Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Eight Ball wrote:Yeah, what part is the selective quoting, that IS the rule "A Necron that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, is laid on it's side to show it's damaged..."

Because SA doesn't remove them as casualties. It just Removes them. Big Difference.

No, I'm wondering what part was misquoted Gwar

Ok, i have been reading along with this thread of total fail and decided to chirp in.

SA removes units from the table
WBB wants to prevent that unit from being removed (by laying the model on its side), but it cannot prevent the unit from being removed, because it does not specify against SA.

I understand SA says at this stage, and yes, if you could lay your models on their side, then at the start of the next turn you would get a WBB, but you cant lay the models on their side. the battle is over for them.

so you cannot lay a model on its side. arguement over, WBB cannot kick in.

Dracos wrote:

Hades wrote:Dude look. SA says that nothing can SAVE them. You are technically removing the models. You are performing the same action because necron models are laid on their side and not removed. They are DEAD. Whether or not they are removed or laid on their side for that stage they are DEAD NECRONS. WBB saves them at a later stage.

Wow this is the most ridiculous claim yet. Now, you are not removing them if you lay them on their side instead.If the wording just said they were destroyed, you might have more of a leg to stand on. But the SA rule state to remove the models immediately, and that no special rule can rescue them from being removed (it uses the word rescue, not save fyi).

WBB offers a replacement effect to removing models, it is NOT the SAME as removing them.

In fact, you are rescuing them from being removed immediately if you lay them on their side.

YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

Eight Ball wrote:No, I'm wondering what part was misquoted Gwar

The one where you claimed it worked when they were "removed", but they have to be "Removed as Casualties"

Eight Ball wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

If you're gonna use that argument, Casualties also says ""(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" so I guess you can't take WBB after getting shot down by bolters

Eight Ball, I want you to read the SA rule.

When you get to the part that says "No save or special rule..." I want you to stop and read each word individually, taking time to look them up in a dictionary.

Then I want you to take about 30 minutes for your mind to process the information you've just gathered, then come back and edit that post as you see fit.

I am not sure how I misquoted.... it sounds like GWAR! and I are in agreement.....

Is that what you were asking EightBall? What part of my selective quote was misquoted?

EDIT --

I am caught up now.

the part that I was arguing (again, stop getting so goddamn personal with it) was the "at this stage". NOTHING is stopping them from being destroyed from SA, but as WBB, they go to debris form, technically destroyed (If they ALL fail their WBB rolls, they are still all dead)

Hades wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Hades wrote:Dude look. SA says that nothing can SAVE them. You are technically removing the models. You are performing the same action because necron models are laid on their side and not removed. They are DEAD. Whether or not they are removed or laid on their side for that stage they are DEAD NECRONS. WBB saves them at a later stage.

Wow this is the most ridiculous claim yet. Now, you are not removing them if you lay them on their side instead.If the wording just said they were destroyed, you might have more of a leg to stand on. But the SA rule state to remove the models immediately, and that no special rule can rescue them from being removed (it uses the word rescue, not save fyi).

WBB offers a replacement effect to removing models, it is NOT the SAME as removing them.

In fact, you are rescuing them from being removed immediately if you lay them on their side.

YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

The effect of SA is that the models are removed immediately. If you prevent this from happening by laying them on their side, that is rescuing them.

That is simple english friend. You keep saying that WBB lays them on their side. There is no possible way you can claim that preventing them from being removed immediately is not rescuing them.

If nothing can save them at this stage, why are you saving them for another stage to save them?

^^

Nah, the rules are not crystal clear, if they were then I wouldn't have had multiple opponents argue that my warriors WBB and enter play as part of another unit.
That's why there have been multiple discussions posted on the topic (and I'm sure it'll happen again).

If a person, or persons, have a different opinion of the way 2 different rules from 2 different editions interact that happens to differ from your own, it doesn't make them idiotic.

Why are people so emotionally tide to this?
When I initially posted I just wanted to get some feedback on how people play it in there games.
Not see a bunch of emo-flailing and playground power games.
seriously, wtf? Leave it on the OT forum, where it belongs.
It really seems like some of you are just looking to find any excuse to call someone a fool, regardless of it being valid or not.
It makes the forum look bad.

The SA rules are perfectly clear.

Hades wrote:
YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

WRONG

I'll try to make this simple for you.

- When all necrons in a unit die, by the rules for the monolith, the FAQ and about 100 other places they are considered to still be a unit *until the WBB roll is made next turn*
- When you SA a unit, you remove the ENTIRE UNIT. THE ENTIRE UNIT. The repeat was in case you skip over that part.
- By attempting to lay the models down THE ENTIRE UNIT has not been removed. You have not complied with the SA rules which state THE ENTIRE UNIT MUST BE REMOVED.
- WBB therefore cannot work, as you are *saving* the unit when you do not have the SPECIFIC permission to do so.

Gah, how simple is this! WBB is a special rule that changes how casualty removal generally works for Necrons. SA is a specific rule for a specific situation. Specific > General

Specific > General
Specific > General

and once more for the hard of thinking:

Specific > General

Eight Ball wrote:the part that I was arguing (again, stop getting so goddamn personal with it) was the "at this stage". NOTHING is stopping them from being destroyed from SA, but as WBB, they go to debris form, technically destroyed (If they ALL fail their WBB rolls, they are still all dead)

But SA doesn't say they are destroyed, if it did, there might be some form of rational argument on the topic. It says they are removed immediately. If you do not remove them immediately, you are saving them from being removed immediately.
If SA said they were destroyed, then the break no rule standard would say, they are destroyed, so SA is satisfied, but then they can repair themselves so wbb is satisfied.
SA says REMOVE THEM IMMEDIATELY. So then you must figure out which rule to ignore in this situation, luckily you don't have to decide if SA or being necrons is more specific, because SA tells you very VERY clearly what to do if you have a special rule that conflicts with SA but does not specifically negate it, it tells you to ignore that special rule.

Hades wrote:You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris.

The way that thi

Deffgob wrote:

Eight Ball wrote:the part that I was arguing (again, stop getting so goddamn personal with it) was the "at this stage". NOTHING is stopping them from being destroyed from SA, but as WBB, they go to debris form, technically destroyed (If they ALL fail their WBB rolls, they are still all dead)

But SA doesn't say they are destroyed, if it did, there might be some form of rational argument on the topic. It says they are removed immediately. If you do not remove them immediately, you are saving them from being removed immediately.
If SA said they were destroyed, then the break no rule standard would say, they are destroyed, so SA is satisfied, but then they can repair themselves so wbb is satisfied.
SA says REMOVE THEM IMMEDIATELY. So then you must figure out which rule to ignore in this situation, luckily you don't have to decide if SA or being necrons is more specific, because SA tells you very VERY clearly what to do if you have a special rule that conflicts with SA but does not specifically negate it, it tells you to ignore that special rule.

99% accurate, but SA does say they are BOTH destroyed AND removed immediately. WBB is okay with them being destroyed, but conflicts on the removed immediately (as you noted above).

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hades wrote:
YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

WRONG

I'll try to make this simple for you.

- When all necrons in a unit die, by the rules for the monolith, the FAQ and about 100 other places they are considered to still be a unit *until the WBB roll is made next turn*
- When you SA a unit, you remove the ENTIRE UNIT. THE ENTIRE UNIT. The repeat was in case you skip over that part.
- By attempting to lay the models down THE ENTIRE UNIT has not been removed. You have not complied with the SA rules which state THE ENTIRE UNIT MUST BE REMOVED.
- WBB therefore cannot work, as you are *saving* the unit when you do not have the SPECIFIC permission to do so.

Gah, how simple is this! WBB is a special rule that changes how casualty removal generally works for Necrons. SA is a specific rule for a specific situation. Specific > General

Specific > General
Specific > General

and once more for the hard of thinking:

Specific > General

Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Hades wrote:
Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Translation: Whaaa Whaaa I'm wrong but Stubborn I'm gonna Emoragequit

Hades wrote:Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Okay, quote the rules section in WBB that says that laying them down IS THE SAME GAME EFFECT as removing them.

The thing is, it doesn't say they are the same thing. Instead, it tells you to replace the effect of removing it as casualty with laying them down.

That is fine, except special rules can't alter the effect of SA, which is to remove them immediately.

Basic algebra is nice, but your analogy is about as flawed as your interpretation of the rules.

Hades wrote:
Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Wow, you dont understand rules do you?

The SA rule says remove the unit - by laying them on their side you have not complied with SA, it is very simple. The UNIT still exists if you lay them on their side - if you wish to argue that the unit does not exist, please try to do so, it will no doubt be as ill thought out as your current argument.

Later bye, don't let the door hit you on the way out, it may spoil your attempt at a flounce rage quit. If you do turn up addfress the specific point above (without bringing spurious algebra in, lol) or one of the many others, or you will have aded yet more noise without any content.

Allow me to quote Yakface on this. It is from the link to a thread I gave as the first reply to this thread

yakface wrote:

A special rule would have to say specifically that the unit is immune to being wiped out by a sweeping advance. ANY OTHER special rule does not apply, because for models killed by a sweeping advance the "battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."

WBB is a special rule that reduces the damage suffered (as it allows models to get back up and fight again) and therefore does not work when the unit is wiped out via a sweeping advance.

INB4YAKF....

DAMNIT!

Gwar! wrote:

Hades wrote:
Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

Translation: Whaaa Whaaa I'm wrong but Stubborn I'm gonna Emoragequit

OK. This argument was so terrifyingly wrong that I wasn't even going to address it, but here we go.

If the way that wbb worked is by replacing all instances of the words "remove from play/destroyed" in the bgb with "place on their side" then when a necron is killed by a power weapon, you would go into the BGB and see what happens. But there are no specific rules on what to do when a model is killed by a power weapon, so you would have to just look up what happens when a model is reduced to 0 wounds and by your insane ctrl+r logic regarding the functionality of wbb, the necron would get his roll.

Dracos wrote:Allow me to quote Yakface on this. It is from the link to a thread I gave as the first reply to this thread

yakface wrote:
You seem to be skipping over this part of the Sweeping Advance rule:

"Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."


A special rule would have to say specifically that the unit is immune to being wiped out by a sweeping advance. ANY OTHER special rule does not apply, because for models killed by a sweeping advance the "battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."

WBB is a special rule that reduces the damage suffered (as it allows models to get back up and fight again) and therefore does not work when the unit is wiped out via a sweeping advance.

Okay I gotta quickly ask something before my comp craps out again. I have the small rulebook (even though both rulebooks have the same rules) and mine just says "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over" I see no part about "special rule that normally reduces the damaged suffered" part, or am I just missing that?

Modquisition on.
I am closing at OP request. While we don't necessarily follow the will of the OP I think its prudent in this case.

This may be an agree to disagree thread moment.

Hades wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Hades wrote:
YES IT IS! Necrons are placed on their side instead of being removed! Thats the way it is. You are not saving them in any way because the necrons are considered dead and ignored. They are debris. They arn't considered necrons again untill the next bloody turn on a 4+. You have to understand time to get this rule. Swept > Dead > Consolidate > Necron turn > WBB rolls

WRONG

I'll try to make this simple for you.

- When all necrons in a unit die, by the rules for the monolith, the FAQ and about 100 other places they are considered to still be a unit *until the WBB roll is made next turn*
- When you SA a unit, you remove the ENTIRE UNIT. THE ENTIRE UNIT. The repeat was in case you skip over that part.
- By attempting to lay the models down THE ENTIRE UNIT has not been removed. You have not complied with the SA rules which state THE ENTIRE UNIT MUST BE REMOVED.
- WBB therefore cannot work, as you are *saving* the unit when you do not have the SPECIFIC permission to do so.

Gah, how simple is this! WBB is a special rule that changes how casualty removal generally works for Necrons. SA is a specific rule for a specific situation. Specific > General

Specific > General
Specific > General

and once more for the hard of thinking:

Specific > General

Ok obviously no matter how many times I say this no one gets it. Removed is the exact same thing as laid on their side. X="removed" Y="Laid on their side". The codex states that X= Y so replace Removed with laid on their side in the BGB when talking about necrons. This is all im going to say because I have better things to do than discuss this with people who don't know basic algebra. Later.

I think you are on the right track... but lets finish the thought.
x= removed AS A CASUALTY
y=laid on their side

When referring to Necrons, replace x with y -

X doesn't exist in the SA rules.... simply removed. it doesn't say anything about removing AS A CASUALTY.