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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Commissar wrote:For what it is worth. I spoke to a GW rep and he was pretty sure considering what Games Workshop has done in the past that the DE would be getting a rules update in say a WD before any codex and then eventually have new sculpted models and a new codex.

Was this "GW rep" director of marketing? Is he in the position to greenlight a DE codex or determine if any studio resources will be allocated towards a DE update? Because if not, then those assurances/speculation are worthless.

This was just a GW employee. He was just making an educated guess with the 10 plus years experience he had with the company based on what they had done previously. He didn't say when a codex or new rules would come out or even speculate what would be in it. So this is just speculation, but fun speculation.

I was told by a GW manager when I was back in New England that he had spoken to a district or regional manager of some sort and was told the DE would not be phased out.

That was over a year ago though so things might have changed.

However I have heard from other GW employees a lot of the same things that I'm reading here. Specificly how the DE are a certain type of army that people don't feel the need to play. Of all the forces of anarchy/chaos/disorder that people like to play the "dark pirate space elves that like torture" just don't do it for them.

I've alwaysw thought they should have their own craftworld and have the options to be pirates or maybe be worshipers of Tzeentch.

I'd buy Demiurg (squats) before I buy revamped Dark Eldar.

Dark Eldar are Space Dark Elves, plain and simple. They exist solely to parity their fantasy counterpart.

Thier tech isn't as good as Eldar.
Their not as killy in hand to hand as nids.
Thier not as shooty as tau/marines/edlar/etc..
Thier fiction is weak
Thier models are some of the worst in 40K
They barely make any money for GW
They could disapear tommorow and not really impact the fictional universe of 40K

They are a so so army at best, that appeals to elf lovers and S&M freaks.

They got an updated codex, and that is probably how they will remain untill they fall into obscurity.

As much as I love the style of a more sinister Craftworld Eldar army (which I covered with my present eldar anyway), the Dark Eldar just don't cut it. They don't add anything to the 40k universe play- and fluffwise, just like adamsouza said.

Hrud or Squats, that would be something interesting.

I like the Dark Elves in Fantasy much more than their high elf pendants. Strange, but I cannot say the same for the Dark Eldar guys...

Greets
Schepp himself

adamsouza wrote:I'd buy Demiurg (squats) before I buy revamped Dark Eldar.

Heh. See now, let's go through your list below to see if Demiurg (Squats), or heck even Hrud (Space Skaven) would make for a better army.

adamsouza wrote:Dark Eldar are Space Dark Elves, plain and simple. They exist solely to parity their fantasy counterpart.

As I imagine Demiurg or Hrud would also be.

adamsouza wrote:Thier tech isn't as good as Eldar.
Their not as killy in hand to hand as nids.
Thier not as shooty as tau/marines/edlar/etc..
Thier fiction is weak
Thier models are some of the worst in 40K
They barely make any money for GW
They could disapear tommorow and not really impact the fictional universe of 40K

Other than points 5 and 6 which we don't know about because there aren't any minis for Demiurg or Hrud yet, I think that all of the points in that list could apply equally to Demiurg or Hrud. As far as the point about S&M freaks goes, well, isn't Slaanesh good enough for them? I think GW's got better things to do with their time than rehash fantasy analogs in 40K. DE may not be "phased out" per se, but seems to me like GW's modus operandi for armies they're not interested in is to just leave them to dessicate in the cold, lonely winds of the Warp, maintaining them with as little effort as possible - I mean, seriously, Chaos Dwarves in WHFB haven't received an update since Ravening Hordes, but you can still download their armylist on GW's website. So, they haven't been "phased out", but you're sure not going to see too many folks playing 'em these days.

Actually, I think Chaos Dwarfs are a pretty good analogy to the Dark Eldar - okay rules (well, CDs have worse rules really), but ugly minis and weak fluff. GW keeps 'em on life support, though, just so folks can't ask if they've been Squatted/Fimired/Fishmanned.

The sad thing about DE sucking so much is that they have the best skimmers in the game. Aside from the pointy bits, my dudes would be riding those things all day searching for highly-trained psykers and shoving them off a plank into a slaaneshi monster with a beak.

I dunno. I think their skimmer/WWP approach is pretty unique. Codex: Daemons may steal their warp gate thunder, but then don't get me started on the concept work behind that book...

Heh. See now, let's go through your list below to see if Demiurg (Squats), or heck even Hrud (Space Skaven) would make for a better army.

Apples and Oranges comparison.

Your trying to compare a failed army (DE) to armies that haven't been released, or written yet.

New Armies ALWAYS generate $$$$ as everyone trips overthemselves trying to collect the newest cool army.

I guarentee that a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg would generate more cash than a Dark Eldar release on that alone.

adamsouza wrote:

Heh. See now, let's go through your list below to see if Demiurg (Squats), or heck even Hrud (Space Skaven) would make for a better army.

Apples and Oranges comparison.

Your trying to compare a failed army (DE) to armies that haven't been released, or written yet.

New Armies ALWAYS generate $$$$ as everyone trips overthemselves trying to collect the newest cool army.

I guarentee that a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg would generate more cash than a Dark Eldar release on that alone.

That's a fairly strong statement adam. How much did money did Demonhunters generate when they were released? And don't give me that "They already existed" crap. Compare that to say, how much did Sisters make when they were redone? Granted both are imperial armies which my askew the numbers a little, but I think you'd be better off either A, reviving Dark Eldar, or B, create something completely new that doesn't have a WHFB counterpart (no Hrud or Demiurg).

adamsouza wrote:Your trying to compare a failed army (DE) to armies that haven't been released, or written yet.

New Armies ALWAYS generate $$$$ as everyone trips overthemselves trying to collect the newest cool army.

I guarentee that a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg would generate more cash than a Dark Eldar release on that alone.

Okay, let's try to make it a little more apples to apples, then.

Would a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg generate more cash than a DE re-release? Probably.*

Would a full scale release of Hrud or Demiurg generate more cash than has already been generated by the DE, including that initial rush as everyone tripped over themselves to collect the newest cool army? I doubt it.

Granted, DE were given a bit of an advantage by being packaged with the box set. Because of that, GW made sure that every player who bought a 3rd Ed box had the beginnings of a DE army and so were given the incentive to build a DE army. Frankly, I think that's probably why even as bad as the DE minis and fluff are that we still see DE armies around.


* Although depending on how completely GW revamped the DE line, you could have most of the existing DE players out there replacing their entire collection of sucky-looking models in addition to drawing in new DE players much as new Demiurg or Hrud players would be brought in.

adamsouza wrote:They are a so so army at best...

Current workability isn't a deciding factor against an army getting a new codex- quite the opposite, really. Otherwise broken codices would never get fixed, because they don't work. Bad logic.

'Sides which, there are plenty of high GT placements with DE now, and they're likely to get a big buff to increase sales. I'd say they are neither terribly underpowered, nor likely to be underpowered in the future.

...that appeals to elf lovers and S&M freaks.

Which are both big markets. Poncey, annoying, hilariously freakish markets to boot, but big spenders in general. And yeah, Slaanesh is interesting, but the "bad elves" thing has never lost it's cache'. Speaking of which:

Death by Monkeys wrote:I think GW's got better things to do with their time than rehash fantasy analogs in 40K.

Dude, 40K is at core a rehash of fantaasy in space- always has been, always will be. They change some of the concepts around (!!11!! THE KNIGHTS HAS POWERED ARMER!!111!! THE ORKS CANS DRIVE!!11), but it's at root a fantasy twist on space opera. And the core idea of "everything has an evil reflection" makes Dark Eldar a natu

Savnock wrote:Dude, 40K is at core a rehash of fantaasy in space- always has been, always will be. They change some of the concepts around (!!11!! THE KNIGHTS HAS POWERED ARMER!!111!! THE ORKS CANS DRIVE!!11), but it's at root a fantasy twist on space opera.

Okay. You got me there. I want to disagree and point out where that's not the case, but I don't have enough evidence to argue otherwise. I mean going back to Rogue Trader, I'd say that Space Marines were more Starship Trooper MI troops than knights, but RT also introduced Space Orks, Eldar, and Squats to us. I also wanted to point out that Tyranids are more stolen from Aliens than anything in Fantasy, but then I remembered that the original 'Nids were actually reptiles more closely akin to the Slann than to the insectoids they became.

EDIT- genuniely odd double post. Sorry.

That's a fairly strong statement adam. How much did money did Demonhunters generate when they were released? And don't give me that "They already existed" crap. Compare that to say, how much did Sisters make when they were redone? Granted both are imperial armies which my askew the numbers a little, but I think you'd be better off either A, reviving Dark Eldar, or B, create something completely new that doesn't have a WHFB counterpart (no Hrud or Demiurg).

Skipping the questions I can't possibly provide answers for..

If your PRO DE of course you want to see them redone, if your not, like me, them releasing anything else is an improvement.

Now, I do agree with you that a fresh new army, like TAU, would be preferable to a fantasy parity army

I disagree with DE rehash woud outsell Demiurg or Hrud.

Putting the DE in the old boxset was the biggest thing DE had going for them. Everyone had some, and you either tried them out, or traded them cheap to someone else who was willing to. That situation is not going to repeat itself.

DE already exist and are currently availalble. I would much rather see time and money spent to develop additional armies.

A completely new army would be best, but a yet unreleased fantasy parity army (Demiurg, Hrud) would be preferable to a rehash of a fantasy parity army they already did.

No amount of wishfull elfloving thinking will change that

Current workability isn't a deciding factor against an army getting a new codex- quite the opposite, really. Otherwise broken codices would never get fixed, because they don't work. Bad logic.

My point wasn't that they needed help. DE are the poster child for vanilla army design that was prevelant in early 3E.
They aren't broke, they don't need fixing, they just aren't particularly good at anything.

My point is that only DE Diehards want them redone.

I know more people who play LOTR than play DE.
I know more people who play Demonhunters than DE.
I know more people who play *Insert ANY 40K army here* than DE.
I know more people who own/play Gorkamorka/Mordheim/Necromunda/BloodBowl than DE.
I know more people who would play Squats over DE if given the choice.

I can't even recall the last time I saw someone field a DE army in my FLGS.

The internet has a way of bringing fetishists together, but they are still minorities. Whatever advocates for S&M elves there are in this thread, the hobby, on the planet, they clock in under 1% of the population.

It's not even the point. I LIKE S&M GOTH ELVES !!! That's why I collect Legions of Everblight.
DE just suck, they have little to no redeeming qualities.

IF ANYONE IS GOING TO ARGUE WITH ME ABOUT THIS, ARGUE THIS POINT.
WHAT ARE THE REDEEMING QUALITIES OF DARK ELDAR AND WHY SHOULD NON DARK ELDAR FANATICS WANT THEM TO GET LOVE ?

Hmm, I'll bite. What are the redeeming qualities of Dark Eldar and why should non-Dark Eldar fanatics want them to get love?

Well, Dark Eldar present a style of play that is somewhat hard to find in other armies. An incredibly fast strike force capable of being in the enemies deployment zone on turn 1. Now there are a couple armies that can do this as well (Speed Freaks, Eldar, Tyranids), but Dark Eldar do it with a different type of style. They're a glass cannonball which is appealing to some players. Eldar can do a lot of the same things, but without cool Chaos additions. They're like the Chaos version of Eldar. Now before you say that anything Dark Eldar can do Space Marines can do better it doesn't matter. Space Marines > All and that's why they should die in a .

Commissar wrote:I was told by a GW manager when I was back in New England that he had spoken to a district or regional manager of some sort and was told the DE would not be phased out.

That was over a year ago though so things might have changed.

And there's the kicker. I'm sure they don't "intend" to discontinue the DE. I'm sure they "plan" to revisit them "someday" - just like I "intend" to paint all the minis I own "eventually".

Savnock wrote:And while they don't have tons of good fluff, some decent basework has been done. by basework, i mean mainly carving them a place amongst the 40K background, with a nice "vacant 'till wecan write something worthwhile" sign hanging from it. Between this and the fairly-workable current rules to start from they have quite a bit already invested, and many otherwise-significant costs sunk.

The 40k universe is a big place. Plenty of races have room in the fluff for expansion. And the rules? Since when has GW given a sh!t about the rules? The last thing GW looks for when laying the groundwork for a new release is a set of "fairly-workable current rules" - the rules writers love fiddling just for the sake of fiddling so they'd probably end up screwing them up before release anyway. No, the big costs are the design concepts and the minis - and in the case of DE that's what would need to be redone from scratch. Of course they wouldn't be working from scratch - they'd have the awful drek that is the current DE fluff to contend with.

Quite simply put, DE are the mouth-breathing Morley-esque midget-bearing mongoloids of the 40k universe and it's high time Tina Turner put them out of our misery with a few well-placed crossbow bolts through the chest.

I just don't think they're going the way of the squat anytime soon.

But they are. Their codex was released at the very beginning of 3rd and they've gone through an entire edition without an update. Remember what happened to the squats? GW didn't suddenly come out one day and say "all your squat are belong to us". No, they simply let them founder without model releases or new rules until finally their old rules were no longer compatible with the core rules. "Going the way of the squat" is the default state for every army which doesn't have an upcoming codex release scheduled. Until they have a new codex on the way to the printers and new minis on the way to the stores, DE will be "going the way of the squat".

Stormtrooper X wrote:I think you'd be better off either A, reviving Dark Eldar, or B, create something completely new that doesn't have a WHFB counterpart (no Hrud or Demiurg).

WHFB counterpart? What WHFB counterpart? Let's do a comparison. Here, let me get out a Skaven mini and Hrud mini and compare them side-by-side. No sir, they don't look similar at all IMHO. Of course this might have something to do with the fact that Hrud minis do not exist. I don't see how you can claim a race has a WHFB counterpart when that race has no minis for it. DE on the other hand do.

adamsouza wrote:WHAT ARE THE REDEEMING QUALITIES OF DARK ELDAR AND WHY SHOULD NON DARK ELDAR FANATICS WANT THEM TO GET LOVE ?

I have a related question:

WHAT CAN THE DARK ELDAR ACCOMPLISH THAT COULDN'T BE ACCOMPLISHED LESS EMBARRASSINGLY (THAT IS, WITHOUT RESORTING TO THE LAMENESS INHERENT IN THE EVIL ELF ARCHETYPE) BY REPLACING ALL THE DARK ELDAR INFANTRY MODELS WITH DELICIOUS HERSHEY'S KISSES AND THE VEHICLES WITH TOBLERONES?

Stormtrooper X wrote:Hmm, I'll bite. What are the redeeming qualities of Dark Eldar and why should non-Dark Eldar fanatics want them to get love?

Well, Dark Eldar present a style of play that is somewhat hard to find in other armies. An incredibly fast strike force capable of being in the enemies deployment zone on turn 1. Now there are a couple armies that can do this as well (Speed Freaks, Eldar, Tyranids), but Dark Eldar do it with a different type of style. They're a glass cannonball which is appealing to some players. Eldar can do a lot of the same things, but without cool Chaos additions. They're like the Chaos version of Eldar. Now before you say that anything Dark Eldar can do Space Marines can do better it doesn't matter. Space Marines > All and that's why they should die in a .

So they do what other armies can do, only not as effeciently, but that's okay because being S&M Elves somehow makes it cool ?

I'm breaking out the Hershey Kisses and Toblerones....... at least I can have a tasty snack to wash the taste, of , out of my mouth.

How are evil elves any lamer than good elves? Elves are elves are elves.

It's like space marines and space marines with spikes. The spikes version is undoubtedly lame. Now add the fact that elves are lame and it's lame^lame. I don't know who would play such a crappy army.

I know two DE players that regularly finish at or near the top of rogue trader tournaments. They aren't from my area but I've seen them at tournaments and at Origins in Columbus, Ohio. Besides those two I know a few other people who play DE with not quite as much success.

I wasn't that interested in the army in the past, but as I get older the idea of wicked, psycopathic, piratical raiders gets more interesting. I play this game because I like to paint minis and imagine the epic conflicts between heroic space marines or imperial guard against the overwhelming orks/nids, or the corruption of chaos. Dark eldar fit right into this mold of insidious, implacable evil. Do the squats really add anything to the marine, guard, sob, or demonhunter armies? I don't even know anything about the Hrud, besides a couple of lines here and there.

I think the DE models kick ass. The army is sinister and dark, but somehow still alluring in a twisted way. I can sink my teeth into them, metaphorically speaking. The tyranids, while terrific on the table top, evince in me one idea, HUNGRY. Not exactly something that grabs me and holds on...

For a while about a month ago, I was actually pricing out all the bits I'd need to use the WHFB Skaven plastics with Kroot Rifles to make a Hrud counts-as DE army...It'd be easy to do, you'd have a decent army list, and nice models...just can't figure out what to do about those lousy Raider chassis skimmers.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Savnock wrote:But with decent minis and some minor fluff work, they could be just as viable as the regular Eldar.

And so could LatD, Ad Mech, Hrud, Squats, and Pan Fo. That doesn't mean any of those armies are getting released. If GW are going to invest all these resources to basically do an army from scratch why should that army be DE? If they're essentially introducing a "new" race to the game, is it wise to pick the candidate with a proven track record of poor sales?

Well look at Wood Elves in Fantasy. They were the last to get a book, miniatures were ugly, and no one played them. GW redid the fluff, made some of the best plastic models ever, and now they are one of the more popular armies in WHFB. So I disagree that you should look at previous model sales as an indication of future model sales. Wood Elves proved that if you do it right, you can turn an unpopular army into a fantastic one.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

You know what's funny, a lot of the people screaming to kill DE are the same people involved in the uber-whinefest that was the removal of LatD.

I just find that amusing.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I don't understand what all the hate is about here. Dark Eldar do have a backstory, it's a good backstory in fact, go read the little snippit by Andy Chambers on the UK site from a few years back, it's great. Fact of the matter is, though, Dark Eldar are the army for the advanced player, back when 40k had a scale for which armies were harder to play and which armies were easier. Jervis has already made it quite clear that they are currently working on the Dark Eldar line and they will be redone soon enough, and your hopes for Squats will never happen. Do you not remember when GW had their own forum? You could get kicked off for just mentioning that army, so what makes you think they'll ever come back? And from what I understand there were Space Skaven before, and nothing about the Hrud says Skaven to me, they're completely nocturnal and don't have advanced tech, Skaven are neither of these, in fact they're the highest tech army in fantasy. And to a prior comment, Dark Eldar wouldn't worship Tzeentch, they hate Chaos as much as most other armies.

No hate they are just the evil cousins of Eldar just like the chaos marines are the Evil brothers of Space marines.

Hell all we need now is the Evil brother of the Orks to turn up.

beef wrote:Hell all we need now is the Evil brother of the Orks to turn up.

Or do we need the Good brother of the Orks to turn up? You know, Orks that are all about peacefulness and getting along with each other.

adamsouza wrote:

So they do what other armies can do, only not as effeciently, but that's okay because being S&M Elves somehow makes it cool ?

I'm breaking out the Hershey Kisses and Toblerones....... at least I can have a tasty snack to wash the taste, of , out of my mouth.

Since when does having a similar tactical style matter in 40k? Tau and Eldar can both produce lists that play almost exactly the same (Mech Tau and 3 falcon jetbike lists). Marines and Chaos Marines can be played in manners which are virtually identical (gun line, rhino rush, deepstrike). Tau and Guard can produce similar armies as well (light gun line supported by tanks). The list goes on, and I can absolutely gurantee that none of these lists are equally efficient. What makes an army unique in 40k is the way in which potential styles combine to produce a distinct collection of options. It's simply not matter of "How can I max out one capability to make a list which dominates a single phase of the game?".

I think what your argument really comes down to a distaste for the aesthetic of DE, and that really isn't a reason to be so vehemently opposed to them getting new stuff. I don't like Tau, I don't think their fluff fits well in 40k, but that doesn't mean that I don't see a reason for them to get attention.

Also, every army in 40k is essentially a rehash of a fantasy archetype, if not a specific race from WHFB.
Empire = Guard + Inquisition + Sisters
Marines = Brets
Chaos = Chaos
Orcs = Orks (apparently k's are more futuristic)
VC/TK = Necrons
HE = Eldar
Lizardmen = Nids (hordes of specially bred soldiers lead by a hivemind/slan, though in this case I think it was more a case of sci-fi being brought to fantasy)
and, of course
DE = DE
But let's also be clear here, models might not exist for Demiurg or Hrud, but there are very clear ties to certain themes used in WHFB for both Dwarfs and Skaven.

Edit: Forgot Tau = WE (strong themes of harmony and preservation of an ideal, very similar mobile play style)

The Dark Eldar can be really cool as they are Eldar as they used to be. No limits, no excess to great, you can see in them how Slaanesh was born. They just need to delve in to that more and explain what makes the Dark Elves tick, rather than just, "we like torture and spikes!"

In gaming terms, they play unlike any other army out there and are difficult to play well (which along with the fugly models explains why their sales are lower than other armies).

BTW, I am not an elf lover (in fact, I've never like Eldar, High or Dark Elves, but do like Wood Elves) and am definitely not into BDSM. I play Dark Eldar because of the challenge, every win I've earned.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Unless they are doing a good job of keeping DE under wraps (or the pipe dream inspired dual release with Dark Elves), I think we only have a chance for an updated DE somewhat soon, if they put in some stripped down Army Lists in the core book like they did in 3rd or a paper booklet like 2nd that is shrinkwrapped with the Corebook. Or maybe a new FAQ (talk about a pipe dream).

Edit: I volunteer the Tau as the "good Orks." Both seem to be races engineered by some outside agency for unknown purposes. Orks have their innate tech, Tau have "superior" tech. Orks are green, Tau are blue. See, mirror twins of Good and Evil.

Ozymandias wrote:You know what's funny, a lot of the people screaming to kill DE are the same people involved in the uber-whinefest that was the removal of LatD.

The less armies around, the better chance that LatD will get picked back up.

I remember being of a similar opinion for my SoBs back in the day.

(I personally defend LatD these days because I think it could, if themed as "the whole Imperial military turned to Chaos" be a much better and flavorful Chaos than the Chaos Space Marine concept, which is basically normal Space Marines but with spikes.

Ozymandias wrote:Well look at Wood Elves in Fantasy. They were the last to get a book, miniatures were ugly, and no one played them. GW redid the fluff, made some of the best plastic models ever, and now they are one of the more popular armies in WHFB. So I disagree that you should look at previous model sales as an indication of future model sales. Wood Elves proved that if you do it right, you can turn an unpopular army into a fantastic one.

And that's why instead of Dark Eldar they should just do Exodites instead. I mean come on - a bunch of stupid ugly S&M elf pirates or elves riding big flippin' dinosaurs!!! Dinosaurs are totally awesome and that's a fact. And if you don't believe it they will bite your head off!!! It's an easy choice, if you ask me.