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Demogerg wrote:

imweasel wrote:I wonder how people would feel if the situation were reversed?

I had a model with infiltrate/scout (that is not an IC), but could join a unit as a 'battle leader' that did not have either USR.

Would the unit now be allowed to use the USR?

You mean like stealth and Telion?

No completely different. Stealth adds +1 to a units cover doesn't mater where stealth is or how many people has it; the effect will be the same.

Demogerg wrote:

imweasel wrote:I wonder how people would feel if the situation were reversed?

I had a model with infiltrate/scout (that is not an IC), but could join a unit as a 'battle leader' that did not have either USR.

Would the unit now be allowed to use the USR?

You mean like stealth and Telion?

Big Difference. Stealth specifically states the unit benefits. Scouts and Infiltrate do not.

Agree with Razerous et al.

Razerous wrote:Exactly.

The Wolfguard model does not have scouts/infiltrator/etc.. When the wolfguard model joins the Wolf Scout unit he and the other scouts are now all the Wolf Scout unit. He gets to use these new rules as he is apart of the unit. Because this is what the rules tell us. Units & big-love.

So broodlords get fleet when they take a gene stealer retinue?

What?!?

I dunno if I am convinced yet.

Under Universal Special Rules:

"The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independent character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same speical rule."



Under infiltrate:

"Units with this special rule are deployed last...."
"If a unit with this ability is deployed...."

Also, on pg 94, under Outflank:

"players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy"


So my line of logic here is that the Unit still has the ability, they never lost it. An Independent character has not joined the unit.

under outflank it does not require that the entire unit be composed of 'scout' or 'infiltrate' models, only that the unit must be "with" the special rules.

But how can a Unit have a special rule if not all the models in the unit have the special rule? That is like saying a Broodlord gets fleet with his retinue.

The problem with the Broodlord example is that it is not a Genestealer Unit, it is a Broodlord unit that has genestealers in it. In addition to this, the broodlord IS an independent character.

I brought this problem up with retinues since they don't contain IC till after the unit is gone. I think it was agreed in this case the IC though not counting as one at that specific moment was still an IC so the rule was lost.

As it stands if the unit has the USR and is joined by a non-IC then the USR stays and is still in effect.

Tri wrote:As it stands if the unit has the USR and is joined by a non-IC then the USR stays and is still in effect.

And you are missing the point. Nowhere does it state the unit has the USR. It says the Wolf Scouts Pack has the USR. A Wolf Guard Model is not a Wolf Scout. A Wolf Guard model cannot under any circumstances be deployed as an Infiltrator or arrive via Outflank because it does not have the rules allowing him to. The Scouts keep the Rule. The Wolf Guard Cannot arrive by Outflank. Because the Wolf Guard Cannot, he cannot. As he must stay with the Wolf Scouts, the Wolf Scouts cannot outflank.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:As it stands if the unit has the USR and is joined by a non-IC then the USR stays and is still in effect.

And you are missing the point. Nowhere does it state the unit has the USR. It says the Wolf Scouts Pack has the USR. A Wolf Guard Model is not a Wolf Scout. A Wolf Guard model cannot under any circumstances be deployed as an Infiltrator or arrive via Outflank because it does not have the rules allowing him to. The Scouts keep the Rule. The Wolf Guard Cannot arrive by Outflank. Because the Wolf Guard Cannot, he cannot. As he must stay with the Wolf Scouts, the Wolf Scouts cannot outflank.

Wolf scouts units have the rule and may infiltrate. Wolf guard join a unit and count as part of the unit. Wolf scouts units have the rule and may infiltrate

Nowhere does it say the unit has the rule. The Models have the rule. Or are you going to argue the unit only has 1 Bolt Pistol as well?

Wolf Guard are "assigned to lead" in which they "join each pack"

In this case they are still not independent characters, and they have joined into another unit.
page 81 of the Space Wolf Codex:
"Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to the models in the unit are listed here..."

The Wolf Guard has joined the unit, he is a model, he is not an independant character, therefore he gains the special rules of said unit.

The Space Wolf Codex even has a precedent for clearing up the contradiction when it concerns Wolf Guard joining units with special rules. On page 25 under Berserk Charge:
"Note that this does not apply to other models that may have joined the pack."

Demogerg wrote:The Wolf Guard has joined the unit, he is a model, he is not an independant character, therefore he gains the special rules of said unit.

Where does it say this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Demogerg wrote:The Space Wolf Codex even has a precedent for clearing up the contradiction when it concerns Wolf Guard joining units with special rules. On page 25 under Berserk Charge:
"Note that this does not apply to other models that may have joined the pack."

Exactly, it doesn't apply, because the rule does not say it applies. It doesn't apply anyway, and the note is there to remind you. If it were a rule and not a reminder, it would not say "Note", it would just say "This does not apply".

If it makes you all happy I can change it to [Clarification/Rules Change/GW Cannot fething write] in the next revision of the FAQ due tomorrow

Demogerg wrote:Wolf Guard are "assigned to lead" in which they "join each pack" [
/quote] page 86
The Wolf Guard has joined the pack. This is interpreted as joining the unit, as they act as a single unit in game.

The Wolf Guard model is a model, this is an undisputable fact.

he is not an independent character, he does not have the "independent character" special rule

Why are you all bringing up Independent Characters? I have already stated, the Wolf Scouts Keep the Rule. The Wolf Guard Model does not have the rule, even if he is part of the unit. Nothing suggests the USR is conferred upon him.

If he doesn't have the USR's he cannot Infiltrate, Outflank etc. So doing it with that model is breaking the rules.

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:The Space Wolf Codex even has a precedent for clearing up the contradiction when it concerns Wolf Guard joining units with special rules. On page 25 under Berserk Charge:
"Note that this does not apply to other models that may have joined the pack."

Exactly, it doesn't apply, because the rule does not say it applies. It doesn't apply anyway, and the note is there to remind you. If it were a rule and not a reminder, it would not say "Note", it would just say "This does not apply".

If it makes you all happy I can change it to [Clarification/Rules Change/GW Cannot fething write] in the next revision of the FAQ due tomorrow

what I was refering to was clearing up the contradiction when a Wolf Guard joins a unit with special rules, in this case there is no contradiction, the Wolf Guard gains the rules.

Demogerg wrote:what I was refering to was clearing up the contradiction when a Wolf Guard joins a unit with special rules, in this case there is no contradiction, the Wolf Guard gains the rules.

Why though? I do not see any rule that says they do.

Gwar! wrote:Why are you all bringing up Independent Characters? I have already stated, the Wolf Scouts Keep the Rule. The Wolf Guard Model does not have the rule, even if he is part of the unit. Nothing suggests the USR is conferred upon him.

If he doesn't have the USR's he cannot Infiltrate, Outflank etc. So doing it with that model is breaking the rules.

the reason I keep bringing it up is that he is a model that joins a unit with special rules and he does not have any provisions for preventing his aquisition of special rules that apply to the unit.

Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Why are you all bringing up Independent Characters? I have already stated, the Wolf Scouts Keep the Rule. The Wolf Guard Model does not have the rule, even if he is part of the unit. Nothing suggests the USR is conferred upon him.

If he doesn't have the USR's he cannot Infiltrate, Outflank etc. So doing it with that model is breaking the rules.

the reason I keep bringing it up is that he is a model that joins a unit with special rules and he does not have any provisions for preventing his aquisition of special rules that apply to the unit.

So your argument is "It doesn't say he doesn't?"

Gwar! wrote:Why though? I do not see any rule that says they do.

page 81 of the Space Wolf Codex:
"Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to the models in the unit are listed here..."

A Wolf Guard is a model that becomes part of the unit.

Demogerg wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Why though? I do not see any rule that says they do.

page 81 of the Space Wolf Codex:
"Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to the models in the unit are listed here..."

A Wolf Guard is a model that becomes part of the unit.

No, a Wolf Guard Joins that unit. It does not become part of that unit.

"Before the battle, each Wolf Guard has the option of being split off from his pack and assigned to lead a different pack from the following list: Blah, blah, blah, Wolf Scouts, Blah. Only one Wolf Guard may join each pack in this manner. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine Bikes may not join Wolf Scouts units."

It does not say they become a part of the unit, only that they join it. Otherwise what you say means IC's joining a unit of Blood Claws become Headstrong, thus invalidating the whole part about IC's being in the unit.

so you are saying a Wolf Guard that is Joined to a unit is still a separate unit?

I think there may be an inconsistancy in that arguement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

It does not say they become a part of the unit, only that they join it. Otherwise what you say means IC's joining a unit of Blood Claws become Headstrong, thus invalidating the whole part about IC's being in the unit.

no, because Independent characters dont share rules, and Wolf Guard are not ICs.


EDIT- I think at this point we have said all there is to be said on this matter, and we will have to agree to disagree.

Demogerg wrote:so you are saying a Wolf Guard that is Joined to a unit is still a separate unit?

I think there may be an inconsistancy in that arguement.

Of course it is a seperate unit. It has its own rules, profile etc. If Logan is in the Army he is scoring even if attached to Long Fangs.

As you said, Berserk Charge does not get given to Models that have joined the Pack.
It says "note", which means it is a reminder, not rules.
Thus you can conclude that Special Rules are never confered to models joining a unit.

Take a USR without a *, like Relentless. Are you suggesting a Long Fang in a Unit with a Terminator Wolf Guard is Relentless? Because the Wolf Guard is relentless, so the unit obviously has relentless.

What about an IC with a bike (who has Skilled Rider because of being an IC), does he give it to a Swiftclaw pack he has joined?

Or How about a Wolf Guard on a Bike. He is not an IC, so the * Doesn't apply to Turbo Boosters. Can he allow Blood Claws to Turboboost?

Gwar! wrote:
Take a USR without a *, like Relentless. Are you suggesting a Long Fang in a Unit with a Terminator Wolf Guard is Relentless? Because the Wolf Guard is relentless, so the unit obviously has relentless.

Relentless does not effect Units, it effects models.

Also, the unit "Wolf Guard" does not have the special rule "relentless" in their "Special Rules" section of their entry on page 86

It is still a Special Rule. You cannot have it both ways.

Gwar! wrote:
What about an IC with a bike (who has Skilled Rider because of being an IC), does he give it to a Swiftclaw pack he has joined?

Back to the Independent Character arguement.

Gwar! wrote:
Or How about a Wolf Guard on a Bike. He is not an IC, so the * Doesn't apply to Turbo Boosters. Can he allow Blood Claws to Turboboost?

No, Turbo-Boosters apply to "Units mounted on bikes and jetbikes" not "Units with bikes and jetbikes"

Demogerg wrote:No, Turbo-Boosters apply to "Units mounted on bikes and jetbikes" not "Units with bikes and jetbikes"

Sorry, but that is not rules. That's background. Nowhere does it say the unit type has to be Bike or Jetbike to use the rule.

Gwar! wrote:It is still a Special Rule. You cannot have it both ways.

I understand this, but on page 81 of the Space Wolf Codex it refers to the Special Rules that apply to the unit, Relentless is a special rule that is a applied to a specific model wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor (or riding a bike).

The Special Rule Relentless is not listed as a special rule for Wolf Guard, it is only gained by models that you have purchased either a bike or terminator armor for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:No, Turbo-Boosters apply to "Units mounted on bikes and jetbikes" not "Units with bikes and jetbikes"

Sorry, but that is not rules. That's background. Nowhere does it say the unit type has to be Bike or Jetbike to use the rule.

Read page 76 of the BRB.


The term "with" is inclusive, if one model has it, the term is satisfied. Turbo-Boosters does not include the word "with" and thus the requirement is that all models have the rule. Otherwise, the models without the Turbo-Boosters special rule would be breaking their movement rules.

pg. 74 BGB wrote: The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an IC joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule.

Now, WG aren't special characters, but what is the purpose of the second half of that section? It's completely redundant if an IC without the USR joins the unit with the USR (under the argument that Gwar is presenting), because not all models in the unit have the USR (infiltrate for example), so it cannot be used. The example with the WG would seem to indicate that it could still be used, as the USR isn't lost by the unit.

It might be a little bit of backward inference, but it seems reasonable to some extent that it's how it would work.

Another question: if a WG is still another unit when he "joins" a different unit, how are KP worked out? You have to kill every WG across however many units to get the 1 KP for the elite choice it originally came from?

It seems broken to split up WG into every unit with Logan and have every unit count as scoring.

Traskel wrote:It seems broken to split up WG into every unit with Logan and have every unit count as scoring.

That's what the rules say. Logan+WG+Long Fangs+Relentless = Dead Tanks

It also seems broken for Tau to be allowed to JSJ, but they still can.