Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ITT: People who get laughed at when they Play 40k (protip: I am not one of them, because I actually know the rules)

you know its kinda of interesting they took WBB out of the mention from 4th to 5th since necrons in their current form existed in their current form in 4th just as they do in 5th. The only reason to take out the rule is if it no longer applied.

blaktoof wrote:you know its kinda of interesting they took WBB out of the mention from 4th to 5th since necrons in their current form existed in their current form in 4th just as they do in 5th. The only reason to take out the rule is if it no longer applied.

No, the only reason was so that idiots didn't think it was ONLY WBB that didn't work. Looks like GW screwed that one up too.

Altimera wrote:Okay, let me take a crack at this using the presented logic.

Remember:

Sweeping Advance: The falling back unit is destroyed...The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over

WBB: Any necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damage.

Argument 1:
1. Necrons lose combat are caught in a SA
2a. They are reduced to 0 wounds
2b. As per WBB, they are placed on their side
3. Make the WBB rolls

Argument 2:
1. Necrons lose combat and are caught in a SA
2. As per SA, they are removed from play.

We cannot follow argument 1 because of the order of what happens, the models are removed from play; they are not reduced to 0 wounds, and WBB does not intervene at this stage (sweeping advance). I know it has been said that this is flawed logic, but the models are removed from play, nothing can stop this...that's it. You don't take WBB into account.

You're missing a couple of steps. In argument 1, you don't go from being reduced to 0 wounds to being placed on your side to making a WBB roll. There are some interim steps. Combat ends, the unit is destroyed, the phase ends, the next player starts their turn. Those are important steps. Nowhere in any of that combat did necrons attempt to reduce the damage they took nor save themselves.

In argument 2, you're missing something for your step 2:
2: As per SA, unless a rule explicitly mentions ignoring SA, the unit is removed from play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, there's a problem here: That second point in that second argument is a creative interpretation of the sweeping advance rule that doesn't actually follow the rules, and ignores the rules of the English language to arrive at an unsupported conclusion.

Additionally, sweeping advance applies to everything in terms of being destroyed, removed from play, etc....unless specified otherwise. The necron codex basically says, "Ignore the rules on casualties, it doesn't apply to you. Instead, resolve things this way instead." That's pretty explicitly "otherwise specified" and fits the criteria for for the sweeping advance rule too.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the end of the day, EVERYTHING here boils down to one single thing: Whether the words, "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over" can be legitimately twisted around into a new order, giving a new meaning of "Unless specifically allowed to ignore sweeping advance through wording of a special rule, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage."

Also, again, where are people getting this "reducing damage" stuff from? I'm reading the SA paragraphs, I see nothing about reducing damage

SA says the unit is destroyed, and nothing can stop them from getting destroyed....

...at which point "Any Necron otherwise removed instead gets put on it side; WBB etc" kicks in...

Eight Ball wrote:Also, again, where are people getting this "reducing damage" stuff from? I'm reading the SA paragraphs, I see nothing about reducing damage, it says the unit is destroyed, and nothing can stop them from getting destroyed....

...at which point "Any Necron otherwise removed instead gets put on it side; WBB etc" kicks in...

Apart from the fact that SA says that you can't.

Gwar! wrote:Apart from the fact that SA says that you can't.

Apart from the fact that WBB says that you can.

EDIT: Sorry, just had to

WBB does not work against SA. WBB provides a very, very general rule for altering how casualties are removed. SA states you MUST remove the unit unless the rule you want to use specifically states otherwise.

WBB does not even come close to specifically stating - and specific > general so SA BRB rule > WBB.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Hey...there's a really, REALLY clear answer. WBB doesn't NEED to say that it works against SA.

Really? Because SA says it does. Simply put, as much as you WANT the rule to say something different, in order for a unit to survive being swept in any fashion, the words on the page require a specified exemption from the sweeping advance rule.

I'd like to present a point that seems to have been overlooked: does it make sense for necrons to be able to WBB after a SA from an in-universe point of view? I'd say yes. I may be wrong, but to me a sweeping advance is representative of the victorious unit running down the fleeing unit, just like what would be the case if the victorious unit just scored a buttload of wounds in the normal CC cycle. Obviously if the victorious unit has all power weapons or has double the fleeing unit's toughness in strength (or some other situation that denies WBB anyways), WBB should not be possible, BUT if they were swept by say, ork boyz, hell yeah they should be able to get back up! they're made of living metal! why should the fact that the necrons are fleeing suddenly make all CC weapons uber madly powerful? I'm not super familiar with WBB, but it seems to me like the necorns that just got swept need to have a certain units very close to make the WBB roll anyways.

tl;dr: imo WBB should work if the attackers arent already denying WBB from normal CC

p1. WBB is a special rule that prevents models that "would otherwise be removed as a casualty" from being removed, and instead is laid on the table
p2. The models caught by a Sweeping advance are "removed immediately", and "Unless specified differently, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."
C. WBB does not specify that it can stop sweeping advance from removing them immediately, so it cannot.

This is simple guys. Because WBB is a special rule, it needs a specific clause to prevent SA from "removing them immediately"

Not removing them from the battlefield is most certainly rescuing them.

Yeah, fluff wise they should be able to, and (arguably) they should be able to rule wise....it just makes sense (the fluff not the rules argument)

Dracos: you missed the "at this stage" as in nothing can stop them from getting KILLED that assault phase...nothing about not getting up at a later time (Like an example, a unit with "without number" getting SA STILL gets it's without number even though SA "says that nothing can save them")

Eight Ball wrote:Yeah, fluff wise they should be able to, and (arguably) they should be able to rule wise....it just makes sense (the fluff not the rules argument)

Dracos: you missed the "at this stage" as in nothing can stop them from getting KILLED that assault phase...nothing about not getting up at a later time (Like an example, a unit with "without number" getting SA STILL gets it's without number even though SA "says that nothing can save them")

No, you are not reading the rules, it says

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless specified differently, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

So according to SA you MUST remove them immediately, and then it goes on to say that no special rule can rescue the unit [from being removed immediately]".

Without number actually does not bring the same squad back, you get a new one. It counts as a separate killpoint and is treated as a new unit AFAIK. As such, sweeping advance destroying another unit has no bearing on WON. Irregardless, this is not about WON.

Yes, nothing is stopping them from being destroyed, no save is saving them at that point (as per the SA rules), BUT OH, WBB says that models that would otherwise be removed, get put on their side.


Also, just wondering...

Eight Ball wrote:

Dracos wrote:How are they complying with the part "for them, the battle is over" if you lay them down to take furthur part in the battle?

Well, if you're gonna argue that, how are they complying with "(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" (pg24 Casualties) ?

Eight Ball wrote:Yes, nothing is stopping them from being destroyed, no save is saving them at that point (as per the SA rules), BUT OH, WBB says that models that would otherwise be removed, get put on their side.

That would be rescuing them from being removed, which is explicitly prohibited by SA

Eight Ball wrote:Also, just wondering...

Eight Ball wrote:

Dracos wrote:How are they complying with the part "for them, the battle is over" if you lay them down to take furthur part in the battle?

Well, if you're gonna argue that, how are they complying with "(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" (pg24 Casualties) ?

This is a case of specific > general.

Generally, when a model is a casualty, it is no longer fit to participate in battle.

However, more specifically, if a necron model is a casualty it can still be repaired and sent back into the fray.

You must break no rules when interpreting them, except in one case. That case is if two rules conflict with each other, and in that case you must always follow the more specific rule.

Dracos wrote:p1. WBB is a special rule that prevents models that "would otherwise be removed as a casualty" from being removed, and instead is laid on the table
p2. The models caught by a Sweeping advance are "removed immediately", and "Unless specified differently, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."
C. WBB does not specify that it can stop sweeping advance from removing them immediately, so it cannot.

This is simple guys. Because WBB is a special rule, it needs a specific clause to prevent SA from "removing them immediately"

Not removing them from the battlefield is most certainly rescuing them.

Ah...see what you did there? Your p1. is apples. Your p2. is oranges. You can't compare apples and oranges. WBB != save or special rule that rescues the unit. That's the problem. You can't compare them together, because its "othewise specified" to treat them in a distinct manner.

And no...WBB does not need a specific clause with an annotation about sweeping advance. You only need that when you mix up the words of the sweeping advance rule, put them in a different order, etc. I've explained it several times already, just read up.

And on an interesting note, another poster had an insight that I think deserves merit...among other units, what about hormogaunts who have endless numbers who get swept? Would you argue that when that unit is destroyed, they may not re-enter play? Their codex entry doesn't specifically note sweeping advance, yet it gives another specific note on how to treat a destroyed hormogaunt unit. They come back onto the table fresh, at full strength.

You think that them getting sweeping advanced means that they don't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:
That would be rescuing them from being removed, which is explicitly prohibited by SA

Unless otherwise specified. Which WBB does.

I thought that any necron unit that was fully on the ground was destroyed anyway.

I don't play necrons a lot though, so I might be misremembering that rule.

(Personally, I think the prohibition against special rules rescuing them does apply to We'll be Back. If that prohibition was undone simply on account of a special rule allowing for the unit to be saved, it would invalidate that sentence completely.)

Dashofpepper wrote:WBB != save or special rule that rescues the unit. That's the problem. You can't compare them together, because its "othewise specified" to treat them in a distinct manner.

Herein lies your mistakes.

p1.WBB is a special rule
p2.WBB rescues models/units from being removed.
C: WBB is a special rule that rescues models from being removed.

Honestly Dash you are grasping at straws. Saying that WWB =/= a special rule that rescues the unit is absolutely incorrect.

I don't really see how you could come to that conclusion.

"The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless specified differently, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage".

What is it saying special rules can't rescue the unit from? Being removed immediately of course!

Sorry, but in no way does any part of your argument hold up.

Dracos wrote:Sorry, but in no way does any part of your argument hold up.

It doesn't, yet I get called a Troll

Well Gwar!, many of your posts come out as egotistical and when challenged you seldom back up your posts with little more than rhetoric, so yeah IMO you are a troll.

Also, your avatar is that of a troll. No more proof is needed on the internets.

edit: To be fair, alot of your posts are not trolling. But you do cross that line far to often IMO.

blaktoof wrote:Just because WBB doesnt mention sweeping advance does not mean that it is not a way that is "otherwise specified" to handle the unit being wiped.

One could easily read otherwise specified in the case of necrons as "they unit is wiped out so they are placed on their side due to WBB. If a res orb and a like unit are within 6" or a tomb spyder is within 12" and another unit of the same type is on the table then they may make WBB roll.

The otherwise specified method is WBB, it never actually says in the sweeping advance rule that the otherwise specified way of handling the unit being swept must state anything in regards to sweeping advance in its rules. For all intents in purposes sweeping advance is just ignoring saves/invulnerable safes/feel no pain.

Can yarrik/st.celestine/etc, or bionics work against sweeping advance?
What about models that are "without number"?

the removed from play part could be amended by the necrons codex rule of WBB wherein it states instead of being removed from play models are placed on their side.

The necrons arent recieving a save or special rule against the sweeping advance because at the end of the sweeping advance the unit is wiped out/removed.

However WBB states instead of being removed necrons are always left on table on their side for a WBB roll. I realize some people see this as a special save or rule but it is not because they do not immediately get a save or chance to getup in response to being swept so they have not been given a save or special rule to stop the unit from being wiped by sweeping advance.

Personally, I think the conversation should stop until you guys stop ignoring some very valid points. Hormogaunts with "without number" for example. In the stuff I just quoted.

Dashofpepper wrote:Personally, I think the conversation should stop until you guys stop ignoring some very valid points. Hormogaunts with "without number" for example. In the stuff I just quoted.

Yet more proof you have no clue what you are on about.

WO creates a whole new unit. It does not save the unit in any way shape or form, it just spawns a new unit out of thin air.

Dashofpepper wrote:Personally, I think the conversation should stop until you guys stop ignoring some very valid points. Hormogaunts with "without number" for example. In the stuff I just quoted.

I have addressed every single one of those issues you have quoted. Perhaps it is you who needs to stop ignoring it?

Dracos wrote:I have addressed every single one of those issues you have quoted. Perhaps it is you who needs to stop ignoring it?

Omg j00 iz a trollz!

High five, very nice!

C'mon now, be nice. You stopped discussing long ago and reverted to just name calling. There's nothing that you can say that hasn't been answered. You can't say the same in return because at the end of the day, you keep twisting the sweeping advance rule around so put the "otherwise specified" part somewhere to give it meaning that it doesn't have.

And that's what it always will boil down to. You sweeping advance a unit and perform a certain set of actions unless you're directed to perform a different set of actions. WBB directs you to perform a different set of actions. Moan all day about how the necron codex doesn't have the exact word that you think it should have to make it apply, but again...its a nonsensical request with respect to the rules, GW's writings, and the English language.

All signs point to the fact that SA doesn't stop WBB. Feel free to point to more precedent where you previously came to these forums and screamed obscenities and did name calling until the other side stopped posting logic so that you could declare a "moral victory" that the argument was won. Outshouting someone and making someone disgusted enough to stop replying to immaturity doesn't mean you won, it means that you're just a jerk.

And that's where this argument ends, like every other one here. I'm not going to post in here anymore, because I'm tired of logic and assertions being answered with obscenities and name-calling. At the point where logic, the rules, and even the English language rejected your arguments (cough Gwar!) you should have just stopped and left the argument instead of taking a new line of defense involving 4 letter words.

As for me personally...I've said everything that needs to be said, and I'm comfortable that every viewpoint has been expressed in this thread, and appropriate counters and counter-counters ad infinitum have been made. What I'm saying is that I'm comfortable in the knowledge that an intelligent reader can parse through this thread and arrive at only one logical conclusion. Sweeping Advance does not bar WBB from taking effect. There simply is no evidence pointing to the idea that it does that has not been disproven or demonstrated to be faulty.

And at the end of the day, you can 4+ it with an opponent if they play Necrons and the issue arises, or picket GW until they release an FAQ that addresses things people care about, because there is no definitive answer, and relying on people to read and comprehend without creatively adding meaning is a useless exercise.

After reading over peoples arguments and looking at it logically, I'd have to agree with dashofpepper.
Since after further looking it over, they way the two rules do not seem mutually exclusive.

BGB 1) Necrons fail Morale test
BGB 2) Necrons fail Iniative
BGB 3) no saves or special rules save the unit or special rule that noramally reduces the damage &
    The destroyed unit is removed immediately (including downed models) (BRG SA is currently successful)
NC 1) Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty
    (both the standing and downed models qualify for this statement),
    remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged.
    (BGB SA is still successful, and WBB rule is successful)
BGB 4) Victorious unit consolidates

the Stack:
(BGB SA +) The unit is destroyed, including the necrons that were downed prior to the SA.
(BGB SA +) The unit is removed, including the necrons that were downed prior to the SA.
    (NC +) WBB places the down the casualties, including the necrons that were downed prior to the SA
(BGB SA +) The victorious unit consolidates, as models were destroyed and downed models have no effect on models in play

How do

The destroyed unit is removed immediately (including downed models) (BRG SA is currently successful)

and

Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty (both the standing and downed models qualify for this statement), remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged. (BGB SA is still successful, and WBB rule is successful)

work simultaneously?

A destroyed model cannot simultaneously be removed from the table and remain on the table top.

Also, (open question) is a necron unit destroyed if all of it's models are downed, or am I just making things up?

I think everything that needs to be said on either side has been done, and further continuation will just result in mud slinging.

I feel that I have addressed and refuted every point of contention that you have brought Dash, yet you failed to do so in kind. Either way, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

While I feel you position has no merit, it is nevertheless another opinion on this topic. Other readers and interested parties should draw their conclusions based on the arguments presented. Lets not spend a dozen pages rehashing the same back and forth.

Orkeosaurus: Also, (open question) is a necron unit destroyed if all of it's models are downed, or am I just making things up?

The unit is destroyed but the models that are downed go to the closest unit of the same type when they WBB.
If there are no models of the same type left on the board they are removed.
Necron Lords are the exception to this.

Orkeosaurus: How do [above text] and [above text] work simultaneously?

They don't, in order for something WBB to be triggered, the model needs have cause to be removed first.
WBB does not cancel the effects of sweeping advance.
It's not FNP or a Save, both of those cancel the effect of a wound caused to a model.