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Ratbarf wrote:"Course, that'd be overkill, but it'd be nice if they did that in such a way that it'd cut down on IG kill points."

Huh, I always figured they would simply make the entire platoon worth one kill point or half the platoon or something similar.

As for the AC, the thing I really want to see is a "Patton" -esque special character that had its own tank and allowed Russ Squadrons as troops with attached chimeras for the mechanised infantry....

But Patton was a colossal donkey-cave!

And Creed is part Patton part Churchill according to GW devs.

BrookM wrote:
And Creed is part Patton part Churchill according to GW devs.

The Churchill part being the bald and the cigar I 'spose.

erm has anyone got any updates on the banter about the "great coat" plastic gaurd mentioned on page 1 ???(would make my slowly assembling skitari easier )

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yay. IG are getting something sooner than later.

22 Tanks? That's quite a few compared to the 5 we've got now:
- Chimera
- Hellhound
- Basilisk
- Leman Russ
- Demolisher

Return the OOP Classic models, and we're up to 7:
+ Griffon
+ Exterminator

15 to go, so we dig into FW!
+ Vanquisher
+ Conquerer
+ Executioner
+ Annihilator
+ Bombard
+ Destroyer
+ Thunderer
+ Atlas ARV

+Salamander
+Medusa
+Hydra
+Manticore
+Trojan

+Centaur

Hmm... FW can fill the gap without requiring any superheavies. That's very convenient. Let's just hope we don't have the old nonsense of charging more for things like Conqueror compared to standard Russes.

Well, I suspect that we won't see a lot of the (imho anyways) unuseful ones like the trojan or atlas.

I'm guessing that the Salamander Scout and Salamander Command vehicles will be there, because that'd be fairly easy to do, especially in plastic (just swap out the autocannon for a H. Bolter or H. Flamer and tada! insta new tank!)

Hydra and manticore are possibilities for sure. I'll bet that the laser destroyer will be in there as well. Probably one or two new variants just because they can. But they'd have to change the rules for the manticore....minimum 36" range doesn't really work well in most normal games.

I don't know if including the rules for the bombard and medusa would be wise, but then again, it IS GW we're talking about. Instead, I'm probably going to guess at a new variant of the Basilisk, only because it would fill in a new arty piece and allow the exclusion of the bombard and medusa to keep it in the hands of us FW addicts.

I think we could easily see all the Salamander variants and griffon or medusa in one box.

I think it'd be easy for GW to do many of the LR variants in one box, the turret weapons the only difference.

I think to make 22 tanks in the book borders on ridiculous, the book would be filled with massive redundancy, i.e. Demolisher and Thunderer the latter has the same main weapon just no sponsons.

To fill out 22 options I'm guessing we'll see a new hull pattern something non-chimera and non-leman russ. I don't think we'll necessarily get a centaur with the general sort of overlap between it with the salamander, unless the salamander is scaled down. An actual tankette would be cool.

"part Churchill"

Which means he has shitastic tanks, trusts in a guy who names his dogs hitler and rommel, (who he then swears to kill) and doesn't kick nearly as much ass...

PS: Come to think of it a Rommel -esque character would also kill my wallet and be awwsome for great coat guard. Though the one thing I really want is some form of Air Cav!!!

aka_mythos wrote:I think to make 22 tanks in the book borders on ridiculous, the book would be filled with massive redundancy, i.e. Demolisher and Thunderer the latter has the same main weapon just no sponsons.

To fill out 22 options I'm guessing we'll see a new hull pattern something non-chimera and non-leman russ. I don't think we'll necessarily get a centaur with the general sort of overlap between it with the salamander, unless the salamander is scaled down. An actual tankette would be cool.

Borders on the ridiculous? I'd say it's fully ridiculous. The only other way I might take it is if the staff member meant that it'd allow a list in which you could take up to 22 tanks. I can't even say that I'd love to see that many tank options in the Codex. Seriously. That'd wind up being a waste of space.

22 tanks? Yeah, I'm just not seeing it.

BYE

I say borders on ridiculous because I'm not going to be surprised to find the "22" counts each chimera turret weapon variant as a separate "tank". I just mean its unclear how someones coming to that count.

Also to the part of the discussion on special character tank commander, I think it'd be cool to see, but there would be almost an insistence of it being different from "Chronus" so it'd be interesting to see what approach they'd take for an IG one.

The different approach to this would most likely be the course of not getting one at all. Instead we might just get "revived" characters such as Chenkov, Al Rahem and Nork Deddog.

Don't forget Stumper Muckstart.

BYE

I think if the IG codex is anything like the SM codex we'll see an interesting assortment of characters. I can't see GW doing any characters who's army isn't really supported: mordian, tallarn etc. That can always change if they re-release the old minis or do new ones. A tank commander seems likely, so does a stormtrooper/droptroop captain. We'll probably have Creed, Yarick, Gaunt, Schaeffer... I think Nork, Stumper would be a way to keep the Ratlings alive (if rumors are true ratlings as a squad choice are bye bye), Solar Macharius.

In the current background is Yarrick still alive?

It would be nice to have Ogryn Bodyguard, assuming GW fixes them to make them playable for their points.

"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."

Alpharius wrote:In the current background is Yarrick still alive?

Yes. Alive and on crusade, huntin' the elusive Ghaz-Thrakka.

I think 22 tanks sounds realistic. Saying as the new Space Marine Codex is over 100 pages and they are getting some new models, ie Drop Pod and Scout Speeder, the IG could very well get a new tank. I bet out of the 22 variants most will just be turret differences which could easily be packaged on one sprue. The chimera alone has twin linked heavy bolter, auto cannon, multi laser, and a heavy flamer. That is 4 "different" tanks in one model. I dont know why they have not done this before as the auto cannon and heavy bolter are already in the IG arsenal. Plus the IG could use more twin-link weapons, they are useless in close combat and need to be more viable in shooting.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It would be nice to have Ogryn Bodyguard, assuming GW fixes them to make them playable for their points.

"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."

I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?

Alpharius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:It would be nice to have Ogryn Bodyguard, assuming GW fixes them to make them playable for their points.

"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."

I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?

By throwing their cost down.

JohnHwangDD wrote:"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."

LOL. That quote made my day, John. Thanks!

BrookM wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:It would be nice to have Ogryn Bodyguard, assuming GW fixes them to make them playable for their points.

"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."

I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?

By throwing their cost down.

And, as an added bonus, that means we can buy more models. We get Ogryn as a viable counter-assault unit, and they get more cash. It just seems crazy that GW hasn't done this already. Unless the models really suck.

I think anything with 2+ wounds should have T5 too.
That or they should get rid of the instant death rule entirely. I've always hated that rule.

Ogryn got updated and slightly less ugly models when Apocalypse was released, not too shabby. But personally I feel that they could go down a notch in price, allowing us to field more and make them more effective instead of husbanding them until the right moment "happens" to arrive. Three wounds per model count for when they are in low numbers.

I think IG more than alot of armies require a cost down or power up. The thing is whatever power up that happens has to make sense as far as distinguishable differences in training over other armies. A cost down I'd fear would push them into being too much of an army of the nameless dying masses. I mean that is a tactic of the IG and all but there is some point where you want them to stand a chance in ways other than body count. There is also a risk of going to far in the other direction. Knowing GW they'll probably end up going too far in one of those two directions. Personally I think that the number of models in an average IG army is about right and that its more a matter of balancing what they can accomplish.

Ogryn are an example of that, what they can accomplish is not in proportion to their cost as you can accomplish almost as much with a fewer number of points of guardsmen. Techpriests and Sanctioned Psykers are another slew of models that are rarely worth their points.

Stormtroopers will probably get a big push with their new models.

Alpharius wrote:I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?

There isn't one. All solutions to the 'Ogryn Problem' are bad. Some are less bad, but they're all bad. The first point is, what is the 'Ogryn Problem'. You have to define that before you can even attempt to look at the pathetic solutions. The Ogryn problem is twofold:

1. Ogryn can't do anything that other units cannot do better, cheaper, or both.
2. Their durability is a myth.

Both these things are tied together. Ogryn don't cause enough damage to be worthwhile, and part of the reason they don't cause much damage is that they die too quickly.

There are three ways that I've looked at into making Ogryn work:

1. Make them immune to Instant Death.
2. Give them a FNP save.
3. Make them Toughness 5.

Option 1 doesn't make any sense. Why would they be immune to ID when thigns like Oblits aren't? Option 2 doesn't actually help, as the chief weakness of Ogryn is that they get taken out too quickly by S8 power fists in HTH. Now, this has been mitigated partially in 5th Ed as every Power Fist has lost an attack, so your typical Marine Sergeant will kill 2-3 Ogryn a turn, rather than 3-4, so it's better, but still bad. Option 3 is a bad option because Toughness 5 makes immune to instant death against things that should be killing them straight away - like Lascannons.

The only one out of those three you can go with is the 3rd option. It's a bad option, but it is better than the other two. At Toughness 5 they will survive in HTH against power fists (and the like), and with their increased durability they might be able to cause more damage.

I don't like this 'solution', but given the alternatives.

'Ok, why not just make them cheaper then?' I hear some of you say. 'If there weren't so many points invested in them, then losing them quickly wouldn't be such a problem - you can just bring more!'

This doesn't work. We have to look at this from a realistic standpoint. Most people are going to own 10 Ogryn. Tops. They are very expensive from a $$$ perspective, and the idea of a 'horde' of Ogryn isn't ever going to happen. Moreoever, only 6 fit inside a Chimera, so they need to work in squads of 10 and squads of 6. Reducing their cost won't make them work in squads of 6. Only Toughness 5 will do that.

BYE

I only vaguely recall Ogryn from back when I picked up guard as an Army and was exploring "options" with list building and unit mixes. Aren't Ogryn sold only in single model metal blisters at a cost of something like $11.00 apiece? They're a giant hunk of metal.

But yeah, no power weapons, no armor, T4 and vulnerable to instant death, expensive model and hard to field effectively pretty much kills off Ogryn.

How about an Ogryn with T4(5) like SM bikers? Don't know how that'd work out but its the closest thing to being in between the positives and negative you (HBMC) want.

With the fact that their models are newer they'll probably get a bit of nudge in their performance capability.

H.B.M.C. wrote:'Ok, why not just make them cheaper then?' I hear some of you say. 'If there weren't so many points invested in them, then losing them quickly wouldn't be such a problem - you can just bring more!'

This doesn't work. We have to look at this from a realistic standpoint. Most people are going to own 10 Ogryn. Tops. They are very expensive from a $$$ perspective, and the idea of a 'horde' of Ogryn isn't ever going to happen. Moreoever, only 6 fit inside a Chimera, so they need to work in squads of 10 and squads of 6. Reducing their cost won't make them work in squads of 6. Only Toughness 5 will do that.

BYE

The trick isn't in getting people to put more ogryns onto the field, but in getting them to pay less points for the ogryns they do put out. If they could deploy their 10 strong unit for 1/3 less than the points they currently cost, they're a lot closer to being viable. Powerfists will still mess them up but GW has made an effort to reduce the number of powerfists out there... it probably won't work, but everything that increases the likelihood of a unit avoiding a powerfist is a step towards getting more ogryns in the game.


Another option is to make Ogryns immune to instant death when in melee. Call it battle rage or something...

I'm still waiting on decent set of rules so I'll have a good excuse to get my Catachans out again. Hopefully, this time they'll make it viable.

aka_mythos wrote:How about an Ogryn with T4(5) like SM bikers? Don't know how that'd work out but its the closest thing to being in between the positives and negative you (HBMC) want.

But then they still drop to PFs. A powerfist still makes a 3W model go *pop* if it's T4(5). The problem with Ogryn is that they get shredded in CC because PFs are so ubiquitous. If only we had a way to say that they couldn't be insta-killed in CC but could be killed by ranged. Unfortunately, even GW's "fluff gymnastics," as Abby said, would have a hard time explaining why we only apply ID to Ogryn half the time.

"They get so excited in when the fight comes to fisticuffs that power fists are no longer able to crush their skulls with impunity." - GW

sebster wrote:If they could deploy their 10 strong unit for 1/3 less than the points they currently cost, they're a lot closer to being viable.

Viable at what?

They're not tough enough to withstand anything attacking them and they die too quickly to cause any real damage.

So, I ask again, viable at what?

There are cheaper units to act as tarpits and cheaper units that can cause lots of damage.

BYE