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Gwar wrote:There is a rule saying they Join the unit and cannot leave, but this is not the same as being part of the unit.

I disagree. Think about the implications of what you're arguing. If the wolf guard is not part of that unit, it does not have to maintain coherency with the models in the unit, and the wolf guard can be singled out for shooting. In short, if it's not part of the unit it joins, the only alternative for the wolf guard model is that it be treated as a separate unit with some sort of loose but undefined association with the pack it joins, which is clearly a violation of the wolf guard's rules. There is simply no provision for joining a unit or group of models but not being part of that unit. The rules indicate that models which are "grouped together" are "units". See BGB p. 3. So yes, joining a unit before the game and being unable to leave makes the model a part of that unit. The opposite interpretation, in my opinion, is absurd.

Gwar wrote:If I join a Group of Nuns on a Bus, do I become a member of the Nuns and get all their funky special rules?

If you're not an independent character, and you join the nuns before they even get on the bus (which you could only do if either you were already a nun or a special rule told you you could) and you can't ever leave the nuns, then yes, you're a nun. As above, the alternative interpretation is nunsense. Ha!

Interestingly enough: "Join ... v, 1. To put or bring together so as to make continuous or form a unit" American Heritage Dictionary, 4th Edition (2009). Yes I understand that the word "unit" is a term of art specific to the game of 40k, I just find it interesting that the first definition actually used the very word we're arguing about.

Gwar, while having the minority opinion does not necessarily make one wrong, in this case it seems as though you're fighting not only against popular opinion, but also against the rules and the english language.

I believe an amendment to your FAQ would be in order.

-GK

GiantKiller wrote:but also against the rules and the english language.

And this is where we must agree to disagree, because I do not believe that I am.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But let's be clear on what we're disagreeing about.

Do you contest this assertion from my above post:

GiantKiller wrote:If the wolf guard is not part of that unit, it does not have to maintain coherency with the models in the unit, and the wolf guard can be singled out for shooting.

If so, please explain.

If not, that might be helpful information to add to your FAQ so that people playing by your FAQ are doing so correctly.

-GK

GiantKiller wrote:If not, that might be helpful information to add to your FAQ so that people playing by your FAQ are doing so correctly.

Your tone is starting to get a little off. Please calm down.

As for your assertion, no, he is not part of the Wolf Scouts, because he is not a Wolf Scout. He is however, using a special rule that allows him to be joined to that unit and may not leave. Joined has a very specific meaning in 40k, covered in the Character Section of the Rulebook. While he does not have the IC rule, he follows the rules for being joined to a unit (because that is what he is) with the exception that he may not leave. He may act as if part of that unit, but he is not. Subsequently, when you deploy, you find that this model does not have the Infiltrate nor the Scouts Special Rules, thus cannot outflank.

Gwar! wrote:

GiantKiller wrote:If not, that might be helpful information to add to your FAQ so that people playing by your FAQ are doing so correctly.

Your tone is starting to get a little off. Please calm down..

Gwar! You makeing mountains out of molehills. Please calm down.

And for the last time cause its already been pointed out a few times....

You CANT be part of a unit and not be part of the unit at the same time like your saying.

If I take a cook from Alpha Company and attach him to a line Infantry unit from Delta Company, he is considered to be part of Delta Company... Not Alpha.

Gwar! wrote:Your tone is starting to get a little off. Please calm down.

I'm confused as to what tone you're picking up from my text. No sarcasm or jab at your FAQ was intended, if that's what you're getting at. If you don't expect people to make use of your FAQ, why go to the trouble to create one? And if you think people might want more clarification, why not add it? Personally, I like your FAQ, I think you have a lot of correct answers, and it even won its first appeal on my site. So please don't take any of this as an attack on you. I certainly have no intention of derailing this thread into a thread about your FAQ, I mention it only because you referenced your FAQ in this thread.

Gwar! wrote:As for your assertion, no, he is not part of the Wolf Scouts, because he is not a Wolf Scout. He is however, using a special rule that allows him to be joined to that unit and may not leave. Joined has a very specific meaning in 40k, covered in the Character Section of the Rulebook. While he does not have the IC rule, he follows the rules for being joined to a unit (because that is what he is) with the exception that he may not leave. He may act as if part of that unit, but he is not. Subsequently, when you deploy, you find that this model does not have the Infiltrate nor the Scouts Special Rules, thus cannot outflank.

If we're using the rules for characters as precedent, how do you get around the many references in the characters section to the "joined" character being a part of that unit? See BGB p. 47-49. We know he (the wolf guard) is not an independent character, so the independent character rules for conferring and removing special rules don't apply. It sounds as though you're arguing "he's part of the unit for every purpose (movement, shooting, etc.) except the one where I don't want him to be (getting the unit's special rules)". I don't think such an argument holds water.

-GK

The poll shows that the majority believe the WGL and Wolf Scouts keep all their special rules.

I havent joined in on this discussion before because I am STILL stuck without a copy of the new codex. But from reading everyone else's posts it would seem to come down to a matter of exact wording. The one real weakness of having a FLGS instead of being near a GW store.

Willy has said that the wolfguard is counts as an upgrade character for that unit. That would require him to actually be a part of the unit, would it not? The only rules that we have for any model to join a unit and not become a part of the unit would be for ICs, and we know the wolfguard isnt an IC. Unless there is some other bit of wording in the codex it would seem to make him part of the unit.


Sliggoth

Do ork Kommandos lose infiltrate when they take a nob for an upgrade character? If so, then maybe so would the SW.

Sliggoth wrote: I havent joined in on this discussion before because I am STILL stuck without a copy of the new codex. But from reading everyone else's posts it would seem to come down to a matter of exact wording. The one real weakness of having a FLGS instead of being near a GW store.

Willy has said that the wolfguard is counts as an upgrade character for that unit. That would require him to actually be a part of the unit, would it not? The only rules that we have for any model to join a unit and not become a part of the unit would be for ICs, and we know the wolfguard isnt an IC. Unless there is some other bit of wording in the codex it would seem to make him part of the unit.


Sliggoth

And yay did the most benevolent Lord Gawr! arise from the fiery pits of Hades to deliver to his most loyal followers:

"Before the battle, each Wolf Guard has the option of being split off from his pack and assigned to lead a different pack from the following list: Blah, blah, blah, Wolf Scouts, Blah. Only one Wolf Guard may join each pack in this manner. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine Bikes may not join Wolf Scouts units."

Emphasis mine ;D

Gwar wrote:And yay did the most benevolent Lord Gawr! arise from the fiery pits of Hades to deliver to his most loyal followers

And lo, the codex-less gave many thanks to the benevolent trolle.

Any chance you could also quote the behind enemy lines rule? It's very possible that its wording might shed some light on the situation.

-GK

GiantKiller wrote:

Gwar wrote:And yay did the most benevolent Lord Gawr! arise from the fiery pits of Hades to deliver to his most loyal followers

And lo, the codex-less gave many thanks to the benevolent trolle.

Any chance you could also quote the behind enemy lines rule? It's very possible that its wording might shed some light on the situation.

-GK

And so the Great Lord Gwar! doth Smite the Heretics with his Sword and then go off with his new wife with the huge... tracts of Land!

"Behind Enemy Lines: If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be deployed. On the roll of 1 the Wolf Scout unit enters play from the short table edge to the owning player's left, on a 2 they enter play from the short table edge to the owning player's right, and on a 3-6 they may enter play from any table edge the Space Wolf Player wishes. This may even be his opponent's table edge."

Verbatim, down to Punctuation ;D

On a totally unrelated note, I was asked via PM "Can I walk over to the other side of the table after rolling so they come out on that "left" side." Obviously I said No, but I am worried this might actually be a bigger problem. I am considering adding it to the FAQ but even I have some sort of idiocy level

I'm still confused here.


The ability to Outflank is given to any unit/model with the Scout or Infiltrate USR. The exception, is that if an IC joins said unit, it then loses this ability per the BGB. Where does it mention anything about losing the ability for anything else joining the unit?


This is the exact same thing as the Vendetta, where it tells you who CAN use the Outflank rule, and while I agree that it certainly does not exclude the passengers in the wording, I fail to see a difference here.


The Scouts have a special rule, it takes effect when they attempt to use their Scout/Infiltrate skills to use the Outflank ability.

Again, in the BGB, these skills are LOST when joined by an IC that does not have them, so in this case, they would NOT be able to Outflank. However, the WG is certainly not an IC, and in the unit description, it even tells you that the Wolf Guard Battle Leader is the only one to have the IC designation. Seems pretty clear, I guess I'm not as confused as I thought I was.


Clay

The problem is that GW has never told us what happens when a non-IC joins a unit.

My view is that the new model counts as part of the Unit for all intents and purposes - they gain special rules of the Unit (unless it's stated otherwise, like Berserk Charge), they count as coming from that force org section (even though their original pack may have been in a different section). If assigned to GHs or BCs, they can hold objective - since they count as Troops. etc.

The other view is that they're more akin to an IC joining the unit. They keep Elite (or Troop in a Logan army) status, regardless of which Unit they have joined, so they may not claim objectives (unless Logan is in the army, and then they can, even if assigned to a FA, Elite, or Heavy unit). The Unit loses special rules (if appropriate) if an IC joins the unit.

I think that first view is cleaner and simpler. And, I think it's more likely consistent with any future ruling that GW might give (and I'm sure they will, since they seem happy to ignore stuff). YMMV.

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote: I havent joined in on this discussion before because I am STILL stuck without a copy of the new codex. But from reading everyone else's posts it would seem to come down to a matter of exact wording. The one real weakness of having a FLGS instead of being near a GW store.

Willy has said that the wolfguard is counts as an upgrade character for that unit. That would require him to actually be a part of the unit, would it not? The only rules that we have for any model to join a unit and not become a part of the unit would be for ICs, and we know the wolfguard isnt an IC. Unless there is some other bit of wording in the codex it would seem to make him part of the unit.


Sliggoth

And yay did the most benevolent Lord Gawr! arise from the fiery pits of Hades to deliver to his most loyal followers:

"Before the battle, each Wolf Guard has the option of being split off from his pack and assigned to lead a different pack from the following list: Blah, blah, blah, Wolf Scouts, Blah. Only one Wolf Guard may join each pack in this manner. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine Bikes may not join Wolf Scouts units."

Emphasis mine ;D

Gwar! wrote:

GiantKiller wrote:

Gwar wrote:And yay did the most benevolent Lord Gawr! arise from the fiery pits of Hades to deliver to his most loyal followers

And lo, the codex-less gave many thanks to the benevolent trolle.

Any chance you could also quote the behind enemy lines rule? It's very possible that its wording might shed some light on the situation.

-GK

And so the Great Lord Gwar! doth Smite the Heretics with his Sword and then go off with his new wife with the huge... tracts of Land!

"Behind Enemy Lines: If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be deployed. On the roll of 1 the Wolf Scout unit enters play from the short table edge to the owning player's left, on a 2 they enter play from the short table edge to the owning player's right, and on a 3-6 they may enter play from any table edge the Space Wolf Player wishes. This may even be his opponent's table edge."

Verbatim, down to Punctuation ;D

On a totally unrelated note, I was asked via PM "Can I walk over to the other side of the table after rolling so they come out on that "left" side." Obviously I said No, but I am worried this might actually be a bigger problem. I am considering adding it to the FAQ but even I have some sort of idiocy level

dietrich wrote:The problem is that GW has never told us what happens when a non-IC joins a unit.

Not true. Current the Wolf Scouts can OBEL with a WGL attached. It's nothing new and is a very good precedence.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:

dietrich wrote:The problem is that GW has never told us what happens when a non-IC joins a unit.

Not true. Current the Wolf Scouts can OBEL with a WGL attached. It's nothing new and is a very good precedence.

My Grey Hunters also used to be Able to go 12" in a Rhino, disembark, fire and then assault. Precedent does not mean anything. They used to, now they can't. Live with it IMO.

Third Edition Codex has no bearing on how the shiny new Fifth Edition Codex functions.

There's no section in the Big Tome that says, "If a non-Independent character joins a unit, the unit retains/loses any USRs and/or abilities."

I don't have a physical hardcopy of the new SW Codex, but from looking at the one at FLGS, I don't see where it is addressed either.

I think the 'cleanest' solution is that the WG model now counts as part of the Unit he joins, becoming a model from that FOC, and the WG gains all the special abilities of the unit (unless otherwise stated).

Is it just me or is everyone completly ignoring what I have presented?

Wolf Guard join the pack, pack is synonymus with unit.

when a model joins a unit they are part of the unit.

The space wolf codex says all models in a unit gain the special rules listed in the codex entry.

Gwar! wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:

dietrich wrote:The problem is that GW has never told us what happens when a non-IC joins a unit.

Not true. Current the Wolf Scouts can OBEL with a WGL attached. It's nothing new and is a very good precedence.

My Grey Hunters also used to be Able to go 12" in a Rhino, disembark, fire and then assault. Precedent does not mean anything. They used to, now they can't. Live with it IMO.

What you are saying is very misleading. Your example is from early third edition, around a decade back while my example is still currently in play. That is where I think you can stand to grow... don't mislead people and don't get upset when you lose an argument. Your audience will grow leaps and bounds if you can do these things well. : )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Demogerg wrote:Is it just me or is everyone completly ignoring what I have presented?

Wolf Guard join the pack, pack is synonymus with unit.

when a model joins a unit they are part of the unit.

The space wolf codex says all models in a unit gain the special rules listed in the codex entry.

I am completely with you.

Demogerg wrote:Is it just me or is everyone completly ignoring what I have presented?

Wolf Guard join the pack, pack is synonymus with unit.

when a model joins a unit they are part of the unit.

The space wolf codex says all models in a unit gain the special rules listed in the codex entry.

I agree with you. I can see the counter arguement that 'nowhere does it say what happens when a non-IC joins a unit', but I think it's wrong. The codex says he joins the Unit. The BC entries make it very clear what happens when you add a WG to the unit. No other unit has any exception for having a WG join the unit.

Demogerg, I think the only one of those points being disputed (not by me) is "when a model joins a unit they are part of the unit." I've argued that this point is backed up by the definition of unit on BGB p. 3 as well as the rules for characters on BGB pp. 47-49. I've argued that the contrary interpretation would violate many fundamental rules such as movement and shooting which assume that every model in a unit is part of that unit.

And I've essentially been told that unless I'm willing to accept that the Wolf Guard is considered part of the unit for some purposes but not others, I'll just have to agree to disagree.

So I agree to disagree.

-GK

Demogerg wrote:Is it just me or is everyone completly ignoring what I have presented?

Wolf Guard join the pack, pack is synonymus with unit.

when a model joins a unit they are part of the unit.

The space wolf codex says all models in a unit gain the special rules listed in the codex entry.

Im with you on this one. Call me crazy, but this seems pretty plain as day.

- Edited due to improper tone -