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Hades. If you follow SA, the unit is removed, right? So how are you going to WBB models that are no longer on the table?!
And no, SA does not say all special rules are null and void. Just those that don't specifically mention SA. Such as WBB.
And god yes, please, someone SA this thread!

*Gwar" Sweeping Advances the Thread, but accidently Sweeping Advances the Wrong Thread and hits a Thread about BLUD REHVEN SPESS MAHRINES and so instead applies No Retreat!*

Gwar! wrote:It does:
"No Save or Special rule can save the unit"

Exactly gwar! No save or Special rule can save the unit. All other special rules that don't save the unit still apply.

Huh? Are you drunk. I said NO SPECIAL RULE.

Does WBB (which is a Special Rule) mention SA? No, do it cannot save them at all in any form EVER!

We just need a facepalm ork icon now.

I officially nominate this thread as an actual reason we need one.

It only states that special rules that save the unit dont apply. All others are still in effect.

And don no necron model gets removed. Thats in the necron codex they get placed on their side unless hit by a power weapon or something that causes instant death.

Hades wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It does:
"No Save or Special rule can save the unit"

Exactly gwar! No save or Special rule can save the unit. All other special rules that don't save the unit still apply.

Correct. So the unit is gone, removed from the table. And I ask you again. How are you going to WBB models that are no longer on the table?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hades wrote:It only states that special rules that save the unit dont apply. All others are still in effect.

And don no necron model gets removed. Thats in the necron codex they get placed on their side unless hit by a power weapon or something that causes instant death.

Nope, you already agreed that SA works on them,. and sweeping advance requires you to remove the unit.

See above post don_mondo.

Ditto, see above post

dude listen to me very carefully. The necron codex states that ANY time a necron model would be removed, it is placed on its side and ignored for all normal game purposes, it is debris only.

Yeah, and SA says that it doesn't, because the rule doesn't specificaly say "against SA"

P.S. The use of the Word "Dude" died out some time in 1994.

It doesnt have to, its not a rule thats saving the necrons in any way. The last time i checked, debris is nowhere close to being effective as a necron. But hey i don't want to discourage your fights with debris gwar!

Hades wrote:It doesnt have to, its not a rule thats saving the necrons in any way. The last time i checked, debris is nowhere close to being effective as a necron. But hey i don't want to discourage your fights with debris gwar!

It doesn't matter if WBB says that they are debris or scenery or even mashed potatoes.

SA says that the unit is removed from the table.
WBB says that instead of beeing removed, the models are placed on their side.
SA says that no special rule can prevent them from beeing removed unless it specifically mentions SA.
Therefore the necron models are removed from the table and can't get an WBB roll on their next turn.

Yeah, the point that someone else made was something like this:

Once the unit is swept, it is destroyed (Gives up a KP, and no WBBing can form that original unit again (no original unit to join)) but when WBB occurs, they go to a Completely Different Unit. So WBB isn't saving that unit (remember that unit is gone, kp given up) but rather making another unit above what it was at.

Eight Ball wrote:Yeah, the point that someone else made was something like this:

Once the unit is swept, it is destroyed (Gives up a KP, and no WBBing can form that original unit again (no original unit to join)) but when WBB occurs, they go to a Completely Different Unit. So WBB isn't saving that unit (remember that unit is gone, kp given up) but rather making another unit above what it was at.

That could work except for the little fact that until the WBB roll is actually made the models are still from the same unit (the one that got SAed), and so have to be removed from play.

I am sure this was brought up already... I'm too lazy to read through 5 pages of people saying the same thing.

If you can port downed models of a unit through the monolith to gain a WBB roll (because they are still part of the unit, if there are non-downed models in the unit), then those same models can also suffer from SA (because they are still part of the unit).

It would not make sense to do it any other way.

NOTE: I am at work and am not looking at a rulebook currently. I am simply using logic (in a RAW debate, it means nothing) and is only my 2 cents.

EDIT:

Removed Quote, as it was misread

The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over. ~BGB

The rule exactly word for word out of the BGB. There are two key parts of this rule that people are not zeroing in on.

1. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. The necron codex states that any time a necron model would be removed, place it on its side unless hit by a power weapon or a weapon that causes instant death. So the necron models are swept and placed on their side immediately. All i did was replace "Removed" and "placed on their side" exactly as the codex tells me too.

2. No save or special rule can save the unit at this stage. At this stage. The stage is the point of the sweeping advance. WBB is not giving them a 4+ save on each model at the point of the sweeping advance, they are placed on their side and WBB does nothing to prevent this. Once the stage is over and done with, then do the necrons have a 4+ roll to get back up.

So why is it that people still have problems getting this? Maybe because 4th edition 40k specifically stated that WBB doesn't work against sweeping. In 5th edition, this was omitted. You know what else 4th has that 5th doesn't? If there's a unit I want to shoot at but theirs another unit thats closer I have to take a morale check to shoot at them. Do people still follow this rule? No because it was omitted. Oh yes 4th also said that if you don't make a BS check a blast weapon completely misses. Is this in 5th edition? No it was omitted. I suggest you reread the 5th edition BGB because 4th is over. 5th RAW is the way we have to play.

I can only lay out the rules for you, you have to look at them and read them RAW. This is the game we play, 40k. We have to follow the RAW.

There, you admit it. It worked in 4th, the rule is the exact same in 5th, why would it work differently? Did the necron godex get a super stealth update?

Hades wrote:
I can only lay out the rules for you, you have to look at them and read them RAW. This is the game we play, 40k. We have to follow the RAW.

:Insert facepalm Ork here:

Hades wrote:2. No save or special rule can save the unit at this stage. At this stage. The stage is the point of the sweeping advance. WBB is not giving them a 4+ save on each model at the point of the sweeping advance, they are placed on their side and WBB does nothing to prevent this. Once the stage is over and done with, then do the necrons have a 4+ roll to get back up.

This is the part I had tried explaining earlier, but people didn't listen, and it's an interesting point. (They obviously put the "at this stage" in there for a reason...)

The rule was changed gwar! That's the reason it works differently. Not that hard to understand. Please read all of my post and not just parts of it.

Okay so if a special rule cannot rescue the unit at this stage (when the are destroyed and removed immediately), how is laying them down instead of removing them not rescuing them? According to the SA, they must be removed immediately and no special rule can rescue them.

How is the special rule able to stop them from being removed yet not considered rescuing them?

Isn't not removing them "rescuing" them from being removed? AT THIS STAGE?

Dracos wrote:Okay so if a special rule cannot rescue the unit at this stage (when the are destroyed and removed immediately), how is laying them down instead of removing them not rescuing them? According to the SA, they must be removed immediately and no special rule can rescue them.

How is the special rule able to stop them from being removed yet not considered rescuing them?

Isn't not removing them "rescuing" them from being removed? AT THIS STAGE?

The necron codex states that ANY time a model would be removed, place it on it's side and it is ignored for all normal game purposes, it is debris only. I'm pretty sure that ANY includes SA. Please read the entire thread if you wish to post because i've stated this many times.

Hades wrote:
I'm pretty sure that ANY includes SA. Please read the entire thread if you wish to post because i've stated this many times.

Except that SA specifically says otherwise.
The rest I quoted for humor.

Maybe you should read the thread. I've already been posting about this all throughout. I've already offered refutation of every point being brought up.

WBB is a special rule, and even though "any time" a model would be removed its placed on its side. WBB's effect is from a special rule.

You know, the special rules that SA says specifically cannot prevent them from being removed?

edit: Hades, I like how you join a thread on p.5 and then tell someone who has been reading and responding since the beginning to read the rest of the thread. Doesn't you being unaware of the ~10-15 posts I've written imply YOU didnt read the thread?

Hades wrote:The rule was changed gwar! That's the reason it works differently. Not that hard to understand. Please read all of my post and not just parts of it.

I already proved in 2 other threads the rule didn't change.

At this point I really wish there was a way that other users could wager on how long a thread will go in complete circles before the moderators close it down. That way we could have charitable forum trolling and still benefit the site. >.> But just to get my kick in on the dead horse...

The only thing which changed between 4th and 5th edition is that WBB is no longer explicitly mentioned as an example of a rule which loses to SA. If it makes you feel any better, you can put the models down on the table before removing them immediately, but they're still going to be removed by the sweeping advance because at that point it can't save them.

Dracos wrote:Maybe you should read the thread. I've already been posting about this all throughout. I've already offered refutation of every point being brought up.

WBB is a special rule, and even though "any time" a model would be removed its placed on its side. WBB's effect is from a special rule.

You know, the special rules that SA says specifically cannot prevent them from being removed?

No SA never states that nothing can prevent them from being removed, it says no save or special rule can save them at this stage. removed=layed on their side for a necron model.

How could it change? The codex is older than 4th edition.

I think he means the SA rules, not that it helps the case.