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H.B.M.C. wrote:

sebster wrote:If they could deploy their 10 strong unit for 1/3 less than the points they currently cost, they're a lot closer to being viable.

Viable at what?

They're not tough enough to withstand anything attacking them and they die too quickly to cause any real damage.

So, I ask again, viable at what?

There are cheaper units to act as tarpits and cheaper units that can cause lots of damage.

BYE

So you make them cheaper than alternative tarpits. It isn't rocket surgery.

They can't tarpit!!!!!!! Isn't that obvious to you? It's certainly not brain science.

To be useful Ogryn have to do one of two things:

1. Stop units dead with their durability.
2. Kill lots of enemy models before they die.

They're too easy to kill to fill the first role, and because they die so quickly, they never get a chance to fill the second role.

They have to work in units of 10, or 6, so that either means they get a dramatic increase in damage power (making them akin to Rough Rider Hunting Lances, but better), or they get tougher.

Making them cheaper achieves neither of these.


Furthermore, I have a saying:

Points are not the great leveler.


If I have a broken radio on sale for $10, and you offer me $1, is it somehow a more viable purchase? It still doesn't work. The radio's still broken.

In other words, if something is crap, making it cheaper just means that it's cheaper crap. You cannot expect that changing the points on something will work as a solution. It takes more than that.

BYE

I dunno, I think all units of multi-wound models should be immune to Instant Death, to be honest with you.

You pay so many points to get a unit of demi-heros, and it just gives your opponent the opportunity to kill many demi-heros at once, and provides a great target.

As much as I respect the power a STR 10 template should be capable of, it just seems wrong to drop it on a unit of Oblits and wipe them out to the man. Aren't you guys supposed to be tougher than that?

Maybe make Instant-Death only work on a 4+, or only work on units of multi-wound models on a 4+. Or something similar. Definitely adds another element of totally random to the game, which I think is bad, but as a Guardsmen, I just can't give up on Instant Death entirely!

That being said, my Ogryn almost always perform well. But I just think my opponents aren't sure how to counter them yet. Until then, they fear the 3 wound wall.

Hey! Maybe give them all power weapons? Won't make them more durable, but will make their hits all that more spectacular.

That and I dream about Ogryns with Powerfists/Power weapons. Makes me giddy.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?

There isn't one. All solutions to the 'Ogryn Problem' are bad. Some are less bad, but they're all bad. The first point is, what is the 'Ogryn Problem'. You have to define that before you can even attempt to look at the pathetic solutions. The Ogryn problem is twofold:

I agree with your assessment, but not necessarily your conclusions. I think the best thing GW could do would be to remove the unit from the codex, since there's really nothing they can do that'd both make them viable and not snap the fluff in half.

Ogryns should've never survived the move to 3E, and now's as good a time as any to fix it.

Failing that, I'd be happy withl take T5, powerweapons and decent unit champion upgrades. The designers could throw on an extra 5 points if it made their little monkey brains happier.

Ogryn have been one of the most hotly discussed units on the IG wishlist as long as I've been playing (about seven years). For starters, there is no reason for them to have 3 wounds, that's simply a hold over from fantasy where Ogres have three wounds. Ditto the high strength weapons without any rules: in fantasy a S6 hit throws a -3 modifier on any save it encounters. In 40k, power armor simply laughs.

As HBMC points out, points alone won't help. Ogryn have two major weaknesses: they don't kill enough to win combats, and they're far too vulnerable to powerfists to tarpit. By the time you drop the points enough to make them fair against fists, units without the fist (or that lose one early on) will struggle against a dirt cheap wall of T4.

How to fix against fists? Well, you can increase their durability over all. Higher Tougness, immune to ID, an invulernable save, or even some complicated special rule. Call it Too Stupid to Die: Ogryns are ferioucious hand to hand opponents that tower over most enemies, and weapons designed to destroy man sized targets seldom work properly. Any non-vehicle unit fighting against Ogryn gain no benefit from Powerfists, powerclaws, thunderhammers, etc.

It's a decent rule, and it fixes the problem, but it's the worst kind of rule: the patch. An invulnerable save makes little sense and will be of limited effect. Crisis teams like them because they can take drones to absorb the hits. Instant death doens't make much sense either. It works for Tyranid Warriors because they still suck even with it. Ogryn with Eternal Warrior could shrug off demolisher cannon, which doesn't seem right.

IMO, the most viable option is a bump to T5. Does it make sense? Not horribly, but it's what it is. The Instant Death Rules are a crude mechanic, and working around them requires equally crude mechanics. I'd drop Ogryn to 2 wounds and give them a 4+ save to make them just as good against light infantry, but T5 will keep them in more fights.

As for killing, I have no problem with giving the Bonehead a power weapon (perhaps two handed?), and increasing the squads attacks.

I wish they would just do away with the whole AP thing and just make the saves based on str like in fantasy. But that will never happen.

They also won't remove Ogryns because they just made new models for them.. so I would expect them to stick around.

T5 seems like the best band aid fix for them. Lower points would be nice too. I haven't gotten any ogryn models yet cuz I just don't know how to fit them into my army, should they shoot stuff? assaut? counter assault? I think they need to define their role better. I think it would be great to have them be a tarpit kind of unit, a defensive cc unit. It might also be cool if they could be added to a platoon so that with the rumored platoon drill skill, you can have them screen your platoons and still be able to shoot through em


As for the 22 tanks.. I don't see that happening either.. unless they're making a whole new chassis like maybe the Machurious and/or the Malcador.. if they make a whole mess of different options for the russ, most players are gonna settle for the cheapest/best version anyway and most of the other new kinds will hardly ever be used.

sebster wrote:
Powerfists will still mess them up but GW has made an effort to reduce the number of powerfists out there...

Just watch- I bet Marine Sergeants will be able to take double powerfists.

What would happen if you lowered the points a bit and gave them rending in melee? Yea, I know everything and its brother gets rending to beef it up, but it actually makes sense in this case that Ogryn have a chance to just crush through any armor they smash.
I would also be in favor of giving the Bone 'ead a power maul or something as an upgrade.
Possibly they add 1 or 2 to their combat resolution? Might help as well.

Wehrkind wrote:Possibly they add 1 or 2 to their combat resolution? Might help as well.

Now that's an interesting thought - I mean, in WHFB, larger models count their unit size differently from standard infantry. That might not be a bad idea in this case. It'd help them hold in combat a little longer at least.

Polonius wrote:



How to fix against fists? Well, you can increase their durability over all. Higher Tougness, immune to ID, an invulernable save, or even some complicated special rule. Call it Too Stupid to Die: Ogryns are ferioucious hand to hand opponents that tower over most enemies, and weapons designed to destroy man sized targets seldom work properly. Any non-vehicle unit fighting against Ogryn gain no benefit from Powerfists, powerclaws, thunderhammers, etc.

That is an awesome name for their proposed special rule!

I hope GW steals that one from this thread, if nothing else!

Not wanting to start ANOTHER IG rumor thread now that we have this one as well as the fanboi wetdream thread. Someone will scream threadromancy, but eh well.

Does anyone have any updates on IG? Still looking like spring?

Ogryn Squad 170 points (10 models, includes one Bone'ed)

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W1 A1 Ld8 Save 3+

One model gets flamer, another gets missile launcher for free.
Special rules: ATSKNF, combat squads.

fixed