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One thing I will say about getting multiples of the same 'Mech is that, unlike Citadel plastic kits, there aren't a lot of options when it comes to making IWM 'Mechs. There are two different Archer models, and the only real choice you have in their construction is how they are waving their arms around. The legs and torsos are set. Same applies the Warhammer, but there are at least 3 different versions of that. It also makes them difficult to tell them apart unless you go and paint each one a different colour.

Plus with several thousand 'Mech variants out there, to me it makes little sense to pick only a few and just take loads and loads of them.

Also, palaeomerus, when you say 3025 Warhammer, keep in mind that even 3025 there were still 4 different variants of the machine, so don't think that they have to all be the same.

I didn't say "3025 Warhammer".

I said "" I'm just gonna field them as plain old 3025 non-variant warhammers anyway. " Non-variant means non variant, as in 2 PPCs, 2 medium lasers, 2 small lasers, 2 MG's, and an SRM 6.

I rather like the idea of lances containing similar mechs especially when those mechs are all rounders. How many different mech models there are out there doesn't really enter into it much for me. I'm thinking about the old box set days before the Star League Data Core tech readout and the 3050 readout happened.

I originally played the game out of a box set with identical (four of each) paper counter mechs that you folded and stufferd into plastic clips. I often use note cards and counters for heat and speed and such when playing table top or board games anyway. Telling different models of the same type of mech apart really isn't a big deal.

The Archers I plan to get are the "plain old" version of the (reseen) archers. The 6W variant just looks fugly to me. Not that I wouldn't consider using the original "Destroid Spartan" version if I could find three of them. I'd kind of like the missle bays closed so I may need to get out the green stuff or even the brown stuff.

I'd use the Tomahawk version of the Warhammer too but I already bought the four I have now and I don't know of where to get any of the old ones without paying the out of print nostalgia collector's item tax.

The 2 Warhammer 8K figures (the one with the streak SRM 4 and the heavy PPC's) comes with fixed legs and waist and have a standing pose.

Both the 4L/9S "combo kit" and the plain old vanilla unseen "warhammer" version I bought do not. You have to fix the seperate legs into the waist and then put the feet into a "shoed" base. It's a bit fiddly but I used folded paper as awedge and rubber bands to get them set in a useful position. The pose looks a bit like running but its not a great pose. It'll do I suppose.

I actually like the look of the new Thunderbolt. I wish I could find some reasonably priced "Soltec Roundfacer" Griffins and "Soltec Blockhead" Wolverines though. Those were among my favorites.

Yeah I've been trying to figure out what mechs to get a warhammer sounds good any suggustens?

Depends what era you play. Many 'Mechs are not available in earlier part of the timeline.

Anything from the 3025 era is good though, because that stuff is still around through Battletech.

The Inner Sphere split is about 25-35-20-10. That is to say, in a force of 100 'Mechs, 25 will be light, 35 will be medium, 20 will be heavy and only 10 will be assault 'Mechs. That is an old standard of how to build a relatively canon weight force. Obviously, some individual units are different (such as the Davion Assault Guards), but it is hard to go wrong with that breakdown.

What's breakdown for Clan units? Is it pretty similar to Inner Sphere units of 100 mechs or are they organized differently at that level as well?

palaeomerus wrote:I said "" I'm just gonna field them as plain old 3025 non-variant warhammers anyway. " Non-variant means non variant, as in 2 PPCs, 2 medium lasers, 2 small lasers, 2 MG's, and an SRM 6.

Any particular reason?

palaeomerus wrote:I rather like the idea of lances containing similar mechs especially when those mechs are all rounders.

Then play Draconis Combine. They're known for doing that - whole companies of the same 'Mech. They do use different variants though.

palaeomerus wrote:How many different mech models there are out there doesn't really enter into it much for me.

I'm looking at it from a practicality standpoint. You go out and buy a Lance of Archers. They all look the same. You then take only one variant. So you've got four 'Mechs that visually look the same, who are all armed in exactly the same way. How do you keep track of which is which during the game aside from either painting them all different colours, or remembering the way you stuck the arms on ("The one with his right arm in the air is the commander, the one with his left arm in the air is the 2IC, the one with both arms in the air is waving them like he just don't care!")

palaeomerus wrote:I'm thinking about the old box set days before the Star League Data Core tech readout and the 3050 readout happened.

Yup. And there were 4 different variants of the Warhammer before that happened. It's not like there was one Warhammer and one Warhammer only and then the Data Core happened and suddenly there were dozens. Some 'Mechs had only one or two variants (Atlas had one I believe, Orion maybe had two) where as some had heaps (Wolverine, Griffon, Warhammer, Marauder, etc.). All of them are pre-Data Core.

palaeomerus wrote:Not that I wouldn't consider using the original "Destroid Spartan" version if I could find three of them.

I can't imagine you'll be waiting too long for that. Iron Wind Metals probably has doing a set of the old original 'Mechs as their first priority now. Expect to see new Unseen Warhammers, Marauders and Archers within the next few months (I hope).

palaeomerus wrote:I'd kind of like the missle bays closed so I may need to get out the green stuff or even the brown stuff.

The model has doors for the missile Launchers that I'm sure could allow you to glue them in the closed position.

palaeomerus wrote:I'd use the Tomahawk version of the Warhammer too but I already bought the four I have now and I don't know of where to get any of the old ones without paying the out of print nostalgia collector's item tax.

As I said, don't worry about it. Unseen minis will be back soon.

palaeomerus wrote:The 2 Warhammer 8K figures (the one with the streak SRM 4 and the heavy PPC's) comes with fixed legs and waist and have a standing pose.

Which is probably due to all the complaints about the other two, which are a nightmare to get together. Who ever thought that having hips, separte legs, but feet moulded to a pseudo-hex base was a good idea needs to be shot.

palaeomerus wrote:I actually like the look of the new Thunderbolt. I wish I could find some reasonably priced "Soltec Roundfacer" Griffins and "Soltec Blockhead" Wolverines though. Those were among my favorites.

New Thunderbolt is a huge improvement over the extra-fugly original one. As for the Griffon and the Wolverine, you'll have 'em soon once IWM makes new ones.


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Hordini wrote:What's breakdown for Clan units? Is it pretty similar to Inner Sphere units of 100 mechs or are they organized differently at that level as well?

Very differently:

Inner Sphere:

1 'Mech = 1 'Mech
4 'Mechs = 1 Lance
3 Lances = 1 Company = 12 'Mechs
3 Companies = 1 Battalion = 40 'Mechs (incl. 1 Command Lance)
3 Battalions = 1 Regiment = 124+/- 'Mechs (incl. overall Command Lance, though that can sometimes be a Command Company)

Clan:

1 Point = 1 'Mech (usually - we'll ignore vehicles, infantry and aerospace for this)
5 Points = 1 Star = 5 'Mechs
2 Stars = 1 Binary = 10 'Mechs
3 Stars = 1 Trinary = 15 'Mechs
3-5 Binaries or Trinaries = 1 Cluster = Between 35 'Mechs and 80 'Mechs (incl. Command Star)
3-5 Clusters = 1 Galaxy = Between 110 'Mechs and 405 'Mechs (although it's rare to have a Galaxy that is all 'Mechs)

WHM-6R but I like the clan version alot, mostly infacte because of pulse lasers. I love pulse laser.

The Warhammer IIC is an Clan Assault 'Mech. The regular Warhammer is an Inner Sphere Heavy 'Mech - there is no contest.

Well thats kind of ofbius(?) Clan beats inner sphere every time.

Thanks for the Clan organization info, H.B.M.C., but I was also wondering if there's a normal weight distribution percentage for Clan mech units, like the Inner Sphere's 25-35-20-10 ratio. 25 Light Mechs, 35 Mediums, 20 Heavies, and 10 Assaults. Would the ratio be the same in Clan units?

Actually the Inner Sphere gets more and more exclusive and obnoxiously flawed yet still edge blunting stuff as time goes on. And they also tend to get slightly inferior versions of the formerly exclusive clan stuff including battle armor and targetting computers..

Eventually Word of Blake becomes the big bad guy and they operate their mechs in units of SIX and some of their pilots are cyborgs. They manage to pretty much burn down the whole freaking soap opera and leave things at a second sucession war level only with more surviving tech.

Then "Dark Age" happens and I have no idea what that's about except apparently interstellar communication via HPG just ends, Terra becomes the capitol of a Republic made up of most of those worlds close enough to a Successor state border to fight over, most of the clans just leave, and the Free World's league decides to get back together and be a faction again.

Hordini wrote:Thanks for the Clan organization info, H.B.M.C., but I was also wondering if there's a normal weight distribution percentage for Clan mech units, like the Inner Sphere's 25-35-20-10 ratio. 25 Light Mechs, 35 Mediums, 20 Heavies, and 10 Assaults. Would the ratio be the same in Clan units?

We haven't gotten anything quite as reliable for the Clans, and it can vary wildly between Clans. The Coyotes are known for VERY heavy units, while the Ice Hellions wouldn't touch most assault 'Mechs even if their life depended on it.

Also the clans typically have a strong cultural division between their expeditonary fighters (trueborn mech pilots, elementals, and aerospace pilots + expendable auxilliary units made up of freebirths, dishonored, washouts, old guys) who use the expensive omnimechs and omnifighters, and their garrisoners and reservists ( mostly freebirths because dishonored and old trueborns supposedly deserve better) who use mostly plain mechs and vehicles and serve as the non-armored infantry.

So there might be differing philosophies about heavy versus light even within a single clan.

Generally, Clans field more heavy mechs than anything else. Granted, this can vary between clans, but it's a good standard.

The Clans leave in the Dark Age era? Oo; How so?

We don't know anything about the Clans in the Dark Age era other than:

1. The Ghost Bear Dominion is now the Rassalhague Dominion.
2. Clan Wolf are now the Steel Wolves.
3. Clan Diamond Shark is once again Clan Sea Wolf.
3. The Jade Falcons are still kickin' around.

And... yeah? There's a whole 'War of Reaving' that takes place around the Jihad, but we have no details about what actually happened, only that the Clan homeworlds went 'dark' and no one's heard from them in a while.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We don't know anything about the Clans in the Dark Age era other than:

1. The Ghost Bear Dominion is now the Rassalhague Dominion.
2. Clan Wolf are now the Steel Wolves.
3. Clan Diamond Shark is once again Clan Sea Wolf.
3. The Jade Falcons are still kickin' around.

And... yeah? There's a whole 'War of Reaving' that takes place around the Jihad, but we have no details about what actually happened, only that the Clan homeworlds went 'dark' and no one's heard from them in a while.

A couple corrections there...

The Rasalhague Dominion is a combination of the Clan Ghost Bear and the Free Rasalhague Republic. It is the only nation to have Clanners and Inner Sphere folk living peaceably side by side.

Clan Wolf is the same. The Steel Wolves were an off shoot faction that eventually became 2 mercenary groups, the Wolf Hunters (led by Anastasia Kerensky) and another group I don't remember the neame of.

The Diamond Sharks are again Clan Sea FOX.

Mattlov wrote:

Hordini wrote:Thanks for the Clan organization info, H.B.M.C., but I was also wondering if there's a normal weight distribution percentage for Clan mech units, like the Inner Sphere's 25-35-20-10 ratio. 25 Light Mechs, 35 Mediums, 20 Heavies, and 10 Assaults. Would the ratio be the same in Clan units?

We haven't gotten anything quite as reliable for the Clans, and it can vary wildly between Clans. The Coyotes are known for VERY heavy units, while the Ice Hellions wouldn't touch most assault 'Mechs even if their life depended on it.

The clans tend to have a bigger concentration in the medium and heavy weight classes, a general breakdown I'd say being similar to 10/40/30/10. Several clans have preferences that change this ratio, such as the Coyotes being more into assault class, while the Ice Hellions prefer lights. Otherwise most clans seem to stick primarily to the heavy-medium/light-heavy line.

By the way, though I stuck to it for the sake of comparison, 25/35/20/10 is 90, not 100.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We don't know anything about the Clans in the Dark Age era other than:

1. The Ghost Bear Dominion is now the Rassalhague Dominion.
2. Clan Wolf are now the Steel Wolves.
3. Clan Diamond Shark is once again Clan Sea Wolf.
3. The Jade Falcons are still kickin' around.

And... yeah? There's a whole 'War of Reaving' that takes place around the Jihad, but we have no details about what actually happened, only that the Clan homeworlds went 'dark' and no one's heard from them in a while.

Steel Wolves... that sucks... a lot.
And poor Ghost Bears! :p

Homeworlds? The initial planets they came from? How much contact did the Clans have with those?
And how strong/developped/important were they before this 'War of Reaving' nonsense?

THe Homeworlds are the orginal 5 Pentagon Worlds and the attneding 15 or so planets settled by the Clans after the Exodus and ensuing Exodus Civil War in the late 2700's. Until the Clan Invasion of 3050 the Clans obviously talked to each other quite a bit. It wasn't until the Jihad and the War of Reaving (starting in 3067) that contact diminished between the Invading Clans and the Home Clans.

The Clans were a very important part of the story line, one of the primary focal points since their introduction in 3052. Since then it was the primary goal of most of the Inner Sphere powers to stop them and force them out of Inner Sphere space.

As to how powerful they were, here is a comparison:

In 300 years of the Succession Wars only the most recent (the 4th Succession War) saw any real change from the beginning. It saw significant damage to the Capellan Confederation, which lost more than 100 worlds.

So 300 years saw about 150 planets actually change hands.

FOUR Clans (out of 18) took more than 200 Inner Sphere worlds from three serpate nations in less than 2 years. WHen they attacked, they would literally send 15 to 20 'Mechs with a few squads of Elemental Battle Armor against entire Inner Sphere REGIMENTS.

And win. With almost no losses.

The Clans were THAT badass when they showed up.

In the following years, the Inner Sphere closed the technological gap a bit and losses became less extreme, but the Clans still have better equipment and better warriors.

The Dark Age also has clan Nova Cat who are ruling a chunk of the Draconis Combine as vassals to the Coordinator and their split off group the Spirit Cats who are out helping folks, and looking for some world their Kahn saw in a vision.

And there is a Clan protectorate as well that looks like an ad hoc nation where clanners can live and say "Quiaff without getting beat up in alleys for it.

Smoke Jaguar is thought to have been utterly destroyed after Operation Bulldog.

But there are what...16 clans remaining at the end of the Jihad storyline(Wolverine was destroyed, Widowmaker, Burrock, and Mongoose were absorbed) ?

Dark age only accounts for five of them. (Jade Falcons, Wolf, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, and Sea Fox) Of those the Jade Falcons are invading to take advantage of the HPG network going down, and the Sea Fox(formerly Diamond Shark) clan are basically are flying around in their giant cargo flotillas selling/trading stuff door to door at the planets they pass and moving freight for customers.

During the 3050 invasion BTW the clans were greatly aided by their Warships, which were rare in the inner sphere, and their omnifighters. Most of their conquests were in the Draconis Combine, the Lyran half of the Federated Commonwealth, and the newly seceded Rasalhague republic.

Fun fact: Rasalhague is a real star system with a traditional Arabic name that means "the face of the snake charmer" just like the Batman villain's name "Ra's Al Gul" means "face of the undead cannibal monster" or as DC comics puts it "head of the demon". Rasalhague is not a made up Scandanavian name that is supposed to sound Swedish or Danish or Norwegian.

Algol means "the demon" and the star was thought to be sort of evil and to preside over bad things when it shines prominently in the night sky. People noticed that it "winked" at them (or dimmed) about everyt three days and that creeped them out so they made up stories about it.

I'm starting to see why so many people are negative about the Dark Age etc.

Currently are the 2 strongest Clans still Jade Falcon and Wolf? I believe they were when i first looked into the Battletech storyline many many many years ago.

Also got confirmation that my Battletech order is underway. So i hope to get it in the coming days.
Huzzaaah!

A lot of negativity towards Dark Age stems from how it was introduced.

BattleTech has thrived on the fact that it's a living, breathing universe where things change and time passes. Unlike 40K, where the doomsday clock is always set at one minute to M.42 and nothing ever changes, BattleTech has changed a lot since it's 3025 roots. The 'current' date in BTech is 3076, so that's 50 years of history that has been played out over the past 25. We've had time to see things develop, characters be introduced, have their stories, and die, factions rise and fall, and major changes to the universe.

Dark Age didn't do that. Dark Age just sprung up out of no where and was forced upon players. One minute we had reached the end of the FedCom Civil War and were awaiting the next step in BTech and then BAM, it's 3130, all your fav characters are either dead or in old folks homes, all the factions are different, there was something called the Jihad, and you just have to accept it. Oh, and BTW, here's a Clicky game for you to play.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Dark Age storyline - I think it's quite an interesting place and I'm looking forward to the storyline getting there - but it's the method in which it was introduced that alienated so many long-time players. No explanations were given as to what happened, it was just 'this is what is - deal with it!'.

The side effect of all this was that it put a stigma on the Jihad, something that they had planned before FASA decided to shut its doors and Weisman took over. I think the Jihad is a great storyline, and I'm really enjoying it even though I know how it ends. I didn't always think that though. Being one of the many, many BTech fans alienated by Dark Age's introduction, the Jihad was simply a means to a bad end. Jihad automatically leads to Dark Age, Dark Age = bad, therefore Jihad also = bad. Of course, now that we've been given the time to go through this, and have spent the past few years moving from the 3067-3069 mark all the way through to 3076, it's far, far better than I imagined. We're getting to see things develop, rather than just having a massive paradigm shift with no explanation.

Now I don't mind factions changing - in my time the Fed Suns became the Fed Com and then went back to being the Fed Suns, we've seen ComStar split, the FWL disassemble itself, and an entire chunk of the IS get eaten by the Clans - so I don't really mind the 'Steel Wolves' or the change to Sea Fox, the Republic of the Sphere, or all the other Dark Age-y things. As long as we get the time to explore them and their origins, rather than just having everything dumped on us at once, it should be fine.

The question now is what will Catalyst do between the end of the Jihad and the HPG Blackout. The Jihad ends in 3081 (-ish). The Blackout doesn't happen for another 50 years. So what will they do?

Mattlov wrote:FOUR Clans (out of 18) took more than 200 Inner Sphere worlds from three serpate nations in less than 2 years. WHen they attacked, they would literally send 15 to 20 'Mechs with a few squads of Elemental Battle Armor against entire Inner Sphere REGIMENTS.

And win. With almost no losses.

The Clans were THAT badass when they showed up.

That is a bit of a simplification. Let me ask you this: Where did the Clans strike from and where were the bulk of the Inner Sphere's armies? The Clans concentrated force and chewed up and spit out a bunch of worlds that had only been garrisoned against Pidly Periphery Pirates (say that 3 times fast) with rear echelon type folks. Plus, I'm going to echo that the Clan's aerospace assets are what really won it for them.

robertsjf wrote:

Mattlov wrote:FOUR Clans (out of 18) took more than 200 Inner Sphere worlds from three serpate nations in less than 2 years. WHen they attacked, they would literally send 15 to 20 'Mechs with a few squads of Elemental Battle Armor against entire Inner Sphere REGIMENTS.

And win. With almost no losses.

The Clans were THAT badass when they showed up.

That is a bit of a simplification. Let me ask you this: Where did the Clans strike from and where were the bulk of the Inner Sphere's armies? The Clans concentrated force and chewed up and spit out a bunch of worlds that had only been garrisoned against Pidly Periphery Pirates (say that 3 times fast) with rear echelon type folks. Plus, I'm going to echo that the Clan's aerospace assets are what really won it for them.

True, but how often would you take on 5 times your force as the ATTACKER and walk away with a complete victory. Sheer weight of numbers has an advantage unless the opponent is that much better than you. Which the Clans were at the time.

The Clans did not have, nor have they ever had an advantage in Aerospace assets. While they had WarShips, they did not use them because the Inner Sphere didn't have any. In fighter combat the Inner Sphere could hold their own against the Clans because the Inner Sphere held the skill edge there.

Mattlov wrote:While they had WarShips, they did not use them because the Inner Sphere didn't have any.

uh, Turtle Bay?

robertsjf wrote:

Mattlov wrote:While they had WarShips, they did not use them because the Inner Sphere didn't have any.

uh, Turtle Bay?

That was a different reason. The Jags got pissed because the populace wouldn't stop rebelling. The WarShip did not fire on legitimate military targets, it just leveled a city. And that was the only time a WarShip saw combat outside of the death of ilKhan Showers.

Hmm quite interesting.
Though i think i'll focus on the early and the Clan Invasion era. More than enough fluff to explore there before i dip into later eras.

And the good news is Catalyst is about to reveal their new boxed sets - the 25th Anniversary box, which should come with new plastics of all the unseens, and the Clan box, which comes with 15 of the original 16 invasion-era Omni-Mechs.

Those two boxes combined with the standard Intro Box will give you enough 'Mechs to last a long, long time.

Was the clan advantage as described above (I.E. Outnumbered 5-1 when taking a planet) intended to in part represent the mobility advantage an attacker in orbit would have? I.E. the defender has 50 mechs but needs to spread them around several hot-spots, possibly on several continents, so it's not as big a deal for the 10 clan mechs to pick a single critical point to focus on.

I've also assumed that 'conquered' in the BT universe often just means that certain chokepoints are controlled: the capitol, any startports, and similar. There's still going to be a lot of guerilla fighting if the natives are capable.