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Ozymandias wrote:You know what's funny, a lot of the people screaming to kill DE are the same people involved in the uber-whinefest that was the removal of LatD.

LatD aren't made out of elf.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And that's why instead of Dark Eldar they should just do Exodites instead. I mean come on - a bunch of stupid ugly S&M elf pirates or elves riding big flippin' dinosaurs!!! Dinosaurs are totally awesome and that's a fact. And if you don't believe it they will bite your head off!!! It's an easy choice, if you ask me.

True dat, yo. Not to mention the fact that they've already got a good portion of the models done - Cold Ones, Carnosaurs, and Stegadons are already done. Man, that's a good chunk of the design budget you don't have to worry about!

So you're a racist then. I knew it!!

BTW, when I said, "a lot of people", I was only referring to you abby.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I was going to say something about objections here being really aesthetic rather than business-based, but Dogma beat me to it. If you don't care for an army's play style, don't play them. Play against them, and learn to beat them, or take your toys and go home.

LaTD is different from other armies because most of their minis are puled from other lines, reducing the shelf space they take up (which makes it even more slowed that they aren't supported). They're really not in competition with other lines for anything other than rules development. So DE development does not shove aside LaTD development. That argument is not sound.

And right on Ozy about the WE example. DE are unpopular because the minis are fugly, not because of crappy rules (they're actually pretty good compared to the rules WH and DH are stuck with). if they had good minis, and the fluff were expanded in an interesting direction (like the obvious but interesting "this is the way most Eldar were before the Fall"), they could sell well and be fun to have around. Whether you like S&M space elves or not.

Speaking of crappy minis, the plastics aren't that bad with a head switch and sans the add-on spikes. I'm using them as the base for Exodite conversions, and they aren't half bad. Everything metal in the line is unsalvageably terrible though, with the exception of the special characters. Did Juan Diaz do the characters while someone else did the Wyches, plastics, etc.? I'd like to know who to blame...

Savnok hit the head on the nail with Fugly minaitures and underdeveloped fluff.

My point is that I would much rather see them do something non evil elf related, that attempt to fix Dark Eldar.

They redo Chaos over, and over, and over, and over, and I still don't play them. Them doing Dark eldar a third time around seems about as usefull

I have 3 units of Wyches made from Dark Elf Witch Elves. Simple weapon swaps and I have units that look great.

I don't mind the Raider, but the character models are terrible and the plastic warriors are staticriffic.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The Warrior models are what kills it for me, and I don't see myself buying a ton of whyches. They need to redo some of the models badly.

Ozymandias wrote:BTW, when I said, "a lot of people", I was only referring to you abby.

I know.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Not to mention the fact that they've already got a good portion of the models done - Cold Ones, Carnosaurs, and Stegadons are already done.

Well, they've got the Carnosaurs done. As for the Cold Ones and Stegadons... well, that goes right back to our original problem of releasing an army of super-fugly minis, now doesn't it?

Lots of hate here heheh.

I still see a bunch of DE out there so no, players have not abandond the army. Some posts are dead on. The models are ugly and two dimensional except for the raiders and ravagers. They are just damn ugly . They need to update the models and yeah some of their rules just dont make sense in the current rules set.
GW is in the buisness of selling models, the rules are a side thread. When they release new armies with good minis they sell a boatload of stuff, granted it sits on alot of shelves but they sell none the less and that is what they care about. If they released good looking models for DE they would sell. Not just for those of us that have some strange loyalty towards them but because they were good looking and functional again. I dont play em much now at tourneys because they are mainly embarrassing to look at!!
As for starting a "new race" rather than working on DE I have to say WTF?!?! Do you realize the time investment and logistics of that? OOO a new army based on a race of slime..... Work on an army that already has a customer base rather than try to develop a new race completely. There are several races with "evil versions" (SM-CSM, Tau-Oshavah, IG-Latd, E-DE). Heck in Demonhunters you can be heretical if you want so even in the "ultimate good guys" you have bad.
I agree with the statement of the plastic warriors are not bad if you chunk the heads and spikes but the rest is junk.

adamsouza wrote:Savnok hit the head on the nail with Fugly minaitures and underdeveloped fluff.

My point is that I would much rather see them do something non evil elf related, that attempt to fix Dark Eldar.

They redo Chaos over, and over, and over, and over, and I still don't play them. Them doing Dark eldar a third time around seems about as usefull

Yeah, and you don't play Dark Eldar either, the people out there that do play the army have a right to see their army redone, just like everyone else. I waited years jumping from army to army, waiting for the Ork codex to be redone, now it's finally here. There's no sense saying you don't want the codex redone just because you want to see something other than "evil elves". Well maybe some people would like to see something done other than "evil guard" or Marines, or maybe some people were mad because Orks got redone, it still doesn't mean it shouldn't be redone, these players deserve to have their armies updated, plain and simple.

Well, I wouldn't say its a "right" but I do agree. Dark Eldar have models, a codex of their own, and at least some fluff. LatD had the fluff but that's about it. They never had a proper codex and never had their own models.

So I do think that DE is more deserving of an update than LatD.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Burna Stompa wrote:Yeah, and you don't play Dark Eldar either, the people out there that do play the army have a right to see their army redone, just like everyone else.

Yeah, Ozy beat me to the punch, but none of us have a right to see any of our armies redone. Just because we've paid some money to play an army doesn't mean that army will continue to be supported. I'm not saying this because I think the DE should or shouldn't be supported. I'm just pointing out that we're not talking about a democracy here. AFAIK, GW's never produced a Gamer's Bill of Rights. This is capitalism. And if enough players make something economically viable for the designers to turn their attention to it, then the company will get to work on it. I mean, you can have horrible fluff, bad minis, and bad rules, but as long as you get enough people to show they'll pay through the nose and make the company a profit, GW'll find a way to make it work.

By this logic, for the monetary investment I put into my Star Wars collection as a youngster, I had a right for Star Wars episodes I-III be a helluva lot better than they were. But does George Lucas give a damn about me? Nah. I don't think so.

You also make an interesting point - as long as you continue playing other armies, jumping from army to army, not only do you not encourage your old Codex to be redone, with your dollars spent on these other armies, you're showing your support for these other lines and showing why they deserve more support.

I hope they relaunch DE. Cool theme, some fugly models. Plus, the difference between anything else and DE is a lot more than the difference between Blue, Red, Green, Grey, and Black Marines - combined. What the metagame needs now is less MEQ.

There is plenty of sense in it. I have the 'right' to express my opinion on how piss poor of an idea the Dark Eldar are. I also have the 'right' to express the opinion that they should invest their time in to producing something different.

You are free to disagree with me, but so far that strongest argument for Dark Eldar in this thread, so far, has boiled down to people who already have a fetish for Dark Eldar wanting more, I'm not feeling the strength of the other side of the argument.

If the argument was:
I have a dwarf fetish.
Space Dwarves exist in 40K.
GW Needs to spend millions releaseing Squats

You'd tear my argument apart in a minute.

But, substitute Dark Eldar for Squat and it somehow becomes a valid argument ?

I think not

I dont believe any army is superior over another and I would rather see a LaTD army and a DE rather than one go into obscurity. This coming from a DE player of +5 years.

There are 3 things that prevent a DE from being a popular army and the firs tis of course the horrid model line. Can you really find another army out there that has for their models one with a**less chaps? Another is a lack of support.

Aside from the update 5-6 years ago, DE have gotten little or no support by GW rather than just existing and without a decent push how do you expect to sell them? I have been inside a GW store where I was looking at some of the DE minis and to have a GW employee try and discourage me from them and rather space marines until I told him I play with the army and that shut him up right there there could have been a potential loss of sales for DE. Now also they are using a 3rd edition codex that doesn't even have any troops with infiltration along with a design philosophy made for 3rd.

Finally the army is not meant for a beginner and never really has been. I had the unfortunate luck of going through months of losing before I could win with the army when I started out. The army hits hard but cant take a hit back and thats where many of the new players rather than toughen up and learn, really prefer instant gratification and choose an army with a more forgiving margin of error.

Am I a fluff fanatic of Dark Eldar, not really but I enjoy the playing style of Dark Eldar and the challenge of the army rather than another Space marine army, or a mindless army like orks or nids. The same fluff argument can be made with any other army with Orks its "we love to fight waaggh!" or Nids is "we devour you", DH/WH "kill/purge/cleanse impure deamon/psyker/infidel".

JJ admitted that the real reason we lost the Squats, was not sales (which were quite good, especially for an army that never got a Codex of its own), it was the lack of a champion for the Squats on the Design Team (now a bean counter might do ). This is why almost all Chapter Approved armies never got any farther than such. I, for one, would buy a Squat army if they came back (and I admittedly mocked and scorned them during the original release). I like the DE codex (I have used it as a proxy for AdMech), their fluff is ok, but the models are MegaFugly.

The last word I heard about Dark Eldar was that Jes Goodwin had taen a personal interest in the range. This was at GDLA IIRC.

That's a good sign in my book.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

adamsouza wrote:There is plenty of sense in it. I have the 'right' to express my opinion on how piss poor of an idea the Dark Eldar are. I also have the 'right' to express the opinion that they should invest their time in to producing something different.

You're right, you do have those rights. But unless you're a shareholder, can convince enough other people to vote with their wallets or via other methods (see what happened with the show 'Jericho'), or get a court order, you don't have a right to force the company to do something they don't want to do. But yes, you and everyone else can certainly voice their opinions about it. What else is the internet for?

As far as the opinions for and against, I don't really see convincing arguments either way. Consequently, all I see is DE and any other new races being a low priority with GW for a while.

Death By Monkeys wrote:By this logic, for the monetary investment I put into my Star Wars collection as a youngster, I had a right for Star Wars episodes I-III be a helluva lot better than they were.

OT: Nobody has a right for Star Wars Episode III to be a helluva lot better than it was. Wait, scratch that. Star Wars Episode III was a helluva lot better than it had any right to be. I mean come on - the Emperor throws the freaking Galactic Senate at Yoda! The Senate! Besides being a delightful allegorical take on how Big Government and the Man conspire to use the legislative system to keep the little guy down, it's just plain hilarious - Sidious sure seems to think so - just look at the fun that guy's having! Episode III is by far my favorite Star Wars movie. I laugh out loud every time someone gets some force lightning to the face - AWESOME! Of course I always just skip all the scenes that don't have Ian McDiarmid in them and I'm usually drinking heavily throughout so maybe I'm not watching the same movie as everybody else...

I think there may be some confusion over cause and effect here. I believe that DE don't sell well because, primarily, there is no effort to improve them or market them. Most new players probably have never heard of them or seen them being played, ever. It seems that people believe that DE aren't supported because they are poor sellers, when it seems like it should be the other way around.

Personally, I love the "we can't take a paperclip to the face, but we can shove a squatmillion darklances down your throat" approach of the army. I even like the Raider models, and the warrior models wouldn't be so bad with some alterations. I just never played them because I hated the other half of the range, and........

All the Emo kids played them.

Dark Eldar should have been the Eldar Pirates from the RT era. They lack the Eldar feel, almost entirely, and they don't even have the best aspects of the Dark Elves.

They remind me of generic evil elves, with pilfered Air Raider vehicles and skyboards they stole from the Masters of the Universe Movie.

If I were ever decision impared enough to decide to collect and field them, I would use Dark Elf Models as much as possible.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Savnock wrote:But with decent minis and some minor fluff work, they could be just as viable as the regular Eldar.

And so could LatD, Ad Mech, Hrud, Squats, and Pan Fo. That doesn't mean any of those armies are getting released.

The DE Fluff and minis range is very limited, so there is no way the DE could ever be as viable as the regular Eldar. Remember that DE cannot be developed to the point where they compete with Tau as a mobile shooty force, nor specialized like Eldar Aspects. And playing a horde of any kind is the most anti-Eldar concept possible, while S3 T3 Power Armor is already covered by SoB. So without any special niche, DE are destined to be Squatted.

Chaos Traitors & Mutants would be a welcome addition to complete the 40k Trinity of Marines, Daemons, and Traitors. The list would be quite viable but ex-LatD players would have to accept generic Lesser Daemons and basic (Markable) CSM limited to a HQ option.

Adeptus Mechanicus would be an awesome army, as GW could really do a nice job with the Skittari. Plus, guys like Horweth have done a lot of the hard work already in terms of visual design.

Space Skaven / Hrud would be playable as a horde, and has a lot of room to explore.

I thought Pan Fo was already done as Tau? Not that there isn't room for another T3 horde army...

Of course if Dark Eldar were actually redone as *Chaos* Eldar, then they'd have some real potential...

I was actually a little disappointed when the latest Eldar rules came out and there's nothing saying that you can use the Harlequins with DE. I mean, there's fluff saying that you should be able to. I mean, GW could throw the DE players a bone.

I was thinking about what it would take to improve DE, and I came to similar conclusion that they should have a greater tie to chaos.

What really seperates them from Eldar is supposed to be their link to Slaneesh right ?

Add in some demonic traits, some lesser demons, and a possesed HQ and Elites, and I think they could go somewhere.

It would also explain their facination with spikes/evil/debauchery/etc...

Although, I think actually calling them Chaos Eldar would be terrible. They need to make up something, in Eldar, that would basically mean Fallen Ones or something.

Um, they don't really have a link to Slaanesh. I mean, they don't worship her/him/it. They do try to keep it at bay by feeding it souls, and otherwise try to evade having their essences consumed. They might even have some form of communication with it, making deals until they lose. I'm not sure what their alternative to the infinity circuit is, or if they even have one. It can't be a good thing, though.

Speaking of which, one of the big fluff holes is where they get new DE. I mean, I'd think they would be even less motivated to reproduce than the regular Space Elves. Maybe the webway draws out their lifespan, but that life_style_ can't encourage longevity. Then again, maybe they're the Keith Richards of the 40K universe. Perhaps combat drugs have a pickling effect when used in quantity.

JohnHwang, when was the last time you played DE? They can be a really nasty mixed shooting/assault force, or a SAFH if fielded all-infantry with, as mentioned above, a squatmillion dark lances. Wych cults are scary too.

Savnock wrote:Then again, maybe they're the Keith Richards of the 40K universe.

Alright Savnock. You thought you could get away with it. You thought no one would notice. YOU THOUGHT WRONG!

By my DakkaKlok the above post occurred at 2008/03/22 06:55:51. But wait, what's this?

Savnock wrote:The legs inside that armor must be skinnier than Kieth Richards', even if it's ceramispandex.

That post was time-stamped 2008/03/21 18:46:10 - not more than 13 hours prior! That's TWO Keith Richards references in less than 24 hrs!

I'm sorry Savnock, but you've left me no choice but to write you up for excessive Keith Richards reference.

Maybe a switch to a heavy infiltrating/scouting theme could make the DE play a little bit different. They are raiders after all.

Greets
Schepp himself

I don't think just throwing demons and chaos marines into the mix is the way to go with Dark Eldar. They aren't worshippers of Chaos, they simply give into their lust for whatever they are interested in at the time. That doesn't automatically slap a mark of chaos on everyone.

What something a little more orky? I'm not talking squigs in raiders . What I mean is the "goofy" stuff that happens to Orks (like a stormboy being shot off into space) DE can simulate with their souls being destroyed. Example, hmm, say the leader of a warrior unit has some psychic ability, something nasty, but if he uses it there is a good chance he goes "poof". Could be a cool last ditch thing to show Dark Eldar being desperate. It's just an idea I'm throwing out there. I don't want the idea of a Dark Eldar Imperial Psycher or something.

Awwee come one, Eldar Are resposible for creating Slaneesh aren't they ?

Their wanton lust and excess is what Slaneesh is all about.

How can they not have a connection to Slaneesh ?

It is true that they created Slaneesh, but they do not worship him. They fear him.