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So I think I may have been handicapping myself further than just pushing robots would indicate.

I've been playing that if a necron squad is swept, it is removed from play.
Including the downed necrons.

After re-reading the codex and the rulebook, it seems to me that I've been doing this wrong.
The appropriate sections:
   Rulebook: "Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage;"
   Codex: "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged."
Reading those together, it seems like that a swept necron unit would just hit the table and WBB next turn (if normal WBB requirements are met) as WBB 'differently specifies' that 'otherwise be removed as a casualty' models can WBB

So, have I been playing this wrong?

WBB is a special rule.

It does not specify that it can save necrons from sweeping advance, so it does not! (it would have to specifically mention sweeping advance in order to "specify otherwise")

There have been threads on this before with everything to be said said. Your points are not new. Read those threads for more information.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/239634.page#711680

That is an example of such a thread.

See, you've got a valid point besides the fact that the Necron rule doesn't specifically mention sweeping advance.

"Unless differently specified"

The codex doesn't specifically mention sweeping advance allows WBB, so I've always just treated it, that WBB doesn't happen on a sweeping advance.

My search-fu failed me, thanks for the link.

I still think that the problem here is is that people are being overzealous with the application of sweeping advance.

"No save or special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage."

We're good on that. WBB isn't saving or reducing damage suffered on a necron unit. It dies as normal and doesn't reduce the damage sufferd or save the unit. You've destroyed the necron unit, and they fall shattered to pieces. There's not an actual conflict between WBB and sweeping advance because they don't contradict.

Additionally, the phrase, "Unless differently specified" doesn't mean that a codex needs to call out the phrase "applies to USR: Sweeping advance." That's an obscene request; codexes aren't written in that language. There is an example here of codex language written in such a fashion to directly overrule the BRB; in such cases, codex rules take precedent.
BRB: When a model in a unit dies, remove it from play. When a unit dies, remove it from play.
Necron Codex: Unit dies, do not remove it from play. Lay it down on its side.

The necron codex is specifically overruling a universal rule by caveating exactly what treatment to give destroyed models and units. You can't ignore a codex' rules in favor of the BRB when the codex is being more specific about how to deal with a situation.

The phrase, "Unless differently specified" means exactly that: Do X unless codex directs you to do Y. The rule does not say, "Do X unless codex directs you to do Y and specifically not X." Requiring the necron codex, or any codex to make specific calls into the BRB for interpretations of USRs is unrealistic; they aren't written that way. I'm a fan of analogies, so here's a perfect one:

Father says to his son: "Take out the trash every morning before breakfast unless your mother tells you otherwise."
One morning while the son is getting ready to take out the trash, the mother says "Don't worry about that right now, help me make breakfast."
The father says to the son, "Why didn't you take out the trash before breakfast this morning?"
The son says, "Father, mother told me to help her make breakfast instead."
The father says to the son, "Did the words 'Do not take out the trash this morning before breakfast' come out of her mouth?

Get where this is going? The sweeping advance interpretation that you guys are throwing out is a false dilemma.

Belphegor wrote:After re-reading the codex and the rulebook, it seems to me that I've been doing this wrong.
The appropriate sections:
Rulebook: "Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage;"
Codex: "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged."
Reading those together, it seems like that a swept necron unit would just hit the table and WBB next turn (if normal WBB requirements are met) as WBB 'differently specifies' that 'otherwise be removed as a casualty' models can WBB

That means that it MUST specifically state "This can save necron models from a sweeping advance." to save them from a sweeping advance.



EDIT- Quoted wrong on poriginal post.




-Orkishly

In the 4th ed book, the rule actually mentions WBB and how it does not save necrons in any way. The phrasing is almost identical, except that the removed that bit of reminder text to save a bit of space. They figured that saying "unless otherwise specified" was enough for people to figure out that WBB does not work. Sadly, they were quite wrong.

Dashofpepper wrote:I still think that the problem here is is that people are being overzealous with the application of sweeping advance.

"No save or special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage."

We're good on that. WBB isn't saving or reducing damage suffered on a necron unit. It dies as normal and doesn't reduce the damage sufferd or save the unit. You've destroyed the necron unit, and they fall shattered to pieces. There's not an actual conflict between WBB and sweeping advance because they don't contradict.

When you allow them to use their WBB special rule, it is reducing the damage because the overall effect is that you have more models on the field. Irregardless, it finishes "for them the battle is over. How are you complying with that part if you give them further rolls (roles as well) in the battle?

Additionally, the phrase, "Unless differently specified" doesn't mean that a codex needs to call out the phrase "applies to USR: Sweeping advance." That's an obscene request; codexes aren't written in that language. There is an example here of codex language written in such a fashion to directly overrule the BRB; in such cases, codex rules take precedent.
BRB: When a model in a unit dies, remove it from play. When a unit dies, remove it from play.
Necron Codex: Unit dies, do not remove it from play. Lay it down on its side.

No, that is exactly what it means, how many different ways can it be iterated? It must make a specific exception. (SA is not a USR...)

The necron codex is specifically overruling a universal rule by caveating exactly what treatment to give destroyed models and units. You can't ignore a codex' rules in favor of the BRB when the codex is being more specific about how to deal with a situation.

Actually it does not overrule it. Its specific rules overruling general. So generally, when necrons are destroyed they are layed down instead. More specifically, during a sweeping advance no model may use a special rule to save itself unless it specifies differently. WBB does not say that it is exempt from this more specific situation, so it is not.

The phrase, "Unless differently specified" means exactly that: Do X unless codex directs you to do Y. The rule does not say, "Do X unless codex directs you to do Y and specifically not X." Requiring the necron codex, or any codex to make specific calls into the BRB for interpretations of USRs is unrealistic; they aren't written that way.

Get where this is going? The sweeping advance interpretation that you guys are throwing out is a false dilemma.

That is what the language calls for. More specific rules override general, and that statement makes sure nothing can stop the models from being removed unless it says otherwise. Its a trump card. You have to have the anti-trump to beat it.

Yes, the models are removed, and then they're put laid back down on the table, awaiting a potential we'll be back roll. Both rules are satisfied, case closed.

One of the things I don't understand is why people bring up the 4th edition/5th edition as a cause for this not to work. The omission of the text that denies we'll be back seems to me that, if anything, We'll be back MAY be used; especially since the rules act on different triggers. It's almost as if the writers *gasp* changed the rules for 5th edition.

How are the models removed and then put back down?

That's not how WBB works at all. Its an "instead of" not "after" removing.

The only part of your post that is accurate, imo, is "Yes, the models are removed".

WBB calls for the models to not be removed at all. There is no way that removing them and putting them back follows the rules at all.

Oh god, not this again

-goes into the corner and cries-

Cliffs Notes: WBB doesn't work against Sweeping Advance.

Belphegor, you've been playing it correctly. Nuff said?

Belphegor wrote:So I think I may have been handicapping myself further than just pushing robots would indicate.

I've been playing that if a necron squad is swept, it is removed from play.
Including the downed necrons.

<BIG SNIPPAGE>

So, have I been playing this wrong?

WBB cannot save you from SA.

Feel free to check the other threads for supporting information.

Dracos wrote:

Actually it does not overrule it. Its specific rules overruling general. So generally, when necrons are destroyed they are layed down instead. More specifically, during a sweeping advance no model may use a special rule to save itself unless it specifies differently. WBB does not say that it is exempt from this more specific situation, so it is not.

Like I said in my first post, you're going about the entire thing backwards. The general rule is that when a model dies, you remove it from play. When a unit dies, it goes away.
There's a specific necron rule that says you don't do that; you lay them down to represent that they're destroyed and awaiting a WBB attempt.

You can look up supporting information in other threads all day, but when they're using a flawed premise, you end up with the same results. Here's an example...

"In 4th edition, SA mentioned WBB rolls. Therefore, we can assume that they intended it in 5th edition even though they specifically took that line out of the rulebook to save space."

1. I didn't play 40k back in 4th edition. I don't care what the rules said back then, or how they compare to 5th. I only know this edition, and this edition is the only one in play, and the only one that matters.
2. When you assume it makes an ass out of you and an ass out of me. Don't do it. You're not GW, you don't get to presume you know why they changed a rule. For all you know, they removed the WBB clause from sweeping advance because they want WBB to still work. That makes MUCH more sense than they're trying to save space in their book.

Don't get me wrong here...I don't play Necron, but it really irks me that people form their judgements about a rule based on their assumptions that something has more meaning than is written on the page. I think that if you read the rule for sweeping advance, then read the WBB entry, and DO NOT TRY EXTRAPOLATING meaning....its pretty clear that necron guys get a WBB.

Dashofpepper wrote:its pretty clear that necron guys get a WBB.

Considering it is Super Clear they don't, I suggest making an appointment with your Optician asap.

Just tell me, what part of "NO SPECIAL RULE CAN SAVE THEM" don't you understand? WBB is a special rule that could save them, so is ignored.

And in 5th edition rules, if a special rule does not specifically mention Sweeping Advance, then it affords no protection from SA. Now, your turn. Show us where WBB specifically mentions that it protects Necrons from Sweeping Advance............... Doesn't say that, does it?

End of discussion.

You don't get a save for sweeping advance casualties, which means that, unless you have a res orb inside of 6", you're not getting a WBB roll according to RAW.

Dronze wrote:You don't get a save for sweeping advance casualties, which means that, unless you have a res orb inside of 6", you're not getting a WBB roll according to RAW.

YOU DON'T GET A WBB ROLL ANYWAY.

Even with a res orb nearby, you don't get WBB. The unit is gone. Period.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Like I said in my first post, you're going about the entire thing backwards. The general rule is that when a model dies, you remove it from play. When a unit dies, it goes away.
There's a specific necron rule that says you don't do that; you lay them down to represent that they're destroyed and awaiting a WBB attempt.

You can look up supporting information in other threads all day, but when they're using a flawed premise, you end up with the same results. Here's an example...

"In 4th edition, SA mentioned WBB rolls. Therefore, we can assume that they intended it in 5th edition even though they specifically took that line out of the rulebook to save space."

1. I didn't play 40k back in 4th edition. I don't care what the rules said back then, or how they compare to 5th. I only know this edition, and this edition is the only one in play, and the only one that matters.
2. When you assume it makes an ass out of you and an ass out of me. Don't do it. You're not GW, you don't get to presume you know why they changed a rule. For all you know, they removed the WBB clause from sweeping advance because they want WBB to still work. That makes MUCH more sense than they're trying to save space in their book.

Don't get me wrong here...I don't play Necron, but it really irks me that people form their judgements about a rule based on their assumptions that something has more meaning than is written on the page. I think that if you read the rule for sweeping advance, then read the WBB entry, and DO NOT TRY EXTRAPOLATING meaning....its pretty clear that necron guys get a WBB.

SA rule says that:

Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting.

WBB IS a special rule.
WBB DOES NOT specifically says that it trumps SA.

Therefore, WBB does not work with SA. Theres no ifs or buts here, this is not based in 4th edition rules or any other obscure RAI interpretation, its based solelly on the BRB and the Necron Codex RAW (but if you wan't to see an example on how a special rule would be worded to work with SA check the SM codex).

Dashofpepper wrote:2. When you assume it makes an ass out of you and an ass out of me. Don't do it. You're not GW, you don't get to presume you know why they changed a rule. For all you know, they removed the WBB clause from sweeping advance because they want WBB to still work. That makes MUCH more sense than they're trying to save space in their book.

Don't get me wrong here...I don't play Necron, but it really irks me that people form their judgements about a rule based on their assumptions that something has more meaning than is written on the page. I think that if you read the rule for sweeping advance, then read the WBB entry, and DO NOT TRY EXTRAPOLATING meaning....its pretty clear that necron guys get a WBB.

Ok, I'm sorry for trying to justify my answer by taking the way a rule used to be phrased instead of using a more relevant and sane approach like rambling on about a mom asking her kid to make breakfast.

Now, no assumptions or extrapolations of any kind.

SA says that no special rule that reduces damage may save the unit unless otherwise specified.

WBB does not mention SA so it does not specify otherwise, which brings the argument to "Is wbb a special rule that reduces damage?"

YES Yes, it is. Of course it is! You take a model that would have been destroyed and lay it on its side, where it remains in play, instead. I don't know how you could possibly be literate enough to read the WBB rule and not be able to understand that it is a special rule that reduces damage.

Seeing as it is a special rule that reduces damage, SA has something to say about it. SA says it does not work.

That's what you guys aren't keying in on...

SA doesn't allow any rule that reduces damage or saves a unit.

WBB doesn't reduce damage or save a unit. It gets wiped out, dead and gone. Turn ends, necrons are dead. Next turn...unique situation involving a WBB.

You can sweeping advance and wipe a unit out, and you've done everything required by Sweeping advance. The next turn, completely out of the assault cycle, necrons get a WBB roll if parameters are met, and they do everything required by sweeping advance.

You're trying to apply the WBB rule to mean something that it doesn't so that you can make it fit into sweeping advance. That's the problem; codexes are full of unique rules that don't fit into the nice, neat package that the BRB would make. That's why there are rules governing how to make them mesh.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The argument comes down to this: Does WBB attempt to reduce damage or save a necron unit? Absolutely not. The unit is wiped out and dead. WBB kicks in next turn to try reincarnating them; its outside the realm of the generalized rule about how to deal with things that are killed.

Dash, seriously, you are WRONG.

WBB does reduce the damage, just not right away. Again, look at the Space Marine Codex and the Wording of ATSKNF. It specificaly mentions SA. WBB does not, so it cannot Help them.

Let's look at this another way...

WBB allows necron units that have suffered wounds to regain those wounds (similar to regeneration). In those cases that models are removed from play without suffering wounds, like Instant Death and Sweeping Advance, WBB has no effect.

don_mondo wrote:And in 5th edition rules, if a special rule does not specifically mention Sweeping Advance, then it affords no protection from SA. Now, your turn. Show us where WBB specifically mentions that it protects Necrons from Sweeping Advance............... Doesn't say that, does it?

End of discussion.

And like I said earlier....you are INTERPRETING the rule to mean that. You just made a rule up. The rulebook does NOT say, "Unless a codex rule specifically says that it may take saves against sweeping advances, it may not." It says, Unless otherwise specified....your stuff is dead and gone.

Codexes aren't written in the language of the former. Its an absurd request to ask for it, and an abuse of English language. I've given an example of this before and here it is again.

Father to son: "Unless your mother tells you otherwise, take out the trash immediately after breakfast."
Breakfast ends, and as the son goes to take out the trash, the mother says, "Come help me do the dishes instead."

The kid has just been otherwise directed. The mother didn't need to say, "Do not take out the trash immediately after breakfast, come help me with the dishes instead," rather she gave counter-instructions for what to do after breakfast. She otherwise specified. What you're asking for is preposterous and illogical in terms of language.


And finally, its irrelevant. WBB doesn't save or reduce damage to a necron unit. It just attempts to reincarnate them into a unit the following turn. WBB otherwise specifies how to treat dead units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Dash, seriously, you are WRONG.

WBB does reduce the damage, just not right away. Again, look at the Space Marine Codex and the Wording of ATSKNF. It specificaly mentions SA. WBB does not, so it cannot Help them.

You're interpreting and stretching things a LOOOONG way.

Could you point me to the necron codex or the BRB to the section about reducing damage but not right away? If you believe that "Otherwise specified" requires such absurd language as "By the way, this applies to sweeping advances too," then it is perfectly reasonable to require your explanation to point to the necron codex or BRB explaining in precise words, "WBB is a one-turn delayed reduction in damage."

Because it isn't. It flies in the face of the very idea. I was going to whip out the dictionary and quote "reduce" to show a decrease in something, which isn't what happens. WBB doesn't decrease the damage the necron warriors take. They take it all, and get wiped out. No reductions were involved. The next turn, something completely different happens. There is NO SUCH THING as taking something that happened in one player phase, and resolving the effects of it a turn or two later. You resolve all things either immediately or at the end of a phase.

ATSKNF *specifically states* it works against SA. WBB does not.

YOU ARE WRONG. Admit it, move on and relax.

WBB attempts to remove damage - SA removes the whole unit, by not removing the whole unit you have reduced the damage the unit has taken. Sheesh. If you can't understand THAT you have serious literacy issues.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ATSKNF *specifically states* it works against SA. WBB does not.

YOU ARE WRONG. Admit it, move on and relax.

WBB attempts to remove damage - SA removes the whole unit, by not removing the whole unit you have reduced the damage the unit has taken. Sheesh. If you can't understand THAT you have serious literacy issues.

Feel free to read above regarding turns, phases, the fact that WBB doesn't actually reduce damage, then call yourself names and go back to school to address your own literacy problem. Sheesh.

Dashofpepper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ATSKNF *specifically states* it works against SA. WBB does not.

YOU ARE WRONG. Admit it, move on and relax.

WBB attempts to remove damage - SA removes the whole unit, by not removing the whole unit you have reduced the damage the unit has taken. Sheesh. If you can't understand THAT you have serious literacy issues.

Feel free to read above regarding turns, phases, the fact that WBB doesn't actually reduce damage, then call yourself names and go back to school to address your own literacy problem. Sheesh.

Wow, and here I was thinking that having 3 necrons removed instead of 11 was reducing damage. Who knew.

No offence intended, but that is Banana Logic to the Extreme.

Sigh.............
Dash, you're wrong. Don't know how to say it any plainer. Examples, precedence, rules, all disagree with your stance. You can keep saying "yaeh, but..." till you're blue in the face. Won't change reality. And reality in 40K is that WBB does not protect a unit against Sweeping Advance. Deal with it and move on.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Feel free to read above regarding turns, phases, the fact that WBB doesn't actually reduce damage, then call yourself names and go back to school to address your own literacy problem. Sheesh.

SA says that the models afected by it have to be removed from play and can take no further part in the battle, WBB tries to save them from this horrible fate, how is that not reducing damage?!

Seriously, just admit that you are wrong and move along.