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So Gwar!, do we agree to disagree, or have you changed your stance on this matter?

Demogerg wrote:So Gwar!, do we agree to disagree, or have you changed your stance on this matter?

We will have to agree to disagree.

Demogerg wrote:The problem with the Broodlord example is that it is not a Genestealer Unit, it is a Broodlord unit that has genestealers in it. In addition to this, the broodlord IS an independent character.

The broodlord is an independent character, right up to the point where he takes a retinue. At that point he loses his IC status and becomes an 'upgrade'.

And if the 'genestealers' are not 'a genestealer unit' and are a 'brood lord unit', are you saying they don't have fleet?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Of course it is a seperate unit. It has its own rules, profile etc.

That's a slippery slope there gwar.

If that is truly the case, then if a wg joins ANY unit, then that unit cannot embark on a transport with the wg.

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Of course it is a seperate unit. It has its own rules, profile etc.

That's a slippery slope there gwar.

If that is truly the case, then if a wg joins ANY unit, then that unit cannot embark on a transport with the wg.

Also, it would create havoc in KP missions. Does each WG separately assigned to different units constitute an additional KP, or do you have to kill each and every WG model, divided up amongst several squads, before you can get the KP for the WG?

Saldiven wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Of course it is a seperate unit. It has its own rules, profile etc.

That's a slippery slope there gwar.

If that is truly the case, then if a wg joins ANY unit, then that unit cannot embark on a transport with the wg.

Also, it would create havoc in KP missions. Does each WG separately assigned to different units constitute an additional KP, or do you have to kill each and every WG model, divided up amongst several squads, before you can get the KP for the WG?

From my FAQ: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/258582.page

SW.86.14 – Q: How are Kill Points calculated for Wolf Guard Packs who have had models moved to lead other units?
A: A Kill Point is awarded once all the models remaining in the Wolf Guard Pack have been slain. Models that have
been assigned to other units as Wolf Guard Pack Leaders do not have to be slain. Should there be no Models left in the
Wolf Guard Pack before the battle begins it does not award a Kill Point – Kill Points cannot be awarded for things that
don't exist!. [Clarification]

SW.86.15 – Q: How are Kill Points awarded for units that have been joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader?
A: The whole unit, including the Pack Leader, must be slain. This awards one Kill Point. [Clarification]

Yes, I suppose "Own unit" was not a good way of putting it, but it is still not part of that unit, it is just joined to it. It does not get the special rules of that unit because it is not a member of that unit, it is just joined to it.

So is this banter going to go on and on for 7+ pages? Gwar it looks like you are in the minority on this one.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So is this banter going to go on and on for 7+ pages? Gwar it looks like you are in the minority on this one.

Yes, fantastic, I am in the Minority. Does that automatically make me wrong? Or does everyone think minorities are wrong where you are?

Funnily enough, blondes are a minority in Africa.

Anyway, knock it off the both of you, especially Afrikan Blonde. I don't want to be forced to consider official punishment because there are a lot of forms to fill in.

Kilkrazy wrote:Funnily enough, blondes are a minority in Africa.

Anyway, knock it off the both of you, especially Afrikan Blonde. I don't want to be forced to consider official punishment because there are a lot of forms to fill in.

Does the official punishment involve spanking? And does filling forms make you angry? If the answer is yes, I might just be naughty some more

Kilkrazy wrote:Funnily enough, blondes are a minority in Africa.

Anyway, knock it off the both of you, especially Afrikan Blonde. I don't want to be forced to consider official punishment because there are a lot of forms to fill in.

I choose to dye my hair.

Gwar! wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:So is this banter going to go on and on for 7+ pages? Gwar it looks like you are in the minority on this one.

Yes, fantastic, I am in the Minority. Does that automatically make me wrong? Or does everyone think minorities are wrong where you are?

After reading this thread, then re-reading the Vendetta Outflank thread, I must say WHAT?


Gwar, you took the exact opposite stance on that thread, in relatively the same thing. Don't argue that you didn't, don't argue that this is a TOTALLY different rule instance, since in that thread, you continuously brought up Drop Pods, so it must apply equally here.

I am beginning to see cracks in the "Gwar is all about the RAW" part of Dakka. It seems Gwar is just picking a side in the argument, and running with it, no RAW following on 2 seperate occasions now.

And you are missing the point. Nowhere does it state the unit has the USR. It says the Wolf Scouts Pack has the USR. A Wolf Guard Model is not a Wolf Scout. A Wolf Guard model cannot under any circumstances be deployed as an Infiltrator or arrive via Outflank because it does not have the rules allowing him to. The Scouts keep the Rule. The Wolf Guard Cannot arrive by Outflank. Because the Wolf Guard Cannot, he cannot. As he must stay with the Wolf Scouts, the Wolf Scouts cannot outflank.

Wow, what a difference in the way you argued about the Vendetta using outflank even though the unit embarked DOES NOT have the rules for either Infiltrate or Scout, one of which is REQUIRED to be able to Outflank.

If he doesn't have the USR's he cannot Infiltrate, Outflank etc. So doing it with that model is breaking the rules.

The exact thing I tried telling you about the Vendetta, how is it different now?

Neither The codex nor the rulebook mention upgrade characters getting the USRs of the unit they are in automatically, so they do not. It does not say the Wolf Guard CAN infiltrate, so he cannot.

Again, just WOW. Please use the argument again about how the Vets aren't "outflanking" but the vehicle is again. Seriously, why the big difference in your stance here, you are not following RAW in both of these arguments, you need to pick a side and stick with it.



Clay

Razerous wrote:The wolfguard that split off and join other groups (which are specified units) are never referred to as Independent characters nor does it mention they gain any additional rules.

Only the inclusion of Independent characters to squads with certain USR's cause the various USR's to become void.

I think you have to treat the WG as part of the unit, unless told not to (as in the case of Beserk Charge with the BCs). So, a Wolf Guard assigned to a GH unit (in an army without Logan) is now a Troop model and can hold objectives. And a WG in a Logan-led army that is assigned to a LF pack is not a Troop model, he's a heavy support model and can't hold objectives.

Since, in my opinion, the WG is considered part of the Unit, he gains all the Unit's special abilities. So, a WG in a WolfScout unit could infiltrate, OBEL, etc. And, if Logan is in the army, would be an elite model and couldn't hold an objective.

Primarch wrote:don't argue that this is a TOTALLY different rule instance, since in that thread, you continuously brought up Drop Pods, so it must apply equally here.

What? How does Drop Pods have anything to do with a Model not being allowed to outflank because it does not have the Scouts USR?

As for the vendetta, have you not yet realised the unit inside is not outflanking, it is arriving in the vendetta, which outflanks. This is not the same as a Unit of Wolf Scouts with a WGPL that is incapable of outflanking.

So, in fact, all you have done is take an entirely unrelated argument and sought to defame me.

Re-read the "Arriving from Reserves" section of your rulebook. If those vets aren't "moving on from their friendly rear table edge" they are indeed outflanking or deepstriking, as those are the ONLY ways to arrive on the battlefield from reserves.


I could ask you what Drop Pods have to do with Vendettas outflanking with Vets inside, but you sure brought it up over and over and over again to try and argue your point.


I don't care about "defaming" you, heh. I also wasn't trying to derail the thread, I am just curious as to why your stance is the opposite in this thread, compared to the other.



Clay

The IG (without Scout) are deploying from their transport that has Scout (Valk/Vend).
Exactly like marines (without DS) deploy from a transport that has DS (Drop Pod).

How does this relate to this thread?

I already commented on that, how does your post relate to this thread?



Clay

This is why it relates:

Primarch wrote:
After reading this thread, then re-reading the Vendetta Outflank thread, I must say WHAT?

Gwar, you took the exact opposite stance on that thread, in relatively the same thing. Don't argue that you didn't, don't argue that this is a TOTALLY different rule instance, since in that thread, you continuously brought up Drop Pods, so it must apply equally here.

Clay

You told him not to argue, but I wanted to point out that you are, in fact, wrong. His statement there is about a TOTALLY different rules instance.

A transport can use its set of rules even with passengers embarked. This is about a unit comprised of models with different rules.

kirsanth wrote:This is why it relates:

Primarch wrote:
After reading this thread, then re-reading the Vendetta Outflank thread, I must say WHAT?

Gwar, you took the exact opposite stance on that thread, in relatively the same thing. Don't argue that you didn't, don't argue that this is a TOTALLY different rule instance, since in that thread, you continuously brought up Drop Pods, so it must apply equally here.

Clay

You told him not to argue, but I wanted to point out that you are, in fact, wrong. His statement there is about a TOTALLY different rules instance.

A transport can use its set of rules even with passengers embarked. This is about a unit comprised of models with different rules.

Leave it kirsanth. The powers that be clearly do not mind users trolling me while banning me for agreeing with people. -Shrug-

What? Leave what?

I am nit-picking the errors in the posts. I am not even being rude about doing so.
That is what I do most of the time, when not answering questions no one else has yet. That and occasionally opining about random stuff.

I am not defending you, or even siding with you. Heck, your posts are definitely fun to nit-pick too.

Primarch I'm glad to see that someone else besides me noticed that vagary. It looks the majority here sees that the WG can outflank/infiltrate/OBEL with the wolf scouts. To me it makes sense since they could prior.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:To me it makes sense since they could prior.

And to me it makes sense for my Grey Hunters to be able to Disembark from the Front of their Rhinos after moving 12", fire their bolters and then assault, as they could do this in the prior codex as well.

What have I started!

The wolfguard team-leaders splitting off from their own squads & joining others presents an entirely unique situation as those wolfguard behave like IC yet never is it mentioned that they gain the rule nor does it even suggest as possible problems/solutions to the many conflicts this causes.

There for it is totally up for debate but at the end of the day there is simply a void in the information needed to clarify the issue.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:This is why it relates:

Primarch wrote:
After reading this thread, then re-reading the Vendetta Outflank thread, I must say WHAT?

Gwar, you took the exact opposite stance on that thread, in relatively the same thing. Don't argue that you didn't, don't argue that this is a TOTALLY different rule instance, since in that thread, you continuously brought up Drop Pods, so it must apply equally here.

Clay

You told him not to argue, but I wanted to point out that you are, in fact, wrong. His statement there is about a TOTALLY different rules instance.

A transport can use its set of rules even with passengers embarked. This is about a unit comprised of models with different rules.

Leave it kirsanth. The powers that be clearly do not mind users trolling me while banning me for agreeing with people. -Shrug-

Im not trolling you, i don't think. I am seriously curious why the different stance from you? In neither instance in the rulebooks or the codex, does Scout or Infiltrate say anywhere that they are conferred on anything EXCEPT a dedicated transport.

In one argument you say that doesn't mean anything, in the other, you say it does. Why so different? There is no rule saying that a vehicle gives rules to the guys inside, just like there is no rule saying the scouts give rules to the Wolf Guard. But you suggest one does, and the other does not.....



Clay

So you are suggesting Drop Pods do not work?

I may be "TFG", but I would never even come close to claiming that.

PM's ftw.
It took a few explainations from a couple of different people before I caught it.

Dedicated transports gain USRs/abilities when carrying units that would grant them. This allows a Scout's transport to Scout/Outflank while embarked in a transport that does not have the rule. Nothing, anywhere states that a transport losses USRs/abilities. In fact some of them would be almost non-functional if they did.

A unit embarked in a transport is still 2 different units. The restrictions on the embarked unit are those of the transport.
A transport with an embarked unit uses the transport's rules. Otherwise they would move (generally) 6" and moving, say, Oblits would force the transport to move d6" instead. The bit about dedicated transports is a bonus. Not a restriction.

A unit containing models with different rules sets must abide by both, the most restrictive of each. (i.e. Broodlord loses Fleet with GS, Marines can DS in a drop pod, IG can outflank in a Valk)

That is the difference, as I read it.

Does this make sense?

Gwar! wrote:So you are suggesting Drop Pods do not work?

I may be "TFG", but I would never even come close to claiming that.

Again, for maybe the tenth time, why are we talking about Drop Pods again? Drop Pods are not Vendettas. 2 Different vehicles, with 2 different rules sets. If you want to argue the ability for a Drop Pod to Deep strike with a unit inside, start a new thread discussing it. The RAI for a Drop Pod is obvious.

The Vendetta, not so much.

Either way, I believe that a WG attached to a Scout Squad can use the BEL rules, as BEL is not listed anywhere as being restricted by a WG joining the squad. Thats as valid of an argument as saying a Vendetta can carry IG vets and Outflank because it doesn't say they can't.

A unit containing models with different rules sets must abide by both, the most restrictive of each. (i.e. Broodlord loses Fleet with GS, Marines can DS in a drop pod, IG can outflank in a Valk)

Wait, what? How are the three examples related at all? Broodlord must abide by the most restrictive, meaning he loses Fleet, but the Marines and IG vets GAIN abilities? Doesn't sound very restrictive to me.


Clay



Clay

Primarch wrote:Either way, I believe that a WG attached to a Scout Squad can use the BEL rules, as BEL is not listed anywhere as being restricted by a WG joining the squad. Thats as valid of an argument as saying a Vendetta can carry IG vets and Outflank because it doesn't say they can't.

No, it is not. It is not even close to the same argument.

Gwar the example you state refers to early third edition while the Wolfguard can actually still OBEL with wolf scouts since the the new codex has not been officially released. I think your logic is flawed.

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Either way, I believe that a WG attached to a Scout Squad can use the BEL rules, as BEL is not listed anywhere as being restricted by a WG joining the squad. Thats as valid of an argument as saying a Vendetta can carry IG vets and Outflank because it doesn't say they can't.

No, it is not. It is not even close to the same argument.

Explain the difference then. Explain why in the other thread you said specifically, that an IG Vet squad could Outflank because the rules didn't stop you from doing so, and here those same non-restrictive rules all of a sudden don't matter?


It is the same thing, you are just being inconsistent. Either the rules must ALLOW you to do something, or they don't, pick a side already.



Clay

Primarch wrote:
Again, for maybe the tenth time, why are we talking about Drop Pods again? Drop Pods are not Vendettas. 2 Different vehicles, with 2 different rules sets. If you want to argue the ability for a Drop Pod to Deep strike with a unit inside, start a new thread discussing it. The RAI for a Drop Pod is obvious.

The Vendetta, not so much.

Because, transports allow them to. I.E why Tactical Marines can Deep Strike with a Drop Pod and why Vets can Outflank in a Vendetta.

Edit: Yes, I made a mistake. No need to jump down my throat.