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Either care to reply including the provided background to have a common base for all participants to discuss, or just don't post.

Are you a Moderator?

All primarchs/space marines are creations of the Emperor.

Mine aren't. Fabius Bile made them.

Manchu wrote:Something like female SM doesn't fit.

Games Workshop staff disagree with you.

Here's a quote from when one of them talked about the subject on the B+C forums:

As far as i've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all.

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!

Now, why should I listen to you instead of a Games Workshop staff member?

1hadhq wrote:Back to the Question N° 1: Reason to create FemSm

There really doesn't seem to be any good (fluffy) reason for creating them.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Either care to reply including the provided background to have a common base for all participants to discuss, or just don't post.

Are you a Moderator?

Youre not answering if i am not a MOD?

Such fine discussion tactic deserves:

My point was, in case you missed the subtext, to kindly refrain from telling me which parts of the discussion I must participate in. This is a wide topic with many facets, not all of which interest me. I will reply to the parts I wish to, and I will not reply to the parts I don't wish to.

After all, you only responded to about a tenth of my last post directed at you, so why yet another double standard?

Space Marines were created after the Primarchs disappeared. The Emperor used the genetic records of the Primarchs to accomplish this. Perhaps one or both of the two unknown Primarchs were female? Or, to work off of Dr Thunder's earlier suggestion that Chaos be involved, perhaps a group of SM were changed into ladies by Slaanesh. Has the potential to be a hilarious webstrip.

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Back to the Question N° 1: Reason to create FemSm

There really doesn't seem to be any good (fluffy) reason for creating them.

Exactly.

The emperor was ok with his work, so why should we criticise him?



Can't see the need for change in space marine recrutement. Without any additional benefits, no-one would expend valuable resources
(females) in a ressource-hungry crusade.

Doctor Thunder wrote:My point was, in case you missed the subtext, to kindly refrain from telling me which parts of the discussion I must participate in. This is a wide topic with many facets, not all of which interest me. I will reply to the parts I wish to, and I will not reply to the parts I don't wish to.

After all, you only responded to about a tenth of my last post directed at you, so why yet another double standard?

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Either care to reply including the provided background to have a common base for all participants to discuss, or just don't post.

Are you a Moderator?

All primarchs/space marines are creations of the Emperor.

Mine aren't. Fabius Bile made them.

Manchu wrote:Something like female SM doesn't fit.

Games Workshop staff disagree with you.

Here's a quote from when one of them talked about the subject on the B+C forums:

As far as i've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all.

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!

Now, why should I listen to you instead of a Games Workshop staff member?

Then why when asked questions the Games Workshop staff says things like Squats don't exist, and make comments about the outcome of the 13th Black Crusade? What about all those articles cataloguing the results of Medusa V, Armageddon, and EoT? Why dot hey mention things like Horus turning, if there is no background? Get your head around the fact GW doesn't take an official stance, because so doing would alienate players. You can quote those articles all your want, it doesn’t change the fact they are nothing more than a tool to get you to buy more models, just like standard bearer. You keep calling GW background cheap and beer and pretzels, but just because you think it is beer and pretzels doesn’t make it so. Just because an articles references taking it lightly doesn’t make it so, this is a universe with clear set guidelines, you just choose to trivialize all the evidence we provide with that ‘cat’ quote and dismiss our opinions as narrow-minded and wrong. So don’t get upset when we choose to trivialize your opinions and how cheap you consider this game.

Also, don't get mad at a member for trying to keep a thread OT and non-violent. You arn't a MOD either.

1hadhq wrote:The emperor was ok with his work, so why should we criticise him?

Lol, I wouldn't dream of it! That's what we had Horus for. Can you imagine: "I'm so sick of dad! He's self-righteous and arrogant. I should be the one to rule the galaxy. He didn't even make any girl marines! Seriously, how am I ever going to meet someone?" And thus the Heresy was born.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
You can quote those articles all your want, it doesn’t change the fact they are nothing more than a tool to get you to buy more models

You can ignore GW if you want, of course. A lot of people don't think that referees should be listened to either. The burden on you, of course is this: Why should I listen to you instead of Games Workshop?

You keep calling GW background cheap and beer and pretzels, but just because you think it is beer and pretzels doesn’t make it so.

You're right. It is not a beer and pretzels game just because I think it is. What makes it a beer and pretzels game is because Games Workshop says it is a beer and pretzels game. I just happen to agree with them. You are welcome to pretend that it isn't, but I won't.

this is a universe with clear set guidelines

GW disagrees with you.

You just choose to trivialize all the evidence we provide with that ‘cat’ quote and dismiss our opinions as narrow-minded and wrong.

Actually, if you re-read the thread, I've gone out of my way to state that you are under no obligation to agree with me or GW. You are allowed to ignore GW and pretend the game has canon. If that is fun for you have at it. You have every right to your opinion, but when you and GW disagree, I'm going to go with GW every time.

In my opinion, referancing text is far better than anything from the mouths or keyboards of your local GW employees. I once had a blackshirt in the West Edmonton GW try to sell me a space wolves battle force to get my Black Templars army going quickly. I pointed out that there was a "Space Marine Battleforce" right next to it. (This was before the BT Boxed set)

He said that's meant only for Ultramarines players. I told him he was meant to work at a McDonalds. He stopped trying to give me 'pointers' after that.

Basically what I'm saying is that you're better off following the texts written by the GW Masterminds over on the Queen's rock than taking the word (or internet post) of any local GW Employee. Most of them know the gameplay, but not the fluff. If you find an official text from the GW Highlords that says Female Marines are possible, then it's so. If, however, you only find official texts saying that the traditional method of creating a Space Marine have ill-effects on Female candidates (As has been recorded by the Fluffmasters themselves), then so it is by GW.

Of course, nothing says that these Female Marines couldn't have been made in an alternative fashion. To the best of my knowledge though, the Fluffmasters in Jolly Ole' England have said that Female Marines are not possible by the conventional procedure. Something about the Geneseed revoking their genetic makeup on account of the XX Chromosome, the extra Organs also not functioning due to reasons of genetics, etc...

metallifan wrote:I pointed out that there was a "Space Marine Battleforce" right next to it. He said that's meant only for Ultramarines players. I told him he was meant to work at a McDonalds. He stopped trying to give me 'pointers' after that.

Well played, sir.

metallifan wrote:Of course, nothing says that these Female Marines couldn't have been made in an alternative fashion. To the best of my knowledge though, the Fluffmasters in Jolly Ole' England have said that Female Marines are not possible by the conventional procedure. Something about the Geneseed revoking their genetic makeup on account of the XX Chromosome, the extra Organs also not functioning due to reasons of genetics, etc...

Like I said, Slaanesh could have mutated some SM into ladies . . . for reasons best left to your imagination.

@Dr Thunder: Why not give us more detail on your Fabius Bile back story? Do your femarines have original geneseed? Or did Bile create all new stuff for them?

Finally, we know there are already female SM: Dark Angels.

The individual opinions of GW employees do not supersede the written text they have published that make up the game world.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
You can quote those articles all your want, it doesn’t change the fact they are nothing more than a tool to get you to buy more models

You can ignore GW if you want, of course. A lot of people don't think that referees should be listened to either. The burden on you, of course is this: Why should I listen to you instead of Games Workshop?

You keep calling GW background cheap and beer and pretzels, but just because you think it is beer and pretzels doesn’t make it so.

You're right. It is not a beer and pretzels game just because I think it is. What makes it a beer and pretzels game is because Games Workshop says it is a beer and pretzels game. I just happen to agree with them. You are welcome to pretend that it isn't, but I won't.

this is a universe with clear set guidelines

GW disagrees with you.

You just choose to trivialize all the evidence we provide with that ‘cat’ quote and dismiss our opinions as narrow-minded and wrong.

Actually, if you re-read the thread, I've gone out of my way to state that you are under no obligation to agree with me or GW. You are allowed to ignore GW and pretend the game has canon. If that is fun for you have at it. You have every right to your opinion, but when you and GW disagree, I'm going to go with GW every time.

Who are you to tell me that I am wrong for taking GW's standpoint, and then do the same thing. The point is, what anybody at GW says to you about femarines is pandering to you to sell you models, then they turn around and talk to me about the repercussions of the 13h Black Crusade on deployments on the Eastern Fringe, to sell me more books, in the end they make money. Am I the only one who realizes this? So what happens then is that GW PEOPLE will say anything to sell models, GW BOOKS contain the backstory, the GW PEOPLE will say whatever you want them to say even if they write the books because you will buy more models. I seriously doubt Jervis is sitting in his office sculpting boobs on his marines and Phil Kelly is building a loyalist Word Bearer strike force to fight alongside Rick Priestley's Dark Angels with Guilliman geneseed. You are not 'with-it' in any way shape or form, why don't you just concede the point? You evidence is nothing more than some guys patting you on the back for your conversions or an editorial designed to make people buy more than one box for a single troop choice.

metallifan wrote:In my opinion, referancing text is far better than anything from the mouths or keyboards of your local GW employees.

I've been quoting the higher ups, not redshirts, but still, you raise some good points about the old fluff banning conventional methods but not alternative methods.

@Dr Thunder: Why not give us more detail on your Fabius Bile back story? Do your femarines have original geneseed? Or did Bile create all new stuff for them?

Sorry, I might be mistaking your intentions, but this board is incredibly hostile, so I'd rather not give you guys any more opportunity to roast me then you already have.

Do your femarines have original geneseed?

Hopefully not, as the GW Fluffmasters have said this is not possible without the recipients dying or at best becoming horribly mutated from implantation. Though it's not hard to just dart your eyes and say "Uh... no... I always... Uh... said their geneseed was of a new genetic makeup! Yea!"

Sorry, I might be mistaking your intentions, but this board is incredibly hostile, so I'd rather not give you guys any more opportunity to roast me then you already have.

I don't see the board being hostile. A few members maybe, but you can't account for a whole board over the actions of a few. And even then those members I'm sure felt the same way. Some of us are actually interested in the background to your story though, and if it conflicts GW's fluff, are glad to help you tweak it.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Sorry, I might be mistaking your intentions, but this board is incredibly hostile, so I'd rather not give you guys any more opportunity to roast me then you already have.

I just want to get things back on track. There's too much baiting going on here and hardly any discussion of the actual topic.

So to summarize:

40k is a fictional universe
there is established background
that background has some holes
some of those holes are intentional
the reason for the holes is so you can make up your own stories

If you are made fun of because you make up your own stories, that would be unfair. But to be honest I think the hostility is coming out of everyone's matter-of-fact tone about a topic that has no true controversy at its heart. The simple fact is that there are no femarines outside of an individual's back stories. So let's skip the rest of that endless, thread-killing conversation.

Creating femarines does sound like something Fabius might try. Either he would have corrupted existing geneseed or attempted to genetically modify cloned material to be suitable to female biology. The results are probably unstable. Could be its own discrete type of Chaos unit, a la Noise Marines.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:You are not 'with-it' in any way shape or form, why don't you just concede the point?

You're asking me to take your opinion over that of Games Workshop's. Why should I do that?

You evidence is nothing more than some guys patting you on the back for your conversions or an editorial designed to make people buy more than one box for a single troop choice.

Marshal, you and I have talked about female space marines on many threads. I've quoted you articles from white dwarf, comments from the design team from the GW website and forums, and official statements from GW publishers.

Given our history, I find it very disingenuous of you to try and make it sound like I have not provided you any evidence.

If you do not consider GW to have any authority when it comes to the fiction they write, that is fine, but I do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Creating femarines does sound like something Fabius might try. Either he would have corrupted existing geneseed or attempted to genetically modify cloned material to be suitable to female biology. The results are probably unstable. Could be its own discrete type of Chaos unit, a la Noise Marines.

Okay, I'll take a chance on you guys, then.


The idea is that Fabius Bile wanted to make a chaos version of a genestealer. Something that could be seeded onto a target world, and interbreed with the local population for generations, then be unleashed when the world was attacked.

The black widows don't use geneseed. They were created by a fusion of technology and sorcery. The extra organs are present from birth, and lay dormant in them until activated by chemical and demonic treatment. Until then, they are externally indistinguishable from regular humans. The black widows themselves have no knowledge of their identity until the world they live on comes under attack, at which point their demonic nature is activated and they attack local authorities by the thousands, scavenging and stealing whatever gear they can find. Eventually they link up with the invading chaos forces, providing a large pool of reinforcements. When a chaos space marine falls, a black widow can be treated and prepped to don the suit of armor.

Bile's plan is to seed hundreds of thousands of worlds, and allow their descendants to grow in numbers with each generation, until they outnumber the untainted populations, overthrowing whole systems with barely a shot fired.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
The idea is that Fabius Bile wanted to make a chaos version of a genestealer. Something that could be seeded onto a target world, and interbreed with the local population for generations, then be unleashed when the world was attacked.

The black widows don't use geneseed. They were created by a fusion of technology and sorcery. The extra organs are present from birth, and lay dormant in them until activated by chemical and demonic treatment. The black widows themselves have no knowledge of their identity until the world they live on comes under attack, at which point their demonic nature is activated and they attack local authorities by the thousands, scavenging and stealing whatever gear they can find. Eventually they link up with the chaos forces, providing a large pool of reinforcements. When a chaos space marine falls, a black widow can be chemically treated and prepped to don the suit of armor.

Bile's plan is to seed hundreds of worlds, and allow their descendants to grow in numbers with each generation, until they outnumber the untainted populations, overthrowing whole systems with barely a shot fired.

Sound pretty cool actually. What exactly makes them femarines? They have the same zygotes?

Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

Manchu wrote:

Sound pretty cool actually. What exactly makes them femarines? They have the same zygotes?

They end up having the same extra organs and modifications as a male marine, they just use a different route to get there. I imagine they have less physical strength but greater speed then their male counterparts.

Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

I wanted to go for a damned from birth angle (particularly excruciating since they remember their old lives), but it might be fun to have the "seed" widows on a given world to be kidnapped and experimented on.

Doctor Thunder wrote:I kinda like the damned from birth angle (particularly excruciating since they remember their old lives), but it might be fun to have the "seed" widows on a given world to be kidnapped and experimented on.

That does sound pretty excruciating. Just to be clear, are you using them as "counts as" SM or CSM?

Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

How is it NOT Chaosy? It's twisting their DNA without giving them any option or chance to oppose it, and in such a way that they can't fight back without committing suicide. You ask me, that's pretty damn messed up in a twisted, evil Fabious Bile sort of way

It's certainly believeable at any rate, that Chao energy and a Daemonic Presence could take the place of the Geneseed. This is one of those "Plausible" cases, where yea, it would work. So they're only the same size as an average human until the energies are unleased, and then they hulk out? Certainly sounds painful. And perfectly Chaosy to me.

Manchu wrote:Just to be clear, are you using them as "counts as" SM or CSM?

Yup. If I were to write house rules for them, I'd make them S3 T4 I5, but most people in my area hate house rules, so I usually use the space marine codex with Inquisitional allies (since not all of the widows wear power armor, only those that have managed to acquire a suit)


Here's a pic of some (pre modification) using stolen gear:


And here's a pic of one that has been modified so she can wear a suit of power armor. (The curved chest plate is decorative, she doesn't actually need the room) She uses the rules for vulkan he-stan.

I like the idea of what is basically an SM army that has a powersuit shortage. Are those WE heads?

metallifan wrote:How is it NOT Chaosy? It's twisting their DNA without giving them any option or chance to oppose it, and in such a way that they can't fight back without committing suicide. You ask me, that's pretty damn messed up in a twisted, evil Fabious Bile sort of way

It's f'd up, no doubt. But the hallmark of Chaos is becoming corrupted not starting corrupted.

Manchu wrote:Are those WE heads?

Yup. Some widows fight in vain against their demonic nature, struggling against the overwhelming urge to kill their former family and people. As punishment, they are imprisoned in a dreadnaught body, stripped of their will, they are forced to witness slaughter for all eternity.

Most impressive. I can't decide if I like the paint or the conversion better.

Awesome idea. I don't regard the Black Widows as astartes though, but I really nice original idea. Do the widows only have daughters? Nice models too.

Nice pics!

Does it count as a dreadnought? Or perhaps a defiler?

Manchu wrote: Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

It's not needed, they're chaos because Bile made them that way and he's chaos, otherwise plague zombies are not chaos because they're not fallen, just victims of an infection. You don't have to be possessed to serve chaos. It sounds like Bile has created a new biological weapon using his knowledge of genetics and because these widows are biological timebombs, there is no warp taint to alert the inquisition. I'd think that there could be some problems if they had to undergo a genetic screening of some kind but no doubt there's a way around that too.

Does it count as a dreadnought?

Yup. If I were to make house rules for it, I would give it Armor 11, scout, and fleet.

cadbren wrote:Do the widows only have daughters?

Yes, which means that a planet infected with them will experience a population shift after a few generations that will be come more pronounced with each successive generation. If a particularly watchful member of the inquisition can detect the infestation soon enough, it can be ended by purging the female half of the population.

This is a second element to Bile's strategy. Even if not a single infestation grows to maturity, the repercussions of forcing the imperium to raze the female population on thousands of planets can become devastating to the war effort in a sector.

An infestation that does grow to maturity will be swift and sudden, as many of the widow's descendants will find themselves in positions of authority, and the small remaining natural population will be quickly overwhelmed by their former kin, leaving a planet with it's industry and military fully intact and now completely loyal to chaos.

So they're only the same size as an average human until the energies are unleased, and then they hulk out?

Yup. I imagine they kinda look like she-hulk, but without the green. An 8 foot tall amazon with the soul of a demon and a residue of humanity that torments her like shards of glass in her mind.


Occasionally a widow will fell a space marine terminator and claim the suit of armor as her own.

Methinks ye be needin' some Daemons that've manifested as giant Black Widow spiders to complete the Chaosness and overall theme (How cool would it be to model a giant spider impaling some poor PDF bugger with it's fangs?). Otherwise, beauty of a job, and quite frankly I'm suprised you don't have these up in a Gallery yet.