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metallifan wrote:Methinks ye be needin' some Daemons that've manifested as giant Black Widow spiders to complete the Chaosness and overall theme (How cool would it be to model a giant spider impaling some poor PDF bugger with it's fangs?).

That's a great idea. Consider it done.

cadbren wrote:

Manchu wrote: Also, these chicks aren't "fallen" in any conceivable sense given that they have no choice in what they are. Doesn't seem very Chaos-y in that respect. Maybe there could be some kind of daemonhost spin on the genetic engineering?

It's not needed, they're chaos because Bile made them that way and he's chaos, otherwise plague zombies are not chaos because they're not fallen, just victims of an infection. You don't have to be possessed to serve chaos.

A faulty argument: Plague Zombies are reanimated corpses. A corpse is merely a body, a thing. It has no will and so cannot be turned. Similarly, the bolters, armor, and vehicles that CSM use are indeed Chaos but, as objects, that identification does not depend on their having turned from humanity. The CSM themselves, however, are all fallen. A better example for your argument would have been demons. But even that is quite weak. Demons have no will, either. Volition, certainly, but the power of choice--to renounce their obedience to Chaos--is denied them.

Against the otherwise arresting backstory of the Black Widows, this is a minor problem. I imagine that many of the Widows do not live to see their latent powers manifest. Moreover, once they do there is likely a struggle. The genius of Bile (or maybe Dr Thunder) is most evident here: the struggle takes place in a mind that is not prepared. The host has always thought of herself as a normal person, fully dependent on the protection of the Empire and Ecclesiarchy. How can she resist? Trouble only arises when her mind and faith have been prepared somehow.

It would be very interesting to trace out the story of a latent Widow adopted into the Schola Progenium and eventually inducted into the Adpeta Sororitas.

Manchu wrote:

It would be very interesting to trace out the story of a latent Widow adopted into the Schola Progenium and eventually inducted into the Adpeta Sororitas.

That could make a really neat short story. I'd have to double check on the screening methods used by the ecclesiarchy. Since they abhor witchcraft in all it's forms, it's possible they do not employ psykers to check for spiritual purity, which would allow a sleeper widow to slip through.

Her training and faith would give her resistance a normal person would not have. It would be a fun story to explore. Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

Female marines make no sense since marine where made in the emperors image whitch is inarguable male, and the geneseed is made for male organ no female, and why would they be better shots there is no diference in acuracy marines are train to the highest standerd in acurasy the most acurat marine has bs5 telion, are telling me all woman have that acuracy bred into the i say not ( not to be sexist) but in the accuracy stand point male and female are the same. Finaly women tend not to have the blood lust men have marines have to be able to kill without a second though or any hesitation and not dwell long on it so they can kill the next dude, also it says in the fluff they just pic men.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Manchu wrote:

It would be very interesting to trace out the story of a latent Widow adopted into the Schola Progenium and eventually inducted into the Adpeta Sororitas.

That could make a really neat short story. I'd have to double check on the screening methods used by the ecclesiarchy. Since they abhor witchcraft in all it's forms, it's possible they do not employ psykers to check for spiritual purity, which would allow a sleeper widow to slip through.

Her training and faith would give her resistance a normal person would not have. It would be a fun story to explore. Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

Hmm sound like the Unfleshed from the ultramarine series.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Rape is impractical in power armor. And disgusting, and has no place 40K.

Sigh.



Index Astartes page 29:
"Fulgrim turned his legion loose on the uncontested areas of the planet, where billions of terrified humans cowered at the sight of the followers of chaos...the space marines themselves sought even greater excesses of carnage and carnality." (Emphasis mine)



car·nal'i·ty (kär-nāl'ĭ-tē) n.
car·nal (kär'nəl) adj.
car'nal·ly adv.

Engaging in sexual intercourse, the fulfilling sexual appetites: carnal desire.

[Middle English, from Old North French carnel, from Latin carnālis, from Latin carō, carn-, flesh; see sker-1 in Indo-European roots.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

That and lucius desire is because of slannesh she could easaly add a few parts into a marines system

Doctor Thunder wrote:Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

It would be an effing epic story. Some introductory sketches:

her mother was from theocracy of infected Shrine World
her father was member of Navis Nobilite
their marriage was part of an ancient pact between the Navy and the Ecclesiarchy
both parents killed in a Chaos boarding action (maybe Fabius involved--he recognizes and personally spares her)
fleet saved at the last minute but she is left an orphan
because she is the "wax seal" as it were between such powerful parties she is adopted by powerful people
she is put into schola progeniume
she makes friends there
becomes friends with future inquisitor (crush develops)
she becomes fanatically religious but has bad flashbacks of her parents death so she joins a non-militant order of Adepta Sororitas
after brief exposure to battle, her corruption partially awakens
through great faith and some of her training, she overcomes the awakening
but she's a much more grim person and decides to train with militant chamber
she goes into battle and tries to keep it together
gradually aware that something is deeply wrong with her
maybe she has to spend some time in the Repentia
meets up with school friend who is now a radical inquisitor and doesn't want to burn her immediately
she leaves sororitas on assignment with Inquisitor friend as part of his retinue
she eventually picks up the scent of the maruaders who killed her parents
ultimately confronts truth about self and has to fight fully-fledged Black Widows

multiple conflict develops:
(1) revenge motive is source of faith but potentially source of fall
(2) "who am I really?" (your point, can the damned be saved?)
(3) distaste for Inquisitor friend's flexibility toward psykers, etc but dependent upon him for protection
(4) balanced off against a potential romance with him

40K is a beer and pretzels game. You should never take it too seriously. Doing so would be like taking candyland seriously.

Sure, you can make a candyland tournament and increase the level of competition and even give out a big trophy, but it remains nothing more then a child's game. Nothing wrong with enjoying a kids game, but the minute it becomes so serious that you write up several paragraphs about how it's just not acceptable to use a monopoly car instead of the gingerbread man that comes in the box, because it breaks the candyland universe, it's really time to take a step back and chill out about a million percent.


.

Note: I'm answering the OP's original question, so I hope I'm not too far off the present conversation.

Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct. There are no women SM's, but if YOU dear reader wish to write about them or create your own personal back-story about them, go ahead. But to attempt to make the assertion that women SM's are not only possible (which in itself is kind of a stretch), but should be accepted into the GW fluff that is widely recognized as fact is pretty ridiculous.

IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR . . .

. . . read the whole thread before posting. We've covered all of this ground, found where the real controversies were, gotten past it, and come back on track with something interesting and non-confrontational.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:You are not 'with-it' in any way shape or form, why don't you just concede the point?

You're asking me to take your opinion over that of Games Workshop's. Why should I do that?

You evidence is nothing more than some guys patting you on the back for your conversions or an editorial designed to make people buy more than one box for a single troop choice.

Marshal, you and I have talked about female space marines on many threads. I've quoted you articles from white dwarf, comments from the design team from the GW website and forums, and official statements from GW publishers.

Given our history, I find it very disingenuous of you to try and make it sound like I have not provided you any evidence.

If you do not consider GW to have any authority when it comes to the fiction they write, that is fine, but I do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Creating femarines does sound like something Fabius might try. Either he would have corrupted existing geneseed or attempted to genetically modify cloned material to be suitable to female biology. The results are probably unstable. Could be its own discrete type of Chaos unit, a la Noise Marines.

Okay, I'll take a chance on you guys, then.


The idea is that Fabius Bile wanted to make a chaos version of a genestealer. Something that could be seeded onto a target world, and interbreed with the local population for generations, then be unleashed when the world was attacked.

The black widows don't use geneseed. They were created by a fusion of technology and sorcery. The extra organs are present from birth, and lay dormant in them until activated by chemical and demonic treatment. Until then, they are externally indistinguishable from regular humans. The black widows themselves have no knowledge of their identity until the world they live on comes under attack, at which point their demonic nature is activated and they attack local authorities by the thousands, scavenging and stealing whatever gear they can find. Eventually they link up with the invading chaos forces, providing a large pool of reinforcements. When a chaos space marine falls, a black widow can be treated and prepped to don the suit of armor.

Bile's plan is to seed hundreds of thousands of worlds, and allow their descendants to grow in numbers with each generation, until they outnumber the untainted populations, overthrowing whole systems with barely a shot fired.

To prove I am not an donkey-cave, I have always liked the fluff for these girls. It is tragic and scary at the same time, and in my mind completely plausible, because Chaos did it. I am not against weird 'impossible' occurrences of femarines, I am against loyalist chapters inducting them like it is normal. Silber's famarines do this well, if Silbers keeps what he was considering. SO does that make my point better? The Ultramarines may not include women, but a renegade chapter who has little love for approved practices invoking sorcery and science to make something that isn't normally acceptable.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Manchu wrote:

It would be very interesting to trace out the story of a latent Widow adopted into the Schola Progenium and eventually inducted into the Adpeta Sororitas.

That could make a really neat short story. I'd have to double check on the screening methods used by the ecclesiarchy. Since they abhor witchcraft in all it's forms, it's possible they do not employ psykers to check for spiritual purity, which would allow a sleeper widow to slip through.

Her training and faith would give her resistance a normal person would not have. It would be a fun story to explore. Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

I would love to know more about these black widow and i to make fluff for my disputed army they are the lost sons and i root you on in your escapade ftw.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:To prove I am not an donkey-cave, I have always liked the fluff for these girls. It is tragic and scary at the same time, and in my mind completely plausible, because Chaos did it. I am not against weird 'impossible' occurrences of femarines, I am against loyalist chapters inducting them like it is normal. Silber's famarines do this well, if Silbers keeps what he was considering. SO does that make my point better? The Ultramarines may not include women, but a renegade chapter who has little love for approved practices invoking sorcery and science to make something that isn't normally acceptable.

Even if this isn't the prevailing sentiment, I agree with it. Dr Thunder's approach is a hundred times more interesting than an all-female company of Ultrasmurves.

@kogwar: Start a thread on the Lost Sons and the people will come. Honestly, there ought to be a separate thread for Black Widow fluff by this point but I'll leave that up to Thunder.

augfubuoy wrote:Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct.

Case closed, you can all go home now. No Further discussion is warranted

Gwar! wrote:

augfubuoy wrote:Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct.

Case closed, you can all go home now. No Further discussion is warranted

Dammit, it's just like saying Candlejack. Oh f--

Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct

.

You're so just trying to get into his Si-

Case closed, you can all go home now. No Further discussion is warranted

...DAMN HE BEAT ME TO THE CALL!

Hey hey hey. I don't really care about being/not being in Gwar!'s signature, but I only read the first page of the thread, and he seemed to have the most logical argument on the first page, that's all OK?

yeesh...

Um, Doctor Thunder? I have to ask, what would make the WHOLE female population turn to chaos? And not just some/many?

Is it a gene that Fabius realeases? Or would there be die-hard emperor loving chicks fighting for the Emprah?

augfubuoy wrote:Hey hey hey. I don't really care about being/not being in Gwar!'s signature, but I only read the first page of the thread, and he seemed to have the most logical argument on the first page, that's all OK?

yeesh...

We love you anyway!

Doctor Thunder wrote:Her training and faith would give her resistance a normal person would not have. It would be a fun story to explore. Can you have faith in a god who hates you? Can The Emperor redeem a creature without a soul? Would she have the strength to take her own life before the beast completely overwlelmed her?

Maybe the duality would be so incompatible she wouldn't realize that she had become a traitor?

She could just go on killing "mutants and daemons" throughout her chapel.

Is she acting on her own free will? Or has she been possesed/twisted/corrupted?

Well, she's gone insane. She can't conceive of her being a traitor so she goes into a dreamlike state where she's fighting for the emperor.

BUT SHE WAKES UP IN THE FINAL CHAPTER, TO SEE WHAT SHE'S DONE.

Is this a book? Or did you make it up? It's very in depth if you have.

Anyway, what would INSANE in the mebmrane count as? Does that make you corrupted? Personally, while it does not excuse you're actions, I think not.

Manchu wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:To prove I am not an donkey-cave, I have always liked the fluff for these girls. It is tragic and scary at the same time, and in my mind completely plausible, because Chaos did it. I am not against weird 'impossible' occurrences of femarines, I am against loyalist chapters inducting them like it is normal. Silber's famarines do this well, if Silbers keeps what he was considering. SO does that make my point better? The Ultramarines may not include women, but a renegade chapter who has little love for approved practices invoking sorcery and science to make something that isn't normally acceptable.

Even if this isn't the prevailing sentiment, I agree with it. Dr Thunder's approach is a hundred times more interesting than an all-female company of Ultrasmurves.

@kogwar: Start a thread on the Lost Sons and the people will come. Honestly, there ought to be a separate thread for Black Widow fluff by this point but I'll leave that up to Thunder.

I did and Dr thunder he is right

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is this a book? Or did you make it up? It's very in depth if you have.

Heh? I just made it up. It's not really that in depth, I'm just making stuff up as I go along.

Anyway, what would INSANE in the mebmrane count as? Does that make you corrupted? Personally, while it does not excuse you're actions, I think not.

Hmm. I always saw "corruption" as being from the eyes of the Imperium.

Though I don't always agree with him, in this case, Gwar! is totally correct

.

You're so just trying to get into his Si-

Case closed, you can all go home now. No Further discussion is warranted

augfubuoy wrote:Hey hey hey. I don't really care about being/not being in Gwar!'s signature, but I only read the first page of the thread, and he seemed to have the most logical argument on the first page, that's all OK?

yeesh...

WHAT THE HECK and augfubuoy have you posted on one of my threads before

oh...

It just seemed that you had chapters of the damn story.

Anyway, that is a sign of a creative (if dangerously unbalanced) mind.

Manchu wrote:
It would be an effing epic story. Some introductory sketches:

her mother was from theocracy of infected Shrine World
her father was member of Navis Nobilite
their marriage was part of an ancient pact between the Navy and the Ecclesiarchy
both parents killed in a Chaos boarding action (maybe Fabius involved--he recognizes and personally spares her)
fleet saved at the last minute but she is left an orphan
because she is the "wax seal" as it were between such powerful parties she is adopted by powerful people
she is put into schola progeniume
she makes friends there
becomes friends with future inquisitor (crush develops)
she becomes fanatically religious but has bad flashbacks of her parents death so she joins a non-militant order of Adepta Sororitas
after brief exposure to battle, her corruption partially awakens
through great faith and some of her training, she overcomes the awakening
but she's a much more grim person and decides to train with militant chamber
she goes into battle and tries to keep it together
gradually aware that something is deeply wrong with her
maybe she has to spend some time in the Repentia
meets up with school friend who is now a radical inquisitor and doesn't want to burn her immediately
she leaves sororitas on assignment with Inquisitor friend as part of his retinue
she eventually picks up the scent of the maruaders who killed her parents
ultimately confronts truth about self and has to fight fully-fledged Black Widows

multiple conflict develops:
(1) revenge motive is source of faith but potentially source of fall
(2) "who am I really?" (your point, can the damned be saved?)
(3) distaste for Inquisitor friend's flexibility toward psykers, etc but dependent upon him for protection
(4) balanced off against a potential romance with him

Effing brilliant, Manchu, I'll start on chapter one right away.

Did you make that up on the spot Manchu? Again, this thread seems to be a melting pot of brilliant (yet insane) minds.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Manchu wrote:
It would be an effing epic story. Some introductory sketches:

her mother was from theocracy of infected Shrine World
her father was member of Navis Nobilite
their marriage was part of an ancient pact between the Navy and the Ecclesiarchy
both parents killed in a Chaos boarding action (maybe Fabius involved--he recognizes and personally spares her)
fleet saved at the last minute but she is left an orphan
because she is the "wax seal" as it were between such powerful parties she is adopted by powerful people
she is put into schola progeniume
she makes friends there
becomes friends with future inquisitor (crush develops)
she becomes fanatically religious but has bad flashbacks of her parents death so she joins a non-militant order of Adepta Sororitas
after brief exposure to battle, her corruption partially awakens
through great faith and some of her training, she overcomes the awakening
but she's a much more grim person and decides to train with militant chamber
she goes into battle and tries to keep it together
gradually aware that something is deeply wrong with her
maybe she has to spend some time in the Repentia
meets up with school friend who is now a radical inquisitor and doesn't want to burn her immediately
she leaves sororitas on assignment with Inquisitor friend as part of his retinue
she eventually picks up the scent of the maruaders who killed her parents
ultimately confronts truth about self and has to fight fully-fledged Black Widows

multiple conflict develops:
(1) revenge motive is source of faith but potentially source of fall
(2) "who am I really?" (your point, can the damned be saved?)
(3) distaste for Inquisitor friend's flexibility toward psykers, etc but dependent upon him for protection
(4) balanced off against a potential romance with him

Effing brilliant, Manchu, I'll start on chapter one right away.

\

Plez for the love of god make a thread this story is to awsome to leach off another thread.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Effing brilliant, Manchu, I'll start on chapter one right away.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Did you make that up on the spot Manchu? Again, this thread seems to be a melting pot of brilliant (yet insane) minds.

Dr Thunder is the brilliant one. Those suggestions just flow from his ideas.

@Dr Thunder: Please PM me rough drafts if you like. I could really get into that story.

Now if only he spent this much time writing fluff for Candy Land.