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Hades, I'm going to try to make this as clear as possible.

SA says that you remove the models unless you have a special rule that specifically pertains to SA.

If you are putting the models on their side instead of removing them, then you are, in every possible interpretation of the word, saving them from being removed.

If you do not have a special rule that specifically says it works for SA, then it does not.

You are required by SA to remove the models from play. Then, if you'd like, you are more than welcome to take their WBB rolls and the surviving models may continue the fight with whatever enemy models they find inside your minis case, but they have already been removed from play, so they can't possibly be within 6" of another unit that is still in the game.

Hades wrote:
No SA never states that nothing can prevent them from being removed, it says no save or special rule can save them at this stage. removed=layed on their side for a necron model.

No. Laid on side = laid on side.
Removed is what SA makes you do.

Dracos wrote:
edit: Hades, I like how you join a thread on p.5 and then tell someone who has been reading and responding since the beginning to read the rest of the thread. Doesn't you being unaware of the ~10-15 posts I've written imply YOU didnt read the thread?

I've been here since page 2 dracos.

Next can we bring up nemesis force weapons, et al?

They are equally irrelevant.

Go out and buy the necron codex. I have it and i'm reading it right now. It says that removing models and laying them on their side is EXACTLY the same thing. Buy the codex, read it, reread it then come back. It is just they way necrons are played.

Hades wrote:Go out and buy the necron codex. I have it and i'm reading it right now. It says that removing models and laying them on their side is EXACTLY the same thing. Buy the codex, read it, reread it then come back. It is just they way necrons are played.

And you read the Rulebook. It says Sod the Codex unless it mentions SA.

And, in fairness I have read all of them, and I remember a fair amount of what I read.

Oddly enough, I understand it too.

Hades wrote:dude listen to me very carefully. The necron codex states that ANY time a necron model would be removed as a casualty, it is placed on its side and ignored for all normal game purposes, it is debris only.

I added the correction in bold.

Models removed from play due to sweeping advance are not removed as a casualty (I think).

Gwar! wrote:

Hades wrote:Go out and buy the necron codex. I have it and i'm reading it right now. It says that removing models and laying them on their side is EXACTLY the same thing. Buy the codex, read it, reread it then come back. It is just they way necrons are played.

And you read the Rulebook. It says Sod the Codex unless it mentions SA.

im 100% sure it doesnt.

Gwar: Why doesn't "Any time it would be removed" not include SA as well? It is used every other time (Regular casualties, other special rules ect) So why does "ANY TIME" suddenly not also mean with SA?

Eight Ball wrote: So why does "ANY TIME" suddenly not also mean with SA?

BECAUSE SWEEPING ADVANCE SAYS SO!

God damnit, read the rulebook. It says "Unless otherwise Specified" (as in, specificity mentioned) nothing can save them.

Because the rule book ACTUALLY says that it does not.

Hades wrote:No SA never states that nothing can prevent them from being removed, it says no save or special rule can save them at this stage. removed=layed on their side for a necron model.

Okay I'm going to go through this extremely slowly for you to make sure you can keep up.

WBB is a special rule.

WBB generally prevents models from being removed as casualties and instead lays them on their side.

This means that WBB will directly conflict with any other rule that tells you to remove models. That means it "rescues" them by being removed by those rules that would otherwise remove them. With me so far?

When a unit is caught by an SA, they are "destroyed and removed immediately. Unless specified differently, no save or special rule can rescue them at this stage, for them the battle is over".

WBB wants to rescue them from being removed by instead laying them on their side. However, SA says that a special rule cannot rescue them at this stage unless is specifically tells you differently (as in says specifically that the special rule trumps SA).

WBB is unable to use its replacement effect because it does not have a clause to override SA.

Therefore, WBB does not work against SA.

If you can't follow that, then you are just trying to interpret the rules to achieve your own result. The rules are crystal clear here.

Yes please stop confusing "Saving" and "Removing" They are nowhere near the same terms.

Dracos wrote:If you can't follow that, then you are just trying to interpret the rules to achieve your own result. The rules are crystal clear here.

I would use much more colourful language.

Again, sorry, I'm hung up on the "Any Time" especially with the Codex>BRB...

Hades wrote:Yes please stop confusing "Saving" and "Removing" They are nowhere near the same terms.

No, you stop not reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eight Ball wrote:Again, sorry, I'm hung up on the "Any Time" especially with the Codex>BRB...

Are you deliberately being Dense? The rules for Sweeping advance say that SA overrides the codex, unless the codex says specifically otherwise.

Codex > BRB is a flawed argument.

Specific > General is the better reading.

SA demands a SPECIFIC exception.

None is written in WBB

Gwar! wrote:

Hades wrote:Yes please stop confusing "Saving" and "Removing" They are nowhere near the same terms.

No, you stop not reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eight Ball wrote:Again, sorry, I'm hung up on the "Any Time" especially with the Codex>BRB...

Are you deliberately being idiotic? The rules for Sweeping advance say that SA overrides the codex, unless the codex says specifically otherwise.

Dude look. SA says that nothing can SAVE them. You are technically removing the models. You are performing the same action because necron models are laid on their side and not removed. They are DEAD. Whether or not they are removed or laid on their side for that stage they are DEAD NECRONS. WBB saves them at a later stage.

It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

P.S. Dude is Still Dead in 1994

Please keep in mind that the Codex says

Anytime they are removed AS A CASUALTY

Removing that part of the text will very much limit your arguments, as (i stated this before) models removed from the table via SA doesn't state they are removed as casualties.

Gwar! wrote:P.S. Dude is Still Dead in 1994

I bloody resurrected it with WBB

Harkainos wrote:Please keep in mind that the Codex says

Anytime they are removed AS A CASUALTY

Removing that part of the text will very much limit your arguments, as (i stated this before) models removed from the table via SA doesn't state they are removed as casualties.

Le gasp! Selective Quoting by the side that is wrong?

I'd never expect that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hades wrote:P.S. Dude is Still Dead in 1994

I bloody resurrected it with WBB

Nope, I Sweeping Advanced it, sorry.

Hades wrote:Dude look. SA says that nothing can SAVE them. You are technically removing the models. You are performing the same action because necron models are laid on their side and not removed. They are DEAD. Whether or not they are removed or laid on their side for that stage they are DEAD NECRONS. WBB saves them at a later stage.

Wow this is the most ridiculous claim yet. Now, you are not removing them if you lay them on their side instead.If the wording just said they were destroyed, you might have more of a leg to stand on. But the SA rule state to remove the models immediately, and that no special rule can rescue them from being removed (it uses the word rescue, not save fyi).

WBB offers a replacement effect to removing models, it is NOT the SAME as removing them.

In fact, you are rescuing them from being removed immediately if you lay them on their side.

Gwar! wrote:It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

If you're gonna use that argument, Casualties also says ""(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" so I guess you can't take WBB after getting shot down by bolters

Hades wrote:Yes please stop confusing "Saving" and "Removing" They are nowhere near the same terms.

OK, what would saving them be in your mind? Jesus Christ manifesting on the table and absolving their sins?
SA says remove them immediately. Yes?
So, any time you do not remove them immediately, you are saving them from SA. Right? Please say I'm right on this point, because if you don't then there is absolutely nothing that will make you see how the rule actually works and there is a somewhat more intelligent rock on my lawn that I could be arguing with instead.

Gwar! wrote:

Harkainos wrote:Please keep in mind that the Codex says

Anytime they are removed AS A CASUALTY

Removing that part of the text will very much limit your arguments, as (i stated this before) models removed from the table via SA doesn't state they are removed as casualties.

Le gasp! Selective Quoting by the side that is wrong?

I'd never expect that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hades wrote:P.S. Dude is Still Dead in 1994

I bloody resurrected it with WBB

Nope, I Sweeping Advanced it, sorry.

I'm against WBB from SA.... was the selective 'quoting' incorrect. I am not reading the dex right now, as I am at work.

Eight Ball wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

If you're gonna use that argument, Casualties also says ""(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" so I guess you can't take WBB after getting shot down by bolters

Yes, but WBB works against Bolter Rounds. it doesn;t work against SA. See the difference yet?

Yeah, what part is the selective quoting, that IS the rule "A Necron that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, is laid on it's side to show it's damaged..."

EDIT: Gwar, based on what you posted above, you wouldn't get WBB from bolters, because "(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle"

Eight Ball wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It also says "For them the battle is over". Letting them Take WBB is breaking that rule.

If you're gonna use that argument, Casualties also says ""(casualties) are no longer fit to participate in the battle" so I guess you can't take WBB after getting shot down by bolters

This just shows that you do not have a firm grasp of interpreting the rules.

Specific over general. Those are the general rules for casualties. They apply unless there is a more specific rule

I've posted this EXACT POST already, so re-read the thread.

Generally, when models are casualties they are no longer fit to participate in battle.

More specifically, when a necron model is a casualty it can still repair itself via a SPECIAL RULE.