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J-Roc77 wrote:Skill trumps speed/strenght.

See, I hate it when people keep saying this, because they make no attempt to quantify how much skill is better than how much strength or speed. If you've trained a for ten years and a week are you going to beat someone who's trained for ten years and has 50 pounds of muscle on you? Hell no.

Skill isn't always better then strength, and you can't use the possible range of human strength/speed in this instance since we're dealing in the superhuman. It really doesn't matter if Superman is coming at Bruce Lee like an untrained brawler, he's going to win.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

J-Roc77 wrote:Skill trumps speed/strenght.

Skill isn't always better then strength, and you can't use the possible range of human strength/speed in this instance since we're dealing in the superhuman. It really doesn't matter if Superman is coming at Bruce Lee like an untrained brawler, he's going to win.

This, a thousand times this. The only units in 40k that stand a decent chance against marines are those that are equipped to kill them, howling banshees and genestealers. Anything not equipped to handle a marine has little chance, gaunts, scorpions etc.

Skill is more of an assistance thing. Look I'm not saying it would be easy, but it can be done. Humanoids could possibly win against astartes, could anyone but the eldar do it well? No. They have been designed to be faster, stronger, smarter and effectively better than any standard humanoid being in the galaxy, and they are. STR and T say it all, but WS makes a huge difference. We have a goddamn stat to represent skill level, and the eldar have that in spades. While humanoids are at a distinct disadvantage because of Str and T, it isn't over. You can't win a fight you can't end, and that works for the humanoids as well as the SM.

P.S. the whole '1 lucky shot can end it all' works both ways. I don't care how much effort you put into making bulletproof ribcages, acid spit and self-engaged suspended animation organs, one lucky shot to the jaw is all that will ever be needed to take down anything in real life.

So if both sides have a shot of winning it, but the marines have the advantage. Then most humanoids are screwed in combat versus marines. I mean what this has devolved into is 'could elite close combat eldar beat marines regularly'. Obviously nobody is debating marines vs genestealers in hand to hand. And nobody is debating basic ork boys or guard vs marines in hand to hand. So yes, 99% of humanoids are fethed against marines in a melee battle. It takes the best of the best to beat them.
/thread

Grots can defeat Space Marines pretty readily, on account of being sneeky and having sharp teeth.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

J-Roc77 wrote:Skill trumps speed/strenght.

See, I hate it when people keep saying this, because they make no attempt to quantify how much skill is better than how much strength or speed. If you've trained a for ten years and a week are you going to beat someone who's trained for ten years and has 50 pounds of muscle on you? Hell no.

Skill isn't always better then strength, and you can't use the possible range of human strength/speed in this instance since we're dealing in the superhuman. It really doesn't matter if Superman is coming at Bruce Lee like an untrained brawler, he's going to win.

Bob Sapp makes me think of this. Look him up on you tube...come to think of it..he may be proportioned like a space marine too!! lol I mean he won some matches against Ernesto Hoost, but he was way past his prime. Nogeria beat him too. And I hate the Bruce Lee bandwagon....he lost fights too. People just pick him as #1 because of the movies. He was in no way the height of human fighting. A bit off topic there, my bad.

I do see your point, how to quantify where strenght cuts off skill so it no longer is a factor. I imagine it is higher up the dice rolls than the space marine / eldar matchup. The power lvl comparison there is a bit extreme...I mean Superman? Now an Eldar vs SM isn't really a Superman Bruce Lee fight. I think someone has already mentioned the WS side of the discussion. The strenght / toughness is not much of a blowout either. I guess my point is that while space marines are "perfected" and "enhanced" human killing machines, they are still limited by being human. It is comparing apples and oranges really. I mean they both are fruit, but that's about where it ends.

J-Roc77 wrote:I do see your point, how to quantify where strenght cuts off skill so it no longer is a factor. I imagine it is higher up the dice rolls than the space marine / eldar matchup.

No, what I'm saying is how do you quantify strength and skill in such a manner that allows you to say that one unit of skill is better than one unit of strength?

You can't say that the slightest amount of skill makes more of a difference than the greatest amount of strength, because it's simply not true.

In that case you're left saying X amount of skill is better than X amount of strength, but that requires you to come up with units of strength, and units of skill, and make them comparable in some manner. Now, if you were talking about regular humans you could come up with a scale for each (i.e. from "Scrawny but not Sickly" to "Olympic Powerlifter" and from "Untrained" to "Trained His Whole Life"), but we're specifically talking about the inhuman.

You don't have to make something no longer a factor to make it not enough of a factor to win.

The power lvl comparison there is a bit extreme...I mean Superman? Now an Eldar vs SM isn't really a Superman Bruce Lee fight. I think someone has already mentioned the WS side of the discussion. The strenght / toughness is not much of a blowout either. I guess my point is that while space marines are "perfected" and "enhanced" human killing machines, they are still limited by being human. It is comparing apples and oranges really. I mean they both are fruit, but that's about where it ends.

The Superman vs Bruce Lee was an exaggeration; it was just a demonstration of how any amount of skill cannot be better than any amount of strength, especially when there's no cap on the potential amount of strength coming into play.

Still, Space Marines are not limited by being human. They literally have far more capacity for strength than a human could ever possibly have. They're not perfected, they're transformed. Only if you increase the scope of humanity to include, well, Space Marines specifically would they be limited by being human, but that's a circular argument. I sort of feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but Space Marines have genetically a enhanced muscle structure, ceramic-laced bones, gooey blood, two hearts, and a carapace beneath their skin even before their armor, and really aren't human in any relative sense of the word. I mean, Genestealers are made from humans as well.

Bodichi wrote:If enjoying the hideous raping of Heinlien's best book is the key to becoming a mod I hereby dislike and abhor all mods and vow never to be one.

I may be a small, petty man, but it pleases me that you misspelled "Heinlein" in your short diatribe there about mods.

tee hee

Bah! I may be looking at this from the wrong view. I have however been on both sides of this discussion in real life. I have beaten someone bigger/stronger than me on occasion. As well as had my butt handed to me by a larger less skilled opponent. Heck..I guess I have been beaten by a smaller guy several times too. Cory is a wiry little JuJitsu guy had me tapping out in like 2 minutes..I had 30 pounds on him!

I guess my point again is, if I take an apple smoothie, add all sortsa nutrients to it, energy stuff, sugar ...and umm...rum. It is still an apple smoothie.

SMs can be as superhuman as all getout but if their brains haven't been turned into something that isn't made of brains, they can still be smacked silly by a good whack to the head or helmet.

Actually it becomes an apple smoothie with all sorts of nutrients to it, energy stuff,sugar and rum lol Which im sure if you drink enough will knock you on your butt hahah. Anyways Ive been reading and good points all, but Space Marines FTW. Ok not only have most marines been fighting on there homeplanets most there life(most Marine Chapters recruit from Death worlds or feudal ones take your pick) so basically they've had in field experience at least in CC fighting even from childhood. Compared to Eldar who tho live longer and all are not bred into fighting at early ages, they fight when they come of age I believe and start there path of the eldar and all?correct me if im wrong. Also The eldar dont fight as often as Astartes they pick there engagements cause there a dieing race, thus less experince for basic warriors. Back to Marine, so warrior kid gets recruited and then made into a superhuman, not only is he the best killer humanity has to offer now he has even more tools and a new more effective body to kill more things . Both train and cross train in there monastery or temple, but the average run of the mill eldar(which I believe is a Guardian or Avenger?) against the average run of the mill Space Marine(which is a Space Marine) The Guardian or Avenger is dead im sorry were going off ""basic many"" humanoids people not the elite of the elite. Space Marine has had more infield training then a guardian or avenger, is stronger personally I think faster but if not faster then tougher giving speed to Guardian and Avenger, Space Marine 2 out of 3 for win, speed isnt everything, exarchs, dont count people there elite of elite and dont count as most humanoids since there arent alot of them, just like Veteran Space Marines dont count.Banshee's would only when cause they fight with there asses hanging out lol, thus the Space Marine likes to draw out a CC fight with them, I know I would

Look at it this way. You can take a wiener dog. You can implant increased strength, toughness, resistance, etc etc. You can teach it how to fight other dogs.

But a komodo dragon is still going to not notice and eat it.

Thats the marines. They are are uber human machines and in fluff do well against most races. But they are still humans. Eldar are complete aliens. The space monkeys from planet Banana are aliens. Their physiology is different, just completely different. They may be weaker and faster, but their speed may be such that they are multiples faster than a human. An eldar aspect warrior may be able to move so fast the marine literally can't track its movements. It definitely follows fluff.

What use is a great battleaxe if your opponent just stuck you twelve times with their own power blade, and already danced off to wack the next squad?

true, if your enhancing something, in this case a human, theres only so far you can go before it doesnt get any stronget/quicker etc. Whereas with an eldar its standard reaction time or speed may be so much more than a humans than you cant match it even by genetically enhancing it.

Marines arent human anymore though. You have a stupid example, thats like taking a wiener dog, making it into a wolf, and saying well its still a dog. Its like taking a honda civic, and putting a honda civic frame of a lamborghini. They both look slightly similar, but one outperforms the other in terms of everything but gas mileage. And the imperium has more then enough gasoline.

Look at what goes into making a marine. Super strong muscles, multiple organs, fused bones, and amazing power armor that he wears easily. Not to mention the crazy reaction time, practical fearlessness, and intelligence. They might have their heads up their ass religiously, as they are brainwashed, but marines are the smartest AND strongest of humans. Modified to perform in any which way. If I can extend my arm for a complete punch in under a tenth of a second, benchpress two tons, run 100+miles without a problem, breathe poison, and have a bullet bounce off my skull, im barely human.

Like I have said, it takes the elite of other races, equipped to kill marines at that, to take out marines. Hell banshees dont even do that good against marines on table top if they dont have farseer back up.

Eidolon wrote:Marines arent human anymore though. You have a stupid example, thats like taking a wiener dog, making it into a wolf, and saying well its still a dog. Its like taking a honda civic, and putting a honda civic frame of a lamborghini. They both look slightly similar, but one outperforms the other in terms of everything but gas mileage. And the imperium has more then enough gasoline.

Look at what goes into making a marine. Super strong muscles, multiple organs, fused bones, and amazing power armor that he wears easily.

Like I have said, it takes the elite of other races, equipped to kill marines at that, to take out marines. Hell banshees dont even do that good against marines on table top if they dont have farseer back up.

Agree, this basically what I was trying to say but you summed it up in alot less words lol

Eidolon wrote:Marines arent human anymore though. You have a stupid example, thats like taking a wiener dog, making it into a wolf, and saying well its still a dog. Its like taking a honda civic, and putting a honda civic frame of a lamborghini. They both look slightly similar, but one outperforms the other in terms of everything but gas mileage. And the imperium has more then enough gasoline.

Look at what goes into making a marine. Super strong muscles, multiple organs, fused bones, and amazing power armor that he wears easily.

Like I have said, it takes the elite of other races, equipped to kill marines at that, to take out marines. Hell banshees dont even do that good against marines on table top if they dont have farseer back up.

To an eldar, to a Nid, humans ARE weiner dogs.
Their muscles still work on the concept of human muscle tissue. Alien tissue will, has to work on something completely alien.
Lets make it simple. Marine vs. genestealer. Marine loses
Marine vs. Allosaurus. Marine loses.
Marine vs. a hominid thats wearing a Power field. Marine can't get to it.
Marine vs. a human in a terminator suit. Marine loses.
Marine vs. bloodletter. Marine loses.
Marine vs. Dracula. marine loses.
Dracula vs. Chuck Norris. Dracula loses.
Chuck Norris vs. John Wayne. Chuck Norris loses.
Marine vs. a dalek. Marine beats entire dalek race. before breakfast.
Ok I've kind of meandered off topic haven't I...

Also, if they wanted too, im sure the hive mind would be able to change his nids so that they can beat marines by making thier muscles etc. different so that a marine would be totaly out-witted out-strengthed etc.

Also consider this, if you think that a Marine could adapt to anything, just set a Carnifex on him, its so big and strong it would just eat him, superpowers or not.

I thought this was thread about if Space Marines could best other humanoids(Eldar, Necrons, Humans, Tau) anything with two legs and two arms

Lord Chiasson wrote:I thought this was thread about if Space Marines could best other humanoids(Eldar, Necrons, Humans, Tau) anything with two legs and two arms

A carnifex has two arms and two legs. Occasionally it has more arms...

Marine vs. Hive tyrant. Marine vs. Lictor. Marine vs. Bob from Accounting.

lol I thought all Carinfexs had at least four arms, two being like tiny like a T-Rex proably longer tho not sure, and Why make one with two when you can have one with four? lol anyways human ingenuity can always come into play if were going to play Space Marine still a human card(tho IMO they very diff), thus there pwnage still is assured lol. Oh its a giant carinfex, let just run to the side of of it and attack it from the side or rear cause its reflexes are slower then mine, oh and so it doesn't stomp me ill jump upon its back, or for better measure just wait till you scream at me to try an intimidate me and ill throw a frag/krak/melta(take you pick) gernade down your throat, it may take awhile but dont worry carinfex you will be granted death lol human ingenuity Game, set, match lol

Why would a carnifex try to intimidate you? It wants you not moving on a permanent basis. It doesn't know what intimidation is. It does know how to make a really good strawberry margarita, however...

Lol, I would figured as all giant Animals do they(which im guessing the Carnifex has the intelligence of) would just scream at you out of instinct like a bear roars or a lion to show prowess over its prey, thus the grenade in the mouth . Hey we should have a party with that Carni

Well its unversally known that Carnifexes make the best bartenders. Its Imperial propaganda about the whole killy killy thing.

Nids are not humanoids as they have an exoskeleton. Beat that argument.

Your wussy definition will not avail you!

A humanoid is a hybrid term from Latin humanus "human" and the Greek -oeides expressing likeness. The term was coined in the year of 1918 to refer to fossils considered close to human but not strictly human, including species now classified as Homo such as the Neanderthals.

The term more generally refers to any being whose body structure resembles that of a human, including upright stance and bipedalism. This includes anthropomorphic creatures in mythology as well as humanoid robots, especially in the context of science fiction and fantasy fiction. An android or gynoid is a humanoid robot designed to look like a male or female human, respectively, although the words are frequently perceived to be synonymous.

Most of the aliens in television and movies are presented as humanoid. Occasionally a rationale for the similarity of disparate alien races all sharing humanoid body structure is presented. For example, the episode "The Chase" of Star Trek: The Next Generation explained the humanoid denizens of the Star Trek universe by advancing the story of a primordial humanoid civilization, the Ancient humanoids, that seeded the galaxy with genetically-engineered cells that guide evolution toward humanoid life (see panspermia). In Stargate SG-1, many if not all of the aliens encountered are human, and this is explained by them having traveled from Earth in the distant past (See Children of the Gods). In most cases, like the classic Doctor Who serials, the reason for the similarity is not explained (although The Big Finish Productions audio play Zagreus offers a more sinister explanation: that the time lords may have seeded the universe with biogenic molecules so that only intelligent species that approximated the Gallifreyan humanoid norm would develop), and it is regarded simply as a dramatic convention or artistic license, requiring suspension of disbelief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanoid

"Body structure resembles that of a human"

Like being 20 feet tall and wearing your bone structure as a coat?

A humanoid is just anything that resembles a human in shape. 2 arms, 2 legs and a head on top of a torso are about all the requirements you must meet. A statue can be humanoid, a robot can be humanoid, and the exoskeletonized bugs from mimic are humanoid.

On a slightly more topical note- we are assuming the Marine has his powered exoskeleton, or armor, are we not?

And a final point for those natural scientist out there- would the Black Carapace be a form of exoskeleton, even though it is technically under the skin? A solid bone vessel for your organs is usually the basic idea behind an exoskeleton, but I don't know if coating it with skin turns it into an endoskeleton or not.

Edit- Frazzled beat me to it!

Lol, im sure Carfinex would make an excellent bartender, if it wasn't tying to consume all life . Anyways besides that im still sayin Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines CC Gods fluff wise. And Humans do have there Ingenuity as ive sayed before great advantage doing more with less(just ask Farseer Macha lol ), which I can give alot of different examples of if you like

Gitzbitah wrote:
On a slightly more topical note- we are assuming the Marine has his powered exoskeleton, or armor, are we not?

i see no reason why the marine should fight naked while everyone else gets armor.

Eidolon wrote:"Body structure resembles that of a human"

Like being 20 feet tall and wearing your bone structure as a coat?

He's kinda got you there Frazzled.

On the same note, I suppose SOME tyranid creatures (such as Genestealers) could be counted as humanoids.