Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alpharius wrote:
If *every* Traitor Legion isn't represented (remember, they all used to be!), don't you think JJ was being a bit disingenuous then when he said that GW would be (maybe) doing the "Legions"?

Not in the least. I don't recall JJ saying GW would be doing *every* Legion. I can't see GW doing the secondary Chaos Legions if they're not doing secondary Loyalist Chapters. Do you have a specific quote from Jervis where he promised to do *every* Traitor Legion?

IMO, if GW covers the big 4, I think that's plenty enough. The rest can be adequately covered by the basic CSM book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Do you have a specific quote from Jervis where he promised to do *every* Traitor Legion?

Do you have a specific quote from Jervis where he promised to do *any* Traitor Legions? I'm serious.

IMO, if GW covers the big 4, I think that's plenty enough. The rest can be adequately covered by the basic CSM book.

Some will say the big 4 are adequately covered by the basic CSM book. I mean, there they all are - right in the Troops section!

From Warseer: "I heard the Dark Eldar will get a new codex this year after Space Marines. It is already in the testing phase and rewrite. It is not going away. Not many new models. Heard this from an English "UK" guy visiting to promote the game in Houston area for a possible Games Day venture in the Houston area. The guy works for the GW promotions department. He came over to our RTT to see what is going on in Houston and get more independent retailers invovled. Aslo look for the Space Wolves to go the way of Blood Angels. I hope this guy was not pulling our leg for fun and laughs." - Posted by rcm2216. I know the groans of Warseer are coming, but, if you want a rumor that's going to be tracked down, that's where to get them. I also looked for the quote from Jervis, but without arcane powers and a bit of technomancy it looks like it's rather lost to age.

I think that we'll eventually remember/find that the "Jervis Quote" that "promised" Legion books is something filled with weasel words, vague allusions and a smoke machine.

In other words, don't hold your breath!

And really, if they just do the "Big" 4, that really won't cut it for many.

And really, what's the rate that GW has fulfilled their "promises" in the past? 50%, maybe 65%? I mean, I think doing a statistical analysis of this would not only be a difficult, but dumb exercise, but seriously, do people really believe everything they hear from a GW rep?

I certainly do. I cling to every word they say like a newborn would cling to a 44DD. So what happens when their words of truth do not come to fruitation? I flagellate myself for I know that it is my fault for not purchasing enough Space Marines to warrant the release of a LaTD codex. My body is covered in scars. Scars of love!

Considering this guy was supposedly from a part of GW that looks to organize Games Day in different parts of the US, maybe so. Seems to me this guy comes from a little further up than your typical rumor source at least.

@Stormtrooper: If you were clinging to that 44DD like I would instead of like a newborn, maybe things would come to fruition, instead of falling hopelessly into the abyss!

adamsouza wrote:I'd buy Demiurg (squats) before I buy revamped Dark Eldar.

Dark Eldar are Space Dark Elves, plain and simple. They exist solely to parity their fantasy counterpart.

Thier tech isn't as good as Eldar.
Their not as killy in hand to hand as nids.
Thier not as shooty as tau/marines/edlar/etc..
Thier fiction is weak
Thier models are some of the worst in 40K
They barely make any money for GW
They could disapear tommorow and not really impact the fictional universe of 40K

They are a so so army at best, that appeals to elf lovers and S&M freaks.

They got an updated codex, and that is probably how they will remain untill they fall into obscurity.

ok let me stop the most obvious misinformation campaign i have seen. Sir either you are being sarcastic or you have no idea what you are speaking of.

their tech isnt as good as the eldar? how do you figure that? Their tech is about equal but they are faster than the eldar.

Their not as killy in hand to hand as nids? uh no they are better. they hit better they have a better armor save in close combat if you take a wytch cult not a regular DE army.

this next one is the laughable one i have seen to date

they are not as shooty as tau/ marines/ etc.

No they are equal or better, their weapons hit on 3's. Tau dont shoot like that at all, this goes to show you have no idea of what you are speaking of. Their lance weapons are equal to the eldar in every respect and they hit on the same numbers as marines.. would you care to explain your comment and its obviously glaringly misinformation?

their fiction is weak. Care to back that up with some proof or are you just voicing your opinion?

their models are some of the worst in 40k. again another opinion with no way to actually back that up.

they dont make any money for gw. Well ok show me another army that is direct mail order only and ill show you another army with lagging sales as well. this is the lamest thing i have ever heard. DE are an on the shelf item across the ocean in the Uk and overseas. only here in the US are they mail order only which explains the non existant sales

they could disappear from the universe and no one would blah blah blah
Is this another opinion of yours or are you speaking from some font of knowledge that you and you alone have access to ?

you may have few if any players playing DE in your area, but here there are about 8-10 playing that army and they do very well. i guess if you have never played them or played against them you have no real experience to make educated comments on them and thats the way things seem to go everywhere

Death By Monkeys wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:My point isn't that they aren't playable. My point is that they aren't distinctively playable. They aren't as special as they should be, and that is a problem that can only be fixed by reconcepting the army.

I think that's a very valid point. They can have very competitive armies, but there's nothing about that play style that's terribly exciting or interesting.

I disagree. No one else can do skimmer assault like a Wych cult can anymore. KOS fast vehicle assault isn't the same as that at all, as the basic Ork toughness reduces the desperate need to strike first every round.

And the DE version of SAFH may have weapons similar to bolter/las spam in profile, but the troops firing them are both more fragile and more numerous.

And no one else has portal assault after the decline of USF.

Those are plenty of different modes of play IMO. They _hit_ like KOS or Marine SAFH in some cases, but they can't take the same sort of punishment in return. That lends itself to a very different style of play.

And Savnock, I'm glad that Abby schooled you on the double-Keith references...that really was a bit much for two threads.

Damnit, I think Kieth Richards belongs in every discussion of DE. He's the father of all haemonculi. Urien Rakarth is nothing but an overblown roadie compared to Keith. I mean, the man has publicly admitted to snorting some of his cremated father's ashes mixed with cocaine. Case closed.

I hereby swear that if haemonculi remain in the new DE codex, I will convert (or commission, beg, borrow or steal) a Keith Richards-in-space miniature. Then you will all PAY.

I'm sorry I used my Keith-quota on that CSM thread. It won't happen again- I will conserve and lovingly dole out that precious resource from here on out.

Burna Stompa wrote:Considering this guy was supposedly from a part of GW that looks to organize Games Day in different parts of the US, maybe so. Seems to me this guy comes from a little further up than your typical rumor source at least.

Hi guys

This rumor did not come from anyone involved in organizing US Games Days (the Community Development Team). None of us are English and none of us have, unfortunately, been to Houston. All too often statements are taken out of context and some people only hear what they want to hear. "rcm2216" from Warseer seems to have done just that.

Unless you read information about new products in White Dwarf or see it on games-workshop.com then they should not be considered promises made by GW (as alluded to earlier in the thread), but merely speculation by people (employee and customers alike) who are very passionate about this great hobby. Please remember context is VERY important for proper communication.

Cheers
Dave Taylor
GW US Community Development Manager

Thanks Dave this thread was going into the redonkeyless stage. Opinions and hearsay still equal nothing. The one positive based on the numerous past posts and this post is thier seems to be quite a interest in DE either for or against.

Firstly, hooray for DaveTaylor, my hobbying God.

So, I’m actually writing this in Word (gonna cut and paste)as I read this 5 page thread for the first time, so I apologize in advance for the innevitable Great Wall of Text (FEAR ME Mongowians, twy to tear down dis waw).

*EDIT: decided to break it up into 3 posts instead of 1 massive wall*

First point, though not in any order: The reason dark eldar models don’t move are the absolute atrocity of the line. I have worked for GW, my best friend is highish up in US Retail, and every comment we ever heard was how horrible the models were.

Second Point – Slaanesh: A lot of this is my opinion, though my suppositions are (in my mind at least) strongly supported by the limited fluff. I can’t find ANY referrence in ANY printed material about DE and Slaanesh being homies. There are, however, many many MANY hints otherwise....

Hint 1: Commaragh exists in the webway. In almost every piece of webway fluff I’ve ever read, the webway has an impenetrable anti-warp wall (so to speak) around it, kinda like a never-failing Gellar Field (whish is what protects Imperial Starships from the warp, for folks who didn’t know). If you were buddy-buddy with the Ol’ Prince of Pen!s, why would you make your house in the one place s/he can’t go?

Hint 2: The DE and their soul traffic. This one may not be as strong, but why consume souls? Perhaps to make your own stronger? I see this soul traffic as being not only a wicked way to get your sadistic jollies (I mean, a Haemonculus can torture someone indefinitely, but you can only eat a soul once…), but more importantly the DE version of the infinity circuit. Sure, the DE don’t go to soul prison as a guaranteed safe spot in eternity, but consuming souls hopefully giving your own soul the strength to escape Slaanesh? I like it…

Hint 3: Not that there’s much DE fluff to look through, but… In every example of Slaaneshii decadence (see the Fulgrim novel, for example), EVERY pleasure and vice and perversion is experemented in. The DE seem to stick only to sadism – and who doesn’t like inflicting just a teeny bit of hurt on someone they don’t like (and the DE don’t like anyone)? What is absent is the wanton lust, and more importantly, the masochism. The DE have never had an ounce of masochism in any of their fluff.

Third point – The Rules: Most people seem to be saying/agreeing with “the book doesn’t need an overhaul, but the models do.” I agree with the second point, but not the first. I’m going to go through the entire list briefly, with a quick and dirty analysis:

Theme: Piratical Raiders. Fast moving, agile, hit and run. This says to me a couple of things. Everyone in the army needs to move fast or get left behind. You think your archon is gonna send Tom Hanks and Vin Diessel to rescue you from the evil advancing Naz… umm, IG? NO. Maybe Oppum, but that’s mostly just to laugh at him as he gets killed (and GOD I hope the oppum actor-guy in Lost gets what’s been coming to him since Saving Privcate Ryan, and I hope his death hurts, A LOT!!!). This being said, fast moving, lightly armoured, with limited heavy weaponry.

HQ: I think the concept of DE commanders being “independent character” is slowed. There is NO WAY an archon would go into battle without his most trusted bodyguards, it would be too easy for the new archon to have a friendly fire incident. That being said, for game play purposes, to stay on par with other characters, they should maintain the IC rule but have no choice about the bodyguard.

Archon/Dracon – New models please. IMO, should HAVE to take a bodyguard. Bodyguard should be DE warriors or incubi, BUT incubi should not have a 3+ save. It just doesn’t fit IMO. A 4+ maybe, but not a 3+

Haemonculus – Ditto. Should HAVE to take grotesque bodyguard.

Wych Lord: See comments in Wyches.

Elites:
Grotesques – only available as a haemonculus bodyguard. Don’t need the stupid rule anymore, and the feel no pain rule can be GASP! feel no pain…

Mandrakes – Love the concept, but the application is poor, especially when fielding multiple units. Lictor deep strike rules anyone? Plus, with the new codex system (ie no armoury), its now safe to give them vet. Serg. equivalents as you wont be able to sneak across the table unmolested for 3 turns and drop a webway portal on the turn you show up.

Wyches – something about them has always bothered me, and that’s the random combat drug system. That being said, GW reinstated the randomness for chaos possessed, so I guess it’s here to stay. That being said… would it be possible to, say, roll once for the entire army? With maybe a wych lord giving you 2 rolls, and choosing the result? So I don’t have to remember the different drugs for my 8 different wych variant squads…?

Warp Beasts – LOVE the concept, but just need to be squad upgrades for wyches and mandrakes, say 1 per 5 models in the unit…

Troops:
Warriors – so many issues here for me:
1) The dark lance. LAME. My fast moving, piratical raiders are going to set up 50% of the raiding force as a firebase? Doubtful. The dark lance needs to move to an assault weapon, maybe at 24”, but more preferrably for me 18”. It should be impossible to kill stuff with a DE infantry model on the first turn from your own deployment zone. They should be FORCED to move.
B) Models need to cost more. 1-2 points each, and come with scouts. If you have the right number, you can upgrade to a transport at no cost, or a lesser cost than other squads.

The Raider – Higher transport capacity please. 12 or 15 maybe… I was gonna say “goodbye interesting upgrades” after the new chaos book, but the new ork book tells me they’re ok… Vehicle weapons only able to fire if vehicle has embarked models, with a “gunner” vehicle upgrade that allows you to shoot after disembarking. I hate the “Raider Lance Battery” tactic after disembarking.

Fast Attack:
Jetbikes/Hellions – All the Wych comments apply. Both should get hit and run.

Heavy Support:
Scourges – see comment on dark lances in the Warriors entry. Secondly, jump pack troops in HS? Seems like a FA entry to me… though that would leave HS options limited…

Ravager – Small transport capacity, maybe 6 models. In my mind the only thing that comes on a dark eldar vehicle is the pilot, see raider entry. This may or may not work, but I like the concept. Disintegrator shorter range, but maybe higher str.

Talos – BEST concept in the army, hands down. Lunatic rampaging torture device on the battlefield? YES, PLEASE!! Need some serious fixing, though. I would:
Monstrous creature – better than the old, complicated method of vehicle whacking.
Weapons – Talos Sting – gone. Upgrade to weapons/etc like the carnifex/wraithlord/etc.
Movement rules like a spawn – attack closest enemy
Obciously need a cool-sounding name for this ability – Towing. Drag the talos along behind a raider/ravager. Does not move on its own until it is activated (ie Disembarks). If raider is destroyed before disembarking, take a wound with no save, 2 wounds if moved over 12". I love the idea of swinging by an enemy and “dropping off” this little present and letting it go berserk.

MISSING: Large Vehicle. Battlewagon/land raider size skimmer. Only moves 12”, but counts as a fast vehicle in all other ways. Ordnance-style anti-infantry weapon upgrade. Large transport capacity, like the battlewagon (20, or 12 with ordnance). Medium Armour. We stole Master of the Universe’s flying skateboards, we can steal Skeletor’s skimming command ship, too.

MISSING: Harlequins. INCLUDING the solitaire, goddamnit. Well, no, no solitaire, if the eldar don’t get one, we don’t either.

Sigh. So much powergaming, I don't even know where to start.

DeathGod wrote:Third point – The Rules: Most people seem to be saying/agreeing with “the book doesn’t need an overhaul, but the models do.” I agree with the second point, but not the first. I’m going to go through the entire list briefly, with a quick and dirty analysis:

I don't mind any model but the warp beasts and the wyches. The book itself is one of the most powerful in the game, has been for a long time. It was (and still is) the only Codex Gav and Jervis wrote that isn't pure crap (in 40K).

DeathGod wrote:Theme: Piratical Raiders. Fast moving, agile, hit and run. This says to me a couple of things. Everyone in the army needs to move fast or get left behind. You think your archon is gonna send Tom Hanks and Vin Diessel to rescue you from the evil advancing Naz… umm, IG? NO. Maybe Oppum, but that’s mostly just to laugh at him as he gets killed (and GOD I hope the oppum actor-guy in Lost gets what’s been coming to him since Saving Privcate Ryan, and I hope his death hurts, A LOT!!!). This being said, fast moving, lightly armoured, with limited heavy weaponry.

So you mean, like 90% of the list is now? Oh, right, you wrote a thesis below this statement. Interesting. Time to debunk.

DeathGod wrote:HQ: I think the concept of DE commanders being “independent character” is slowed. There is NO WAY an archon would go into battle without his most trusted bodyguards, it would be too easy for the new archon to have a friendly fire incident. That being said, for game play purposes, to stay on par with other characters, they should maintain the IC rule but have no choice about the bodyguard.

So despite the obvious GW NERF BAT being swung at every Codex and removing every single bodyguard unit from the game, you want it to still exist. Well, it won't. So this points moot.

DeathGod wrote:Archon/Dracon – New models please. IMO, should HAVE to take a bodyguard. Bodyguard should be DE warriors or incubi, BUT incubi should not have a 3+ save. It just doesn’t fit IMO. A 4+ maybe, but not a 3+

More moot on having to take bodyguards. Incubi should get fleet?! HOLY CRAP SIGN ME UP FOR THAT BULL! They only own everyone in CC as they are. Now guaranteed assaults? Holy hell, what's next, combat drugs?

DeathGod wrote:Haemonculus – Ditto. Should HAVE to take grotesque bodyguard.

Sorry, but you can't have haemonculus as HQ anymore. GW's figured out 'support' characters need to be elites with servitors (cough techmarines cough) or the models do not sell because mr killy other HQ type is better.

Should NOT have to take a bodyguard, just like techmarines don't have to. Having it as an option would be fine.

DeathGod wrote:Grotesques – only available as a haemonculus bodyguard. Don’t need the stupid rule anymore, and the feel no pain rule can be GASP! feel no pain…

Groovy. Something that makes sense AND fits with the GW NERF BAT swingage.

DeathGod wrote:Mandrakes – Love the concept, but the application is poor, especially when fielding multiple units. Lictor deep strike rules anyone? Plus, with the new codex system (ie no armoury), its now safe to give them vet. Serg. equivalents as you wont be able to sneak across the table unmolested for 3 turns and drop a webway portal on the turn you show up.

Neat. Of course you can't do this now, and you wouldn't be able to do this in the new Codex.

No thanks on the lictor deep strike rules on a multiple model unit. Think about it, you scatter poorly and half the units dead. Lictors are easy to place. 10 models aren't.

DeathGod wrote:Wyches – something about them has always bothered me, and that’s the random combat drug system. That being said, GW reinstated the randomness for chaos possessed, so I guess it’s here to stay. That being said… would it be possible to, say, roll once for the entire army? With maybe a wych lord giving you 2 rolls, and choosing the result? So I don’t have to remember the different drugs for my 8 different wych variant squads…?

They already sold enough possessed to make their money back. Wyches, well, they'll need new models (and not resculpts of the existing sh*t) if they intend to sell Wych Cults...and they'll need a better combat drug system to get people to buy into it. So while it isn't good for the army list (it's a limitation that prevents auto-wins currently) it would be good for sales.

DeathGod wrote:Warp Beasts – LOVE the concept, but just need to be squad upgrades for wyches and mandrakes, say 1 per 5 models in the unit…

So kroot hounds. How about we let each army be unique instead of copy after copy of the same tired theme?

DeathGod wrote:Warriors – so many issues here for me:
1) The dark lance. LAME. My fast moving, piratical raiders are going to set up 50% of the raiding force as a firebase? Doubtful. The dark lance needs to move to an assault weapon, maybe at 24”, but more preferrably for me 18”. It should be impossible to kill stuff with a DE infantry model on the first turn from your own deployment zone. They should be FORCED to move.
B) Models need to cost more. 1-2 points each, and come with scouts. If you have the right number, you can upgrade to a transport at no cost, or a lesser cost than other squads.

It is an assault weapon. Learn how to play a DE army. You put DL on your vehicles. Most people take splinter cannons and blasters on raider squads, and DL on enough vehicles to have a credible anti-vehicle threat.

DE should cost more? Are you kidding? That's the only redeeming point of the army now.

DE vehicles should cost more? They're awesome for what they can do now. Again, learn to play dark eldar then speak of them.

DeathGod wrote:The Raider – Higher transport capacity please. 12 or 15 maybe… I was gonna say “goodbye interesting upgrades” after the new chaos book, but the new ork book tells me they’re ok… Vehicle weapons only able to fire if vehicle has embarked models, with a “gunner” vehicle upgrade that allows you to shoot after disembarking. I hate the “Raider Lance Battery” tactic after disembarking.

Ah so that's why you want the army nerfed, because it kicks trash? Makes sense.

I wonder, do you see the gunners on the other armies vehicles? I know I do, and they manage to be viable armies with gunners given for free. Paying for a gunner...that's highly amusing.

Higher capacity would be nice.

DeathGod wrote:Jetbikes/Hellions – All the Wych comments apply. Both should get hit and run.

Or Jetbikes should get Eldar jetbike movement, splinter cannons options, and 2 weapon bonuses for CC...and otherwise be like every other bike out there.

The Hellions, well, you missed a spot. They need assault 2 weapons. Rapid fire weapons on move or fire jump troops is the suck.

DeathGod wrote:Scourges – see comment on dark lances in the Warriors entry. Secondly, jump pack troops in HS? Seems like a FA entry to me… though that would leave HS options limited…

Most people don't run scourges anymore. They're great looking, but even with splinter cannons the ravager is cheaper.

DeathGod wrote:Ravager – Small transport capacity, maybe 6 models. In my mind the only thing that comes on a dark eldar vehicle is the pilot, see raider entry. This may or may not work, but I like the concept. Disintegrator shorter range, but maybe higher str.

So, it should be a razorback? With a S8 plasma cannon? Nurgle will love to hear the news!

What's going to ride in it, in this mythical army of yours that has everyone already in a transport?

DeathGod wrote:Talos – BEST concept in the army, hands down. Lunatic rampaging torture device on the battlefield? YES, PLEASE!! Need some serious fixing, though. I would:
Monstrous creature – better than the old, complicated method of vehicle whacking.
Weapons – Talos Sting – gone. Upgrade to weapons/etc like the carnifex/wraithlord/etc.
Movement rules like a spawn – attack closest enemy
Obciously need a cool-sounding name for this ability – Towing. Drag the talos along behind a raider/ravager. Does not move on its own until it is activated (ie Disembarks). If raider is destroyed before disembarking, take a wound with no save, 2 wounds if moved over 12". I love the idea of swinging by an enemy and “dropping off” this little present and letting it go berserk.

Oh boy. Towing. Towing.

It's SLOW, shouldn't it be gone?

DE are a glass hammer army. Now you want to take that away and give them 3 wraithlords? Pure genius!

DeathGod wrote:MISSING: Large Vehicle. Battlewagon/land raider size skimmer. Only moves 12”, but counts as a fast vehicle in all other ways. Ordnance-style anti-infantry weapon upgrade. Large transport capacity, like the battlewagon (20, or 12 with ordnance). Medium Armour. We stole Master of the Universe’s flying skateboards, we can steal Skeletor’s skimming command ship, too.

So it should be a super raider. You know battlewagons aren't actually super trukks, right? lol

I can only hope something like this crap never comes to pass.

DeathGod wrote:MISSING: Harlequins. INCLUDING the solitaire, goddamnit. Well, no, no solitaire, if the eldar don’t get one, we don’t either.

Beh. I'm ambivalent either way, but I doubt this will happen. Why bring Wyches or Incubi when you can bring Harlies? Totally takes the point of the DE armies CC specialists and throws them out the door.

ok let me stop the most obvious misinformation campaign i have seen

Before you pat yourself on the back too hard, all you did was just post the opposite of everything I said without any proof otherwise.

Secondly, if the Dark Eldar were half as good as you seem to belive they are, they would be broken and dominating the tournament scene, and every munchkin 40K player would field them.

Third, you seem to be the only person who strongly objected to my assertions. Are you playing a with a different Dark Eldar Codex than the rest of us ?

Fourth, notice that I picked at your argument without once insulting you, or insinuating mental imparement on your part.

Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

Sixth, Dark Eldar magically appear once thier codex was written in 3rd edition. RT Era Pirates morphed into S&M elves. They don't significantly affect ANY other race in the rulebook fiction. Tyranids consume galaxies, Orks if organized would overun everyone else, Necrons are only starting to emerge from stasis, Tau are expanding into Imperial space, and the legions of mankind are blowing up everyone, everywhere, at all times. Dark Eldar show up here and again to raid for slaves and that's about it. If you don't agree, point me to any evidence of the contrary ?

Seventh, the models are fugly. I feel confident of that fact after reading this thread, where the people who actually like dark eldar have stated so repeatedly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholdor, so you can feel free to disagree, but don't try to make it out like I'm the only person who thinks it.

Sigh. So much powergaming, I don't even know where to start.

Well, for starters, that was all off the top of my head, in about 5 minutes. I apologize if I didn't proofread for the power gamer. My comments were conceptual in basis, not rules-ready, points-tested, battle-tested, played-to-be-broken-and-then-fixed etc. that goes into writing a real codex.

Just some thoughts on how the army should be themed as opposed to how it is now, which is a bunch of mismatched blah. Sure they are playable now. Sure they are winnable now. But they don't need a book in the current mode... all they need are 3 unit entries in a White Dwarf, cause I never see an army fielding anything but raider squads, archons with incubi and wyches.

What I'd like to see is a *gasp* well-rounded book with all the squad options viable. I don't think that's too much to ask for, and my post were just off-the-cuff 5 minutes of how I envision a dark eldar army working, then translating that to the table top.

I don't run the latter two.

I think all the squad options are viable, I've used them all (and parked them all).

You can only do so much with a army without redoing their current model range entirely.

Almost everything is what it is and has a purpose.

Compare this to say the Borcrons.

DeathGod wrote:My comments were conceptual in basis, not rules-ready, points-tested, battle-tested, played-to-be-broken-and-then-fixed etc. that goes into writing a real codex.

Oh, if ONLY that were the case now.

adamsouza wrote: Secondly, if the Dark Eldar were half as good as you seem to belive they are, they would be broken and dominating the tournament scene, and every munchkin 40K player would field them.

Actually I can count on one hand the number of competent dark eldar players I know. 15 years and I can think of 4 that I played and they knew what they were doing. I've seen tons of DE armies run by idiots, noobs, criminals, and gimps. Doesn't have anything to do with the army being powerful, it has everything to do with the army being very difficult to run properly. i.e. there is no 'easy win' button for munchkins. Only for vets. Who get tired of kicking everyones ass and getting 'cheese' tossed their way.

Dark Eldar do better at the GT's than the marines usually do, so they can't be 'crap' because marines already have that title.

adamsouza wrote:Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

Which is the effect of having most of their models not be 'marines and the things that kill them'. Warriors, Incubi, Wyches, Raiders. CHECK! Everything else, CRAP. Most of those models went to trade sales right away, fyi. A GW decision made when the whole range was still selling.
Now, cookie cutter armies float around and there's no reason to stock it--just get the locally traded DE whore army 15 other guys have had, sucked with, and traded away. I think the local ones in my area are both going for under 150$. So what really killed the DE line? Lack of choices that aren't the easy 'kill marine' button.

Gee, does it sound like Necrons? Let me count the ways...Immortals, Warriors, Destroyers, Monolith. Woot what do I win, Johnny?

adamsouza wrote:Secondly, if the Dark Eldar were half as good as you seem to belive they are, they would be broken and dominating the tournament scene, and every munchkin 40K player would field them.

They are indeed quite powerful, but they're a finesse army. Finesse armies never catch on with the cheesehounds bigtime because such players rarely have the patience to lose a lot during their early learning curve. When they do have that patience, they become very, very good players. It's hard to stop a good Wych player. I've only ever faced one such skilled player, but I never beat him.
See my comments and Stelek's comments for details on how DE can be extremely dangerous. It's limiting their own vulnerability that is difficult, and that makes them hard to play well (but nasty when they are).

Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

Again, this is due to crappy models, not crappy rules. They're a huge mistake, and no one likes to play with ugly models. Even a good portion of powergamers shy away from crappy models.

Sixth, Dark Eldar magically appear once thier codex was written in 3rd edition. RT Era Pirates morphed into S&M elves. They don't significantly affect ANY other race in the rulebook fiction. Tyranids consume galaxies, Orks if organized would overun everyone else, Necrons are only starting to emerge from stasis, Tau are expanding into Imperial space, and the legions of mankind are blowing up everyone, everywhere, at all times. Dark Eldar show up here and again to raid for slaves and that's about it. If you don't agree, point me to any evidence of the contrary ?

Now that's an interesting point. Basically, the current codex pulls them too far out of line from the RT pirates. I'd like to see them being a bit less inherently evil, a bit more cynical and scared (of Slaanesh, and their inevitable soul-consumption). If you see DE as part of the Eldar pirates (which even under the current fluff is correct), they do indeed have an impact upon the 40K univers. They can strike anywhere, anytime. They are a constant shadowy threat, not a juggernaut like Orks or 'Nids or Abbaddon's 114th Black Crusadeathon. Like the regular Eldar, they are few in number, but their impact is widespread. Thus they diffusely affect everything.

Seventh, the models are fugly. I feel confident of that fact after reading this thread, where the people who actually like dark eldar have stated so repeatedly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholdor, so you can feel free to disagree, but don't try to make it out like I'm the only person who thinks it.

Fortunately, this can be fixed. The rules are okay but need work like any older codex. The models need a serious update, but will be very profitable if done well (as people will be replacing whole armies, as well as buying new ones). I think this is an argument _for_ a DE rerelease, not against.

Stelek wrote:
Which is the effect of having most of their models not be 'marines and the things that kill them'. Warriors, Incubi, Wyches, Raiders. CHECK! Everything else, CRAP.

Dude, if you mean "CRAP" as in "crap looking" I think you're being overly generous. The Raiders are okay. The Incubi are contestants in the "dumbest hat in 40K" contest.

if you mean playability, the jetbikes aren't that bad, nor are the Archon/Dracon choices.

I mean playability.

The archon/dracon/dracite are great choices.

Small jetbikes for tank hunting are ok, but for CC they're horrible.

Alpharius wrote:I think that we'll eventually remember/find that the "Jervis Quote" that "promised" Legion books is something filled with weasel words, vague allusions and a smoke machine.

And really, if they just do the "Big" 4, that really won't cut it for many.

OK, I used the magical wayback power (i.e. "Search"), and this is what I got:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207274.page

Basically, it's a secondhand account of some guy talking with Jervis:

*There are plans in place to implement the Chaos Legions in 40k. That means codex's for Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard etc...bear in mind this is pretty long run stuff.

*There's not going to be much in the way of Lost And The Damned as Jervis feels they're covered already and more suited to Apocalypse as it is.

The idea behind the Chaos legions is that he felt that the last book tried to cover every aspect of the Chaos forces, and did it badly. The way he saw Chaos was as this huge amalgamation of different forces serving the Dark Gods, each deserving their own army book.

The current Chaos codex is meant to represent renegade marines, not necessarily the ancient 10,000 year old servants of Chaos. He felt that while splitting up the different aspects of Chaos into their separate sections while at first painful (as shown by the displeasure at the recent codex) will, in the long run, do each component part more justice than a small 20-30 page footnote in an army book.

Chaos legions WILL be getting a full codex. His exact words were "if we're going to do things, we're going to do them right."

You can make what you will of it. I read this as Jervis saying they're going to do the big 4, eventually.

Savnock wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:My point isn't that they aren't playable. My point is that they aren't distinctively playable. They aren't as special as they should be, and that is a problem that can only be fixed by reconcepting the army.

I disagree. No one else can do skimmer assault like a Wych cult can anymore. KOS fast vehicle assault isn't the same as that at all, as the basic Ork toughness reduces the desperate need to strike first every round.

And the DE version of SAFH may have weapons similar to bolter/las spam in profile, but the troops firing them are both more fragile and more numerous.

And no one else has portal assault after the decline of USF.

Those are plenty of different modes of play IMO. They _hit_ like KOS or Marine SAFH in some cases, but they can't take the same sort of punishment in return. That lends itself to a very different style of play.

IMO, you just proved my point. Are DE Skimmer Assault, SAFH, or Portal Assault? They try to be a lot of things, but aren't very special or distinctive.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, you just proved my point. Are DE Skimmer Assault, SAFH, or Portal Assault? They try to be a lot of things, but aren't very special or distinctive.

What was your point? Seems like you had no point at all.

DE are skimmer assault--like BA are jump pack assault.
DE are SAFH--like BT are SAFH.
DE are portal assault--like DA are deep strike assault.

WOW! One Codex that's 6 years old does what 3 new ones do, and does it better in ALL respects.

So, either I'm a dumbass for not seeing the 'genius' in making 4's (you know, marines) uber in being able to do only ONE thing partially well and calling it both 'very special' and 'distinctive' OR...you're sounding alot like a GW fanboi with nary a hint just how fast the ship is sinking.

Gurgle. Gurgle.

adamsouza wrote:

ok let me stop the most obvious misinformation campaign i have seen

Before you pat yourself on the back too hard, all you did was just post the opposite of everything I said without any proof otherwise.

Secondly, if the Dark Eldar were half as good as you seem to belive they are, they would be broken and dominating the tournament scene, and every munchkin 40K player would field them.

Third, you seem to be the only person who strongly objected to my assertions. Are you playing a with a different Dark Eldar Codex than the rest of us ?

Fourth, notice that I picked at your argument without once insulting you, or insinuating mental imparement on your part.

Fifth, Dark Eldar being mail order only isn't the cause of poor sales, it's the effect of poor Dark Eldar sales. If they sold like hot cakes they would be in the stores, but they don't, so GW US made them mail order only.

Sixth, Dark Eldar magically appear once thier codex was written in 3rd edition. RT Era Pirates morphed into S&M elves. They don't significantly affect ANY other race in the rulebook fiction. Tyranids consume galaxies, Orks if organized would overun everyone else, Necrons are only starting to emerge from stasis, Tau are expanding into Imperial space, and the legions of mankind are blowing up everyone, everywhere, at all times. Dark Eldar show up here and again to raid for slaves and that's about it. If you don't agree, point me to any evidence of the contrary ?

Seventh, the models are fugly. I feel confident of that fact after reading this thread, where the people who actually like dark eldar have stated so repeatedly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholdor, so you can feel free to disagree, but don't try to make it out like I'm the only person who thinks it.

Before you pat yourself on the back too hard, all you did was just post the opposite of everything I said without any proof otherwise.

Really? as i didnt need to post anything to your deliberate misreprensetations

whats the taus ballistic skill? 3 isnt it? what do they hit on? 4's isnt it ?whats the sm ballistic skill? 4 isnt it? what do they hit on? 3 isnt it ? whats the DE ballistic skill 4 isnt it ? what do they hit on? 3's sint it? hmm thats better then the tau, equal to the sm.. oh wait dont let me forget, whats the ballistic skill of most eldar vehicles? 3 isnt it? what do they hit on ? 4 isnt it? what do DE hit on? 3's across the board.

by those facts they are better than tau better than eldar and oh wait what is that? oh yeah equal to sm's.. hmmm that debunks one of your assertions

i already pointed out that the wytch cult army is the best hand to hand army do i need to break that down for you as well?
ok
wytch's ws skill is what? dang codex is at work ok i think its 5 i may be wrong, their init is 6 any unit that doesnt have a str of 6 or better has their ws cut in half so while wytches now hit on 3's everyone else will hit on 4's 5' s depending. ok wytchs str 3 not great not terrible the fact they get combat drugs can make them str 4 make them go first always re roll misses in close combat give them 12" charge +1 ws not a big deal oh and a succubus armed with a poison blades wounds anything on a 2.. Their save in close combat 4+ invo best of any unit out there save 1000 sons but you compared them to killy nids which i just debunked even if the gene stealers charge and wytches dont have drugs saying go first, they are going at the same time as wytches and they will hit less than wytches, their save of 5 against a 4 we get an invo you dont..

thats 2 facts that debunk your opinion based tirade

the rest of your post was opinion based as is mine ,you dont like the models thats your opinion and one i share but doesnt have anything to do with them being a powerful army

i posted they have weak sales and arent known by alot based off of the fact they are mail order only thats a fact not an opinion
if they were a mainstream army they would have better usage by players but alas they are not

no im playing wioth the same dark eldar codex as everyone else i dont thik you have played with it at all or you would not have made those assertions.
Sixth, Dark Eldar magically appear once thier codex was written in 3rd edition. RT Era Pirates morphed into S&M elves. They don't significantly affect ANY other race in the rulebook fiction. Tyranids consume galaxies, Orks if organized would overun everyone else, Necrons are only starting to emerge from stasis, Tau are expanding into Imperial space, and the legions of mankind are blowing up everyone, everywhere, at all times. Dark Eldar show up here and again to raid for slaves and that's about it. If you don't agree, point me to any evidence of the contrary ?"""

What does this have to do with the price of tea in china? does this affect game play at all ? no not even close, as this appears to be more of an attempt to deflect the fact you made assertions that were incorrect
""""

again i go back to the fact that only a few players know anything at all about them. i do know i have seen more and more of the army showing up at rtt's in just about everywhere

and as this my opinion DE are about as tournament winning as IG it takes a lot of things to go right to win the army thats why
you can play cheseed out nidzillas with little or no skill and win, the same thing for alot of armies you have all your saving throws you get all your neat little gadgets.. rule of thumb for DE you shoot them they die

its that simple

please dont comeback and try to drag this out any further i have given you the straight facts about them and have left out as much opinion as i can. you cannot say the same thing

as we all know what opinions are like ok ? thanks for understanding

Well if you really must know the price of tea in china is about $2.14!

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:UTMgtYUxt0MJ:www.tefl.com/home/col_survey.html%3Fcou_id%3D44+%22cost+of+living%22+china+tea&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=24

well said stelek ty for that info

heheheh

davetaylor wrote:This rumor did not come from anyone involved in organizing US Games Days (the Community Development Team). None of us are English and none of us have, unfortunately, been to Houston.

Well that clears some things up. But it still doesn't explain the origin of this mysterious rumor. Hmm... Englishman... Houston... unless... could it be?



False alarm guys. Obviously someone fell asleep watching the Superstation and dreamt a DE codex rumor.