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The wolfguard that split off and join other groups (which are specified units) are never referred to as Independent characters nor does it mention they gain any additional rules.

Only the inclusion of Independent characters to squads with certain USR's cause the various USR's to become void.

What do we do?

RAW any special rules with the * will remain. If that USR effects the unit then it will effect the joined wolf-guard.

Tri wrote:RAW any special rules with the * will remain. If that USR effects the unit then it will effect the joined wolf-guard.

Okay - why? Have I missed a critical piece of wording that can actually apply to the non-IC wolfieguard joining another squad thing?

USR with an (*) are only lost if the unit is joined by an IC (or by IC if he's joined to a unit without the rule). If the unit is joined by an upgrade character then the rule never kicks in and they keep the USR. Intended? can't say, we'll know in about 3 weeks when the errata is published.

It will only keep working mind, if the USR says that the unit is able to X.

Does so far. Although not for the "Scouts"/"Scout" USR/Rule the Wolfie scouts have.

I mean, it refers to "scouts" compared to "units with..etc" which could simply be a way of being more concise.

But in terms of infiltrating, outflanking and "Behind enemy lines" it does apply to what you said Tri.

What about the Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Saga of the Hunter? It give the IC the ability to scout - when held in reserve he could join the scout unit, does the unit come on using the deployment of the scouts (i.e. on a 3+ they all come on the opponents table edge)?

He is somthing entirely different, an Independent Character.

The "behind enemy lines" is specific to only the the wolfie scouts & while as per the rules a SotH HQ could join a scout squad kept in reserves it may interfere with the implementation of their own of specific rule as the IC doesn't have it himself. The key wording is "..a Wolf Scout Unit..." so you can draw what-ever conclusions from that.

Of course this is conjecture as the wolfie-scout rule isn't a USR & of course is totally different to what I wanted to resolve with the Wolf Guard.

Ok, I am gonna put my reasoning here, and also link the Unofficial Codex: Space Wolves v27092009 I just finished writing.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion blah blah you get the bloody idea:

SW.27.02 – Q: Can a Wolf Scout unit with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader assigned Infiltrate, make a Scout move, Outflank or use "Behind Enemy Lines"?

Spoiler:

A: No. Although the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is a member of the unit, he does not have the Infiltrate or Scout Universal Special Rules, meaning he (and subsequently the unit he is part of) may not be deployed as an Infiltrator, make a scout move, or Outflank. [R.a.W]

Gwar! wrote:Ok, I am gonna put my reasoning here, and also link the Unofficial Codex: Space Wolves v27092009 I just finished writing.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion blah blah you get the bloody idea:

SW.27.02 – Q: Can a Wolf Scout unit with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader assigned Infiltrate, make a Scout move, Outflank or use "Behind Enemy Lines"?

Spoiler:

A: No. Although the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is a member of the unit, he does not have the Infiltrate or Scout Universal Special Rules, meaning he (and subsequently the unit he is part of) may not be deployed as an Infiltrator, make a scout move, or Outflank. [R.a.W]

but but gwar don't you mean Rai ... Raw the unit keeps it .... Rai the unit lose it... oh no we've lost gwar he no longer believes in RAW

I never said the Scouts lose it. The scouts keep it. La de da. The Wolf Guard Leader does not have either rule though, nor does he have it conferred into him from anywhere, so outflanking/infiltrating that unit is breaking the rules.

Gwar! wrote:I never said the Scouts lose it. The scouts keep it. La de da. The Wolf Guard Leader does not have either rule though, nor does he have it conferred into him from anywhere, so outflanking/infiltrating that unit is breaking the rules.

So you'd think but ...

Infiltrate " ...units with this special rule are deployed last ...."
Scout - talks about models with it so you can't uses it to move the unit but "If a unit with this ability is deployed in a dedicated transport, it is confers the scout to the transport" ... so still useful
Out Flank "...units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules may attempt to outflank the enemy"

Behind Enemy Lines is a SW rule which i don't have access to at the moment.

... so as you can see they do have a RAW effect.

Tri wrote:Infiltrate " ...units with this special rule are deployed last ...."

The Scouts in the unit have the rule, not the entire unit, thus the rule cannot apply.

Scout - talks about models with it so you can't uses it to move the unit but "If a unit with this ability is deployed in a dedicated transport, it is confers the scout to the transport" ... so still useful

Again, the Scouts have it, not the unit.

Out Flank "...units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules may attempt to outflank the enemy"

Scouts have the rules, not the unit as a whole.

Behind Enemy Lines is a SW rule which i don't have access to at the moment.

It is just outflank using a different table to determine what edge you come from.

Neither The codex nor the rulebook mention upgrade characters getting the USRs of the unit they are in automatically, so they do not. It does not say the Wolf Guard CAN infiltrate, so he cannot.

Simple!

Gwar! wrote:
Neither The codex nor the rulebook mention upgrade characters getting the USRs of the unit they are in automatically, so they do not. It does not say the Wolf Guard CAN infiltrate, so he cannot.

Simple!

Meh ... they don't need it the unit needs it if the unit has a section called special rules and then a list; then that what the unit has. Does the wolf guard? no, but the unit does and that's all USR needs (apart from scout that only works on a transported unit)

How can the unit have a USR if not every member has that USR?

I wish I had the exact wording for how a Wolf Guard joins a unit. Fluffwise (I know, I know) the Wolf Guard is their sargeant, and so they'd probably assign the Wolf Guards with experience as scouts to the Wolf scout units, and the ones who like close combat to Blood Claw units, etc. etc. So the WG would just be a more experienced scout and would pick up their rules, as part of their unit.

RAW... Can I get a straight wording on how a WG joins other units?

Orkestra wrote:I wish I had the exact wording for how a Wolf Guard joins a unit. Fluffwise (I know, I know) the Wolf Guard is their sargeant, and so they'd probably assign the Wolf Guards with experience as scouts to the Wolf scout units, and the ones who like close combat to Blood Claw units, etc. etc. So the WG would just be a more experienced scout and would pick up their rules, as part of their unit.

RAW... Can I get a straight wording on how a WG joins other units?

Gawd, aren't FAQs enough for you people!

"Before the battle, each Wolf Guard has the option of being split off from his pack and assigned to lead a different pack from the following list: Blah, blah, blah, Wolf Scouts, Blah. Only one Wolf Guard may join each pack in this manner. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine Bikes may not join Wolf Scouts units."

Huh, very interesting, and telling me absolutely nothing.

I think that I'll play it that they can use their scouty special rules. Though, as I'm not a wolf player, I won't complain if someone thinks they can't. No sense spending valuable game time telling my opponent to put a sargeant in that squad and redo his list during deployment.

Orkestra wrote:Huh, very interesting, and telling me absolutely nothing.

I think that I'll play it that they can use their scouty special rules. Though, as I'm not a wolf player, I won't complain if someone thinks they can't. No sense spending valuable game time telling my opponent to put a sargeant in that squad and redo his list during deployment.

You mean the deployment where for 400 Points we can prevent you infiltrating anywhere except where we want you and then able to have a 93.75% Chance of negating any Psychic power you can throw at us?

Gwar! wrote:How can the unit have a USR if not every member has that USR?

Well lets think about that if he is an upgrade character (he is) then he counts as part of the unit in every respect. If the unit has the special rule X then he to has that skill. I shall have to track down my copy before i can continue this but if i recall correctly at the back in the army list the scouts (unit) has special rules scout, infiltrate, and by having those outflank as well.

Gwar! wrote:

Orkestra wrote:I wish I had the exact wording for how a Wolf Guard joins a unit. Fluffwise (I know, I know) the Wolf Guard is their sargeant, and so they'd probably assign the Wolf Guards with experience as scouts to the Wolf scout units, and the ones who like close combat to Blood Claw units, etc. etc. So the WG would just be a more experienced scout and would pick up their rules, as part of their unit.

RAW... Can I get a straight wording on how a WG joins other units?

Gawd, aren't FAQs enough for you people!

"Before the battle, each Wolf Guard has the option of being split off from his pack and assigned to lead a different pack from the following list: Blah, blah, blah, Wolf Scouts, Blah. Only one Wolf Guard may join each pack in this manner. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine Bikes may not join Wolf Scouts units."

In the prior codex WG could join a scout unit and use its special deployment rule so long as the WG was only wearing power armor and did not take a bike or jumppack. As the rule book states that special rules are only lost by a unit when an IC without the rule joins that unit, WG who are not ICs do not cause the unit to lose the rule, and as a part of that unit benefit from it.

Durandal wrote:In the prior codex WG could join a scout unit and use its special deployment rule so long as the WG was only wearing power armor and did not take a bike or jumppack. As the rule book states that special rules are only lost by a unit when an IC without the rule joins that unit, WG who are not ICs do not cause the unit to lose the rule, and as a part of that unit benefit from it.

Ok, a number of issues here.

Firstly, there was no such restriction in the old codex.
Secondly, I never said the Space Wolf Scouts lose the rules. They don't. What I am saying is the Wolf Guard Model does NOT Have those rules, nor do the rules for Space Wolf Scouts say "Attached Characters get these rules." Nothing says the Wolf Guard Model can Infiltrate or Outflank, so he cannot.

Gwar! wrote:

Durandal wrote:In the prior codex WG could join a scout unit and use its special deployment rule so long as the WG was only wearing power armor and did not take a bike or jumppack. As the rule book states that special rules are only lost by a unit when an IC without the rule joins that unit, WG who are not ICs do not cause the unit to lose the rule, and as a part of that unit benefit from it.

Ok, a number of issues here.

Firstly, there was no such restriction in the old codex.
Secondly, I never said the SCOUTS lose the rules. They don't. What I am saying is the Wolf Guard Model does NOT Have those rules, not do the rules for Space Wolf Scouts say "Attached Characters get these rules." Nothing says the Wolf Guard Model can Infiltrate or Outflank, so he cannot.

Gwar the rule doesn't care about that. If any one has the rule then the unit has the rule. If the unit has it then rule kicks in (apart from scout which only half works)

Tri wrote:Gwar the rule doesn't care about that. If any one has the rule then the unit has the rule. If the unit has it then rule kicks in (apart from scout which only half works)

Where does it say "If one model has the rule then the whole unit benefits from it"?

The only thing that stops the "unit" from loosing the rule is (P.74 BGB);

1) The addition of an Independent character (P.47 BGB)

2) The addition of a flamer (e.g P.68 IG codex 5th edition)

3) The addition of another model to the unit

4) TFG. Possibly Me

... The choice is yooours!

Edit: I shall follow from the idea of > A unit has a rule because it is listed with a rule. If a model if within a group of models, it is apart of that unit. That unit has what-ever special rules. The only way to loose a USR* is 1-4.

Gah you are not listening. The unit does not lose the rule. It keeps the rule. What happens is the Wolf Guard Model DOES NOT HAVE THE RULE, so he cannot use it. Because he cannot use it, the squad he is Attached sits about looking like idiots.

By Deploying a wolf Guard model as an Infiltrator while not having the infiltrate rule is breaking the rules.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:Gwar the rule doesn't care about that. If any one has the rule then the unit has the rule. If the unit has it then rule kicks in (apart from scout which only half works)

Where does it say "If one model has the rule then the whole unit benefits from it"?

An interesting point of view to be true. Thankfully not one I have to attempt to answer. (very much a case of not being said ether way.)

(Well since i haven't set out yet to retrieve my codex we're going to have to proxy SM). On Page 134 Scout Squads are listed. The squad has special rules, ATSKNF, CS, CT, infiltrate, move through cover, scouts. Now i am 95% certain that its listed the same in codex space wolves (with the SW rules as well), so the unit has it not the models. If the unit has X, Y and Z and is has another model add the unit still has those rules. If those rules allow the unit to do something then they still can.

Exactly.

The Wolfguard model does not have scouts/infiltrator/etc.. When the wolfguard model joins the Wolf Scout unit he and the other scouts are now all the Wolf Scout unit. He gets to use these new rules as he is apart of the unit. Because this is what the rules tell us. Units & big-love.

I have to disagree with that

-Shrug-

I wonder how people would feel if the situation were reversed?

I had a model with infiltrate/scout (that is not an IC), but could join a unit as a 'battle leader' that did not have either USR.

Would the unit now be allowed to use the USR?

imweasel wrote:I wonder how people would feel if the situation were reversed?

I had a model with infiltrate/scout (that is not an IC), but could join a unit as a 'battle leader' that did not have either USR.

Would the unit now be allowed to use the USR?

You mean like stealth and Telion?