrote:The USA more than other countries needs internet sales because the area is huge and the population is spread out and it's impossible to cover it with shops.

Indeed and same in europe... if it wasnt for the net I could not buy most of the minis I collect these days.

General Hobbs wrote:
As for the warstore....well I've heard the stories about that place. Opening boxes, taking out product, rewrapping it and telling customers to call GW for corrections and other crap like that....it took a long time for that place to get back in line, but they are shady and I'll never give them my dollar.

Just to jump on this, I'm overseas as well and only deal with the Warstore. Never had any problems with them, even with complicated bitz orders, and despite crossing the pacific ocean everything has arrived perfectly, intact, and within 2 weeks.

I don't give anyone else my business.

General Hobbs wrote:Internet sales has hurt more then just GW. It hurts all the gaming companies.

I was working in a BnM store for a while, and I'd see the owner run tournaments and events, and people would come in with Magic cards or Battlemechs...that they bought elsewhere. He made no money on these events, so he eventually stopped running them. He ended up having to sell at a discount, and ended up renting part of his store out to another business to make up his rent.

To game, you have to find other people into the hobby, and you need to have a place to play. BnM stores are where you can do that. They are the places that are keeping gaming alive.

Totally untrue. A lot of companies would never have been able to reach critical mass of sales if they had to depend on B&M distribution. WotC wouldn't exist if not for being able to grow their games via Internet sales.

If a store isn't making money on Magic and Clix, they're doing something very, very wrong. Both of those systems are practically licenses to print money. WotC practically goes out of their way to help store owners make money via in-store events like FNM. Things like Booster Draft and Sealed are should be pure bank for the store. It sounds to me like your store owner just didn't execute very well.

As I noted above, B&M stores aren't the only place to play. Classrooms, garages, and basements are all excellent alternatives.

Man, there is alot of troll feeding going on in this thread.

Arguing against a bunk set of posts isn't going to make you right, it just gives credence and empowers the poster to continue trolling.

The baffling part is this same troll gets warned numerous times and the troll is still around.

This is why Dakka REALLY needs an Ignore function. Pronto.

The whole "Protecting Brick and Mortar" stores is an interesting angle.

As someone mentioned it, I'll say that the same POV is used for Scuba diving gear. A number of manufacturers don't allow internet sales of their equipment because they want to protect walk-in stores that provide training (important in SCUBA), maintenance (also a big thing!), and similar.

In many cases, the stuff is available online, it's just considered "Grey Market" and may or may not receive proper warranty service or free parts on maintenance, etc.

Still, there's big discounts available online as long as you are OK with other manufacturers. I like my local dive shop but I'm caught between a desire to support them and a desire to keep a few bucks in my wallet. It is, ultimately, very similar to how I can get with a game store if they are responsive to my needs.

In this case GW is one manufacturer, albeit one that has effectively made it's own niche in a an already small niche. They really need to decide what kind of game (or games) they want and make that message clear so people can jump in or move on as appropriate.

I don't get this "support the B&M" store bit at all.

Last I looked selling toy soldiers wasn't a charitable activity. Folks don't set up a wargaming store in order to make a better society! Nope, they are in it for a profit. Or at least to earn a living.

Now I'm not going to go and deliberately hurt someone's business, but I work hard for my money. I'm not going to go and spend 25% more on my hobby just because it'll make someone cry if I don't.

If I want somewhere to go to play games and eat cheetos with my gaming buddies, then I should be prepared to pay for that service. I shouldn't expect people to subsidise my needs by paying over the odds for miniatures that they can buy 20% cheaper online when they are going to use them in their own basement.

To my mind, those that expect to game for free on tables someone else has built funded out of the sales to people who won't enjoy those benefits are whinging freeloaders and they need to get a reality check!

Most gaming happens at home or in clubs, not in stores. So why shouldn't most sales be over the internet?

Ok, er, I think?

I gotta agree that this stuff about supporting B&M stores is just silly. All manner of business opportunities are opened up by selling online, and as the War Store is a great example of, selling in B&M and online is a great way to help even out your cash stream. Far too many people complain that "X is killing our industry!" when the fact is it is their own inability to adapt to a changing market that is dooming them. Creative Destruction is a lynch pin of all human advancement, with new ideas and systems necessarily replacing the old as we move forward. You might as well complain that the internet is destroying the post services because it is easier to send an email than to write a letter.

Not to mention the fact that no specialty store has a 100% chance of surviving in any case, generally a lot lower (I have read as low as 15% make it past their 5th year.) As nice as having a store in your local mall is, I would be willing to bet that just as many people got started at a club, or by some other venue eg. picked up a copy at a comic shop, or whever they buy D&D stuff.

Come to think of it, GW doesn't "officially" sell their rules etc. on Amazon, do they? That's just madness. I can maybe see not selling at Wal-Mart like WotC, but not hitching your cart to Amazon seems like you desire to not reach a large market.