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Have I missed something? I was under the assumption that vendettas are strictly a non dedicated transport.

Eternal Newb wrote:

Primarch wrote:
Again, for maybe the tenth time, why are we talking about Drop Pods again? Drop Pods are not Vendettas. 2 Different vehicles, with 2 different rules sets. If you want to argue the ability for a Drop Pod to Deep strike with a unit inside, start a new thread discussing it. The RAI for a Drop Pod is obvious.

The Vendetta, not so much.

Because, dedicated transports allow them to. I.E why Tactical Marines can Deep Strike with a Drop Pod and why Vets can Outflank in a Vendetta.

Oh, does your IG codex have Vendettas as a Dedicated Transport for IG vets? If so, then you got a Rare copy, mine doesn't list those at all. In fact, it only lists Chimeras as dedicated transports for the IG Vet squads.....



Clay

De-railed thread is de-railed.

Primarch wrote:

Eternal Newb wrote:

Primarch wrote:
Again, for maybe the tenth time, why are we talking about Drop Pods again? Drop Pods are not Vendettas. 2 Different vehicles, with 2 different rules sets. If you want to argue the ability for a Drop Pod to Deep strike with a unit inside, start a new thread discussing it. The RAI for a Drop Pod is obvious.

The Vendetta, not so much.

Because, dedicated transports allow them to. I.E why Tactical Marines can Deep Strike with a Drop Pod and why Vets can Outflank in a Vendetta.

Oh, does your IG codex have Vendettas as a Dedicated Transport for IG vets? If so, then you got a Rare copy, mine doesn't list those at all. In fact, it only lists Chimeras as dedicated transports for the IG Vet squads.....



Clay

I'm sorry, I blanked out that Vendettas aren't Dedicated Transports. Calm down.

Couple of things. Sorry for de-railing the topic, it just seemed weird to me to read these inconsistencies.


Secondly, I am calm, we are discussing a game and it's rules, hardly enough for me to be other than calm.



Clay

kirsanth wrote:
A unit containing models with different rules sets must abide by both, the most restrictive of each. (i.e. Broodlord loses Fleet with GS, Marines can DS in a drop pod, IG can outflank in a Valk)

page 81 of the Space Wolf Codex:
"Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to the models in the unit are listed here..."

A Wolf Guard joins the unit of Wolf Scouts, he gains their special rules listed on page 88.

"Special Rules... Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Scout, Behind Enemy Lines"

The only exception to this is listed in the BRB Under Universal Special Rules:

"The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independent character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same speical rule."

Wolf Guard models are not a Independent Characters, and it satisfies all rules to allow them to Outflank with Wolf Scouts and use the special rule "Behind Enemy Lines"

The wolf Guard is not a member of the Scout unit. He is Joined to the unit and cannot leave. Big Difference.

Gwar! wrote:The wolf Guard is not a member of the Scout unit. He is Joined to the unit and cannot leave. Big Difference.

so he can shoot at different targets, does not grant his leadership bonus, can charge at a different target and does not need to stay within coherency because he is a different unit?

Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The wolf Guard is not a member of the Scout unit. He is Joined to the unit and cannot leave. Big Difference.

so he can shoot at different targets, does not grant his leadership bonus, can charge at a different target and does not need to stay within coherency because he is a different unit?

No, he is joined to the unit, so acts as if he was part of the unit. He is NOT part of the unit, because he is not a Space Wolf Scout.

As has been said, there is not enough information to make a definitive rules that will convince both sides.

Razerous wrote:What have I started!

The wolfguard team-leaders splitting off from their own squads & joining others presents an entirely unique situation as those wolfguard behave like IC yet never is it mentioned that they gain the rule nor does it even suggest as possible problems/solutions to the many conflicts this causes.

There for it is totally up for debate but at the end of the day there is simply a void in the information needed to clarify the issue.

Yup. I repeat.

Lack of information on a totally new issue. Pointless to debate it over.

People are making a molehill out of a mountain.

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The wolf Guard is not a member of the Scout unit. He is Joined to the unit and cannot leave. Big Difference.

so he can shoot at different targets, does not grant his leadership bonus, can charge at a different target and does not need to stay within coherency because he is a different unit?

No, he is joined to the unit, so acts as if he was part of the unit. He is NOT part of the unit, because he is not a Space Wolf Scout.

As has been said, there is not enough information to make a definitive rules that will convince both sides.

There is nothing that supports that side of the argument that he acts as is he was part of the unit vs actually being part of the unit (or leading the unit, as is the case)

on page 47:
"Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from the beginning of the game, representing a squad leader or unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in the unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices."

so lets recap on the upgrade characters section....

Fielded as part of [the unit] from the beginning of the game

Check

represents a squad leader or unit champion

Check- this is fluff, but it is part of the text

no entry of their own

Check- he is no longer part of the original Wolf Guard 3-10 unit, thus has no entry

just another trooper in the unit

Check- by my interpretation

enhanced characteristics

Check- +1 Ld, +1 A, and a better save

wider selection of weapons and wargear choices

Check

I think there is enough information, on Page 3 of the BRB:
"Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections, or similarly named groups [Packs]... In Warhammer 40,000 we represent this by grouping models together into units... A unit will usually consist of several models that fight together as a group"

There is no way a model can act as a part of a unit and not be part of the unit.

Even Independent Characters that join units become part of the unit, they just have special rules that allow them to be "independent"

In this case the Wolf Guard model joins a group of warriors, fights alongside them and leads them, he is part of the unit.

that unit has special rules

our codex specifically says that models in that unit gain those special rules.






There is no logical disagreement between the rules written, there is only a disagreement of opinion based on the lack of the word "unit" on page 86 of the space wolf codex, the lack of this word is irrelevant however, because it does say that he joins the pack, and pack is a specific type of unit found in the Space Wolf Codex.

Gwar! wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Of course it is a seperate unit. It has its own rules, profile etc.

That's a slippery slope there gwar.

If that is truly the case, then if a wg joins ANY unit, then that unit cannot embark on a transport with the wg.

Also, it would create havoc in KP missions. Does each WG separately assigned to different units constitute an additional KP, or do you have to kill each and every WG model, divided up amongst several squads, before you can get the KP for the WG?

From my FAQ: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/258582.page

SW.86.14 – Q: How are Kill Points calculated for Wolf Guard Packs who have had models moved to lead other units?
A: A Kill Point is awarded once all the models remaining in the Wolf Guard Pack have been slain. Models that have
been assigned to other units as Wolf Guard Pack Leaders do not have to be slain. Should there be no Models left in the
Wolf Guard Pack before the battle begins it does not award a Kill Point – Kill Points cannot be awarded for things that
don't exist!. [Clarification]

SW.86.15 – Q: How are Kill Points awarded for units that have been joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader?
A: The whole unit, including the Pack Leader, must be slain. This awards one Kill Point. [Clarification]

Yes, I suppose "Own unit" was not a good way of putting it, but it is still not part of that unit, it is just joined to it. It does not get the special rules of that unit because it is not a member of that unit, it is just joined to it.

Ok. Now this just doesn't make any sense and doesn't follow the same path.

It's almost like you are making stuff up.

Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The wolf Guard is not a member of the Scout unit. He is Joined to the unit and cannot leave. Big Difference.

so he can shoot at different targets, does not grant his leadership bonus, can charge at a different target and does not need to stay within coherency because he is a different unit?

No, he is joined to the unit, so acts as if he was part of the unit. He is NOT part of the unit, because he is not a Space Wolf Scout.

As has been said, there is not enough information to make a definitive rules that will convince both sides.

There is nothing that supports that side of the argument that he acts as is he was part of the unit vs actually being part of the unit (or leading the unit, as is the case)

on page 47:
"Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from the beginning of the game, representing a squad leader or unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in the unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices."

so lets recap on the upgrade characters section....

Fielded as part of [the unit] from the beginning of the game

Check

represents a squad leader or unit champion

Check- this is fluff, but it is part of the text

no entry of their own

Check- he is no longer part of the original Wolf Guard 3-10 unit, thus has no entry

just another trooper in the unit

Check- by my interpretation

enhanced characteristics

Check- +1 Ld, +1 A, and a better save

wider selection of weapons and wargear choices

Check

I think there is enough information, on Page 3 of the BRB:
"Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections, or similarly named groups [Packs]... In Warhammer 40,000 we represent this by grouping models together into units... A unit will usually consist of several models that fight together as a group"

There is no way a model can act as a part of a unit and not be part of the unit.

Even Independent Characters that join units become part of the unit, they just have special rules that allow them to be "independent"

In this case the Wolf Guard model joins a group of warriors, fights alongside them and leads them, he is part of the unit.

that unit has special rules

our codex specifically says that models in that unit gain those special rules.






There is no logical disagreement between the rules written, there is only a disagreement of opinion based on the lack of the word "unit" on page 86 of the space wolf codex, the lack of this word is irrelevant however, because it does say that he joins the pack, and pack is a specific type of unit found in the Space Wolf Codex.

Not a Space Wolf Player, but I have to agree with the above. Its plain as day that there is no way a model can act as a part of a unit and not be part of the said unit.
Just my two cents.

@Imweasel: Those rulings make perfect sense. They're simply clarifying a few things:

1. Your opponent does not get a kill point if all WG are parceled out to other units.

2. You don't have to kill all the parceled-out WG in order to get a KP from the original unit (assuming it still exists)

3. You have to kill the whole unit, including the pack leader, in order to get a KP from a unit that a WG has joined.

willydstyle wrote:@Imweasel: Those rulings make perfect sense. They're simply clarifying a few things:

1. Your opponent does not get a kill point if all WG are parceled out to other units.

2. You don't have to kill all the parceled-out WG in order to get a KP from the original unit (assuming it still exists)

3. You have to kill the whole unit, including the pack leader, in order to get a KP from a unit that a WG has joined.

There is no raw to support any of this.

Why do you say that? Have you read the codex?

I have read the codex (as many have, I'm sure) and that's basically what the rules say. Any wolf guard given to another unit counts as an upgrade character for the unit. Therefore, a unit with an attached wolfguard is one KP, not two.

The original wolf guard unit is also its own unit, and since parceled-out WG are no longer part of that unit, you would not need to kill them to get the KP for the original WG unit.

Demogerg wrote:no entry of their own

Check- he is no longer part of the original Wolf Guard 3-10 unit, thus has no entry

just another trooper in the unit

Check- by my interpretation

Wrong. Simply all wrong.

He has an entry. He doesnt magically un-become a unit-entry, where does he loose it? At what point? Why? When does it tell you that he is simply a unit character upgrade? Does it give you the choice to buy a fully customisable wolfguard for each of the respective units? No, it does not. So where is the reasoning behind this rant?

Im hearing allot of people (Not just you Demogerg but your a prime recent example) give their own opinions on a topic that is entirely devoid of a few necessary bits of information then backing it up with totally irrelevant other bits of rules. I originally believed wolfguard to be awesome and do stuff, but now I have no Idea as I just cant explain it either way regardless of what I want/would like.

Combat-squads = give out their own kill-points? Why dont split-off wolfguard do the same eh? Why not? It doesnt say either way.

Fin.

Razerous wrote:

Demogerg wrote:no entry of their own

Check- he is no longer part of the original Wolf Guard 3-10 unit, thus has no entry

just another trooper in the unit

Check- by my interpretation

Wrong. Simply all wrong.

He has an entry. He doesnt magically un-become a unit-entry, where does he loose it? At what point? Why? When does it tell you that he is simply a unit character upgrade? Does it give you the choice to buy a fully customisable wolfguard for each of the respective units? No, it does not. So where is the reasoning behind this rant?

Im hearing allot of people (Not just you Demogerg but your a prime recent example) give their own opinions on a topic that is entirely devoid of a few necessary bits of information then backing it up with totally irrelevant other bits of rules. I originally believed wolfguard to be awesome and do stuff, but now I have no Idea as I just cant explain it either way regardless of what I want/would like.

Combat-squads = give out their own kill-points? Why dont split-off wolfguard do the same eh? Why not? It doesnt say either way.

Fin.

every unit killed gives out a kill point. If he's part of a unit then KP for killing that unit. combats squads makes one unit into two units which is why its two KP. You can't "count as part of unit in every way" (upgrade characters) and then count as being part of another unit.

dietrich wrote:

Razerous wrote:The wolfguard that split off and join other groups (which are specified units) are never referred to as Independent characters nor does it mention they gain any additional rules.

Only the inclusion of Independent characters to squads with certain USR's cause the various USR's to become void.

I think you have to treat the WG as part of the unit, unless told not to (as in the case of Beserk Charge with the BCs). So, a Wolf Guard assigned to a GH unit (in an army without Logan) is now a Troop model and can hold objectives. And a WG in a Logan-led army that is assigned to a LF pack is not a Troop model, he's a heavy support model and can't hold objectives.

Since, in my opinion, the WG is considered part of the Unit, he gains all the Unit's special abilities. So, a WG in a WolfScout unit could infiltrate, OBEL, etc. And, if Logan is in the army, would be an elite model and couldn't hold an objective.

Makes sense. Covers the differences of Logan/Nonlogan armies. Stealing for our instore rules.

Razerous wrote:

Wrong. Simply all wrong.

He has an entry. He doesnt magically un-become a unit-entry, where does he loose it? At what point? Why? When does it tell you that he is simply a unit character upgrade? Does it give you the choice to buy a fully customisable wolfguard for each of the respective units? No, it does not. So where is the reasoning behind this rant?

He loses it right at the point that he is "split off from his pack"

There is no Unit Entry for a Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

I only see a unit entry for a Wolf Guard Pack.

Gwar! wrote:No, a Wolf Guard Joins that unit. It does not become part of that unit.

I think this is my real problem with Gwar's argument. I have a hard time believing that a non-IC model who joins a unit "before the battle," and cannot leave that unit, is not part of that unit. By my interpretation, the wolfguard is clearly part of the unit, and thus he benefits from all of the unit's special rules per Codex:Space Wolves p. 81 (pre-release 2009).

-GK

I fully agree with you GK and believe you have made an excellent point.

GiantKiller wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, a Wolf Guard Joins that unit. It does not become part of that unit.

I think this is my real problem with Gwar's argument. I have a hard time believing that a non-IC model who joins a unit "before the battle," and cannot leave that unit, is not part of that unit. By my interpretation, the wolfguard is clearly part of the unit, and thus he benefits from all of the unit's special rules per Codex:Space Wolves p. 81 (pre-release 2009).

Where is the rule that says they become part of the unit? There is a rule saying they Join the unit and cannot leave, but this is not the same as being part of the unit. Nor do the Scouts and Infiltrate USR imply the whole unit benefits if only a single model has it, like stealth. Nor do those USR's allow models without those USRs to use them.

Gwar! wrote:

Where is the rule that says they become part of the unit? There is a rule saying they Join the unit and cannot leave, but this is not the same as being part of the unit.

this questions requires 2 quotes, one from Page 86 of the Space Wolf codex states

"Only one Wolf Guard may join each pack in this manner"

the word pack is synonymous with unit, as outlined on page 3 of the BRB

"Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups [packs]... we represent this by grouping models together into units."

Gwar! wrote:

Nor do the Scouts and Infiltrate USR imply the whole unit benefits if only a single model has it, like stealth. Nor do those USR's allow models without those USRs to use them.

Scouts and Infiltrate do not bestow the benefits to the entire unit, the Codex does.

on page 81 and 88.

Join is not synonymous with "a member of". If I join a Group of Nuns on a Bus, do I become a member of the Nuns and get all their funky special rules?

Gwar! wrote:Join is not synonymous with "a member of". If I join a Group of Nuns on a Bus, do I become a member of the Nuns and get all their funky special rules?

If you lived in Warhammer 40,000, These were Space Wolf Nuns, and they had their special rules listed in their entry without any specific clauses that state you do not gain their funky special rules, yes. Unless of course you were an Independent Character.

Join and member of not being synonyms is irrelevant, he is part of the unit.

In some form or fashion he is part of a unit of Space Wolf Scouts, and "Any special rules that apply to the models in the unit are listed here"

he is "in" the unit, the special rules apply to him.

Gwar! wrote:Join is not synonymous with "a member of". If I join a Group of Nuns on a Bus, do I become a member of the Nuns and get all their funky special rules?

Apples to Oranges.

If a IC joins with a unit, he becomes part of that unit. The rules have clearly been pointed out and stated above. You cant join a unit and not be part of that unit at the same time.

I agree, the wording is unclear. I never said it was 100% clear. Your argument has merit, as does mine. My personal View is that you cannot, which is what I have placed in the FAQ I have written. I even have it labelled as a [Clarification/Rules Change], so I am under no illusions that my view is 100% Clear as Crystal R.a.W. You are free to play it however you like. With some hope GW will cover this in their FAQ (Which contrary to what some have said, I do not ignore wholesale), though by the time it is released there will be no Oil left and Shrubberies will rule the Earth.