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Right, but banshees are the only thing really capable of doing serious damage.

Also, I dont remember any of the emperors childrens captains dying to any banshees. I do remember Lucius dueling like 3 of them at once and winning.

What about MANDIBLASTERS!?

Irony. It's funny. (@manchu)

Having been in a few fights and many actual sword fights (properly trained too) I can say that while speed gives an edge, a well aimed strike with full strength behind it can totally rock you, slowing you down, sapping your energy and putting you onto the backfoot.

For instance I had one opponent who struck me so hard he actually knocked my sword out of my hand; in this instance a foil, so you can imagine that in fencing you really have little need to put power into your attacks, all you have to do is touch your oppoent not batter them into submission.

I was determined that he wouldn't do it again (he was a dreadful fencer that no-one wanted to fight but I got blagged into it) and so I held my foil as tightly as I could which resulted in the thing literally exploding into pieces, leaving my with only the grip. The blade had been forced out of the grip shearing the thread off, essentially destroying it. If that had been a real fight then by sheer strength alone I would have been left defenceless.

Eidolon wrote:

Clthomps wrote: Speed is a more than a match for strength.

I hear this a lot, but never from anyone who has actually been in a real right.

I concur. The other thing I never really understood is how this 'big and slow' stereotype ever came about. Do people not realize muscles are what is propelling the limbs? Strong muscles=fast swings. I concede that muscle-bound warriors would likely lack the grace or flexibility of a more lithe enemy, but I would highly doubt they can swing a blade much faster.

And remember; space marines aren't jacked up weightlifters with biceps like watermelons and necks so thick they can't turn their head; these are men muscled FROM combat, not for it.

Its D&D fighting systems being compared to the real world. You are either fast but weak or slow but strong. In real life you can be fast and strong, and flexible.

Not to go OT but the idea of killing stuff with a high pitched sound is badass. Especially in the case of the doomsiren.

Strength vs. Speed the ultimate question.

I am the equivalent to a “Black Belt” in Medieval Combat Tactics and Weapons Use.

This is what I have learned.

Q] What is the Most Uncomfortable Armor.
A] Someone else’s.

I have seen [live] people do tuck rolls in Full Plate Armor.
I have seen a 135 lb man in Plate over power a 275lb man in clothes.
I have matched a master of Full Plate Grappling and Overbearing with strength.

It comes down to 5 things
1] Skill [Knowing what everything you do is possible of doing]
2] Training [Knowing what everything you have is capable of doing]
3] Experience [Knowing what you opponent will most likely do]
4] Built in Reflexive moves [Making the Killing Strike when the opening presents itself before you see it]
5] Natural Aggressiveness [Usually The one who moves first moves fastest usually takes control of the fight]

As far as slow, a SM or CSM armor is wired into him so it can’t count as a factor.
The Game already has put the individual speeds for each creature in place.
The only thing that I conceder wrong with there initiative system is reach has no place in 40k, but I think that would just slow down the game.

So Strength and Speed is already in there

@Grogsnik: You really were fencing with a poor sport, weren't you? But in my experience, someone who swings so hard must have a very poor guard. I always found that opponents who focus on brute strength were the easiest to score off of in foil but especially in epee. To be honest, I always preferred sabre--that's where strength might actually be something of a factor. I often found myself disarming opponents used to the other weapons. It wasn't because I was merely stronger. Rather it was because they didn't understand the sabre parry, which is a kind of twist that accentuates strength. In other words, you don't have to be very strong with certain weapons even though strength does count for something. (That said, I was nothing like the equivalent of a "black belt" fencer.)

Anyway, I imagine Eldar weaponry and training to focus their natural abilities, making them at least a match--if not on a one to one basis--for most SM.

Eldar Aspect armour is analogous to power armour in that it mimics the wearer's movement.

As for being too different to humans, Marines are still made of flesh and bone. With both in their armour, a marine wouldn't be able to break through the armour of the aspect warrior with an unarmed blow (if he could, he'll break his own armour at the weaker jointed section of his glove first).

With this in mind, it would be a weapon based fight centred around piercing a weaker point in the armour. The Eldar warrior would normally be too slippery and experienced to get into a ground game with the Marine.

I'm pretty sure that a marine backhanding an aspect warrior across the face would give them a nasty case of broken neck.

Even if a banshee shoved thier sword right through the torso of the SM, the big guy might still shrug it off and bear hug the banshee to death. Superhuman, remember? These guys have TWO hearts!

Manchu wrote:KK's right. I've heard it said more than once that on the table SM are ok at everything but great at nothing. Doesn't measure up to the books but then neither do any of them. The game just isn't as romantic as the novels unless of course you have a really awesome imagination, a la WD battle reports.

I remember in an old white dwarf, they had rules for "movie space marines" and yes, they were orgasmic!!!

But the standard rules no.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm pretty sure that a marine backhanding an aspect warrior across the face would give them a nasty case of broken neck.

Even if a banshee shoved thier sword right through the torso of the SM, the big guy might still shrug it off and bear hug the banshee to death. Superhuman, remember? These guys have TWO hearts!

Eldar are also superhuman, in a different way though. If it goes right through his torso, any bear hugging he's doing won't last long since his guts are falling out the bottom of his torso which isn't attached to his legs.

Aspect Armour would be braced against the backpack and neck armour, and the Helmet is quite likely one of the strongest parts (to protect the head). If a Marine backhanded an aspect warrior, it wouldn't break their neck, it would bounce off. If he was strong enough to break it, he would destroy his own gloves and then his own flesh on his hand before piercing the helmet. He's much better off going for the neck area or joints (which needs more flexibilty) though the psychoplastic will likely harden on impact.

In the same vein, he's going to have the same weak points on the armour. Eldar reactions and speed are greater than his, so if they have a bladed weapon he risks getting his armour ruptured at those points (which you can't armour up, because it will stop him from moving; like fixing the weak points in armour by covering the eyes and closing the joints making it useless). It'll still be hard for the Eldar to do without a power sword or choppa.

Overall, it's a reasonably even matchup, and goes to experience/weaponry.

Daba wrote: It'll still be hard for the Eldar to do without a power sword or choppa.

I didnt think that the choppa was a standard issue eldar weapon

Squig_herder wrote:

Daba wrote: It'll still be hard for the Eldar to do without a power sword or choppa.

I didnt think that the choppa was a standard issue eldar weapon

Neither. Woulda thought that a choppa be too crude a weapon for panzees as refined as Eldar...

Neither. Woulda thought that a choppa be too crude a weapon for panzees as refined as Eldar...

Squig_herder wrote:

Daba wrote: It'll still be hard for the Eldar to do without a power sword or choppa.

I didnt think that the choppa was a standard issue eldar weapon

It's usually carried by Striking Scorpions.

The Scorpion boss can get an 'uge choppa though, unless he's taking a power klaw (with a shoota built in) and a regular choppa.

We have to remember too that aspect warriors are not just eldar, but souped up eldar warriors. Their entire race is bioenhanced for their type of combat, being created by the Old Ones.

Marines can go through orks and your average nid type pretty well and we're forgetting their ability to heal damage. A marine may be down in game turns but its We'll Be Back effectiveness is almost as good as necrons. Further a dedicated assault marine with power weapon is quite good actually.

In short they aren't the best in the universe but they are scads better than their primary opponents-other humans- and fair equal or better than their opponents.

No doubt, no doubt. Eldar are certainly more fragile than SM (again, on a one-for-one basis) but I'm glad that the special proeprties of Eldar armor have been brought up. Again, the point is that Eldar weapons and training emphasize the advantages Eldar naturally (if you can call it that) possess as against the SM being mutated into what he is and then encased in ceramite. I'd say a somewhat experienced Guardian would probably come out on top up against a green (well, vanilla, but you get the point) SM scout, for example.

Another point, is that while it is true that banshees can probably take a tac marine one on one, I cant see this being true for marine assault specialists such as vanguard. Your average tac marine is trained to do anything, and as such is no specialist in hand to hand.

A group of elites who specialize in hand to hand would almost dominate anything the galaxy could send at them.

Another thing that helps taking down the space marines, is that they are wearing RIVETED armour. That is just incredibly stupid. There is a reason that no tanks after 1941 where riveted. Force of impact makes rivets into small bullets, killing the crew without any actual penetration.

When the space marine gets hit by stuff like slegdehammers, those rivets in his armour could suddenly become very dangerous for him, puncturing his body inside that armour of his

When I roll those 1's for my termies etc., I always envision that this is what happened (or they took a shot to their non-helmeted heads )

Riveted armor? I had not noticed.

Also, Chainswords. I'm a fencer, or I used to be before I finished college and gained 40 lbs. Imagining what combat would be like with a chainsword hurts my head. From the Marine's perspective it's not complicated, he's swinging a broadsword. From the foe's perspective, however, it changes virtually everything. You can't parry it, it'll snag the implement and rip it down the blade. If it touches you anywhere it'll shred you, and you can't very well try a beat and go on it either. It can even stab just as effectively as it slashes.

The guy holding it has armor on. If your weapon can't penetrate it, it's time to run. If it can, you have to put him on the defensive, Chainsword advantage would fade when it's used to parry, it'd be just as slow to respond to a good disengage thrust as any other one handed long heavy blade (not a matter of strength, it's the way wrists are put together).

I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Yes, but as I have said this is role playing fighting mentality, its not practical . Dexterity comes with strength and vice verse.

Daba wrote:As for being too different to humans, Marines are still made of flesh and bone.

That means very little, though. They're not made of the same flesh and bone as humans, or of Eldar. Spider silk is stronger than steel, and a Tyranid carapace made of bone can still be as hard as any other material out there.

Aspect Armour would be braced against the backpack and neck armour, and the Helmet is quite likely one of the strongest parts (to protect the head). If a Marine backhanded an aspect warrior, it wouldn't break their neck, it would bounce off. If he was strong enough to break it, he would destroy his own gloves and then his own flesh on his hand before piercing the helmet. He's much better off going for the neck area or joints (which needs more flexibilty) though the psychoplastic will likely harden on impact.

It wouldn't need to fracture the helmet to break the neck. The kinetic force would transfer through and break the neckbones. The pyschoplastics might help with that, though, at least for the better armors (lol guardians).

Overall, it's a reasonably even matchup, and goes to experience/weaponry.

I'd have to agree, assuming it's aspect warriors on the table (guardians are really a cut below - citizen levy and all). I think most Space Marines would be hard pressed to take on a Banshee or Scorpion in close combat; it's their specialty, after all, to such a degree that some of them go completely nuts with their specialization (and get promoted).

I'd probably take a Vanguard over a combat aspect, but I'd take an Exarch over one of them, so both races definitely have their own tiers.

Illumini wrote:Another thing that helps taking down the space marines, is that they are wearing RIVETED armour. That is just incredibly stupid. There is a reason that no tanks after 1941 where riveted. Force of impact makes rivets into small bullets, killing the crew without any actual penetration.

When the space marine gets hit by stuff like slegdehammers, those rivets in his armour could suddenly become very dangerous for him, puncturing his body inside that armour of his.

Hmm. All I can remember of this is one pattern that has rivets on the pauldron. Probably not too dangerous in that case (you're not going to be killing a Space Marine by shooting his pauldrons. They're ridiculous).

40kenthusiast wrote:Also, Chainswords. I'm a fencer, or I used to be before I finished college and gained 40 lbs. Imagining what combat would be like with a chainsword hurts my head. From the Marine's perspective it's not complicated, he's swinging a broadsword. From the foe's perspective, however, it changes virtually everything. You can't parry it, it'll snag the implement and rip it down the blade. If it touches you anywhere it'll shred you, and you can't very well try a beat and go on it either. It can even stab just as effectively as it slashes.

One of the big downsides is, if it comes across something too hard for it to get through it's more liable to break. I'd also guess it dulls pretty fast compared to a regular weapon. (Marines carry Power Knives too, so I'd guess they use those in a lot of situations as well.)

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Is this a picture of a real person doing something in real life?

It doesn't matter how tough an SM's bones are. Unless his brain has been converted to a different substance to normal brain, a good solid blow to the head will cause concussion.

Eidolon wrote:

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Yes, but as I have said this is role playing fighting mentality, its not practical . Dexterity comes with strength and vice verse.

A very valid point. I hadn't really applied logic to what I previously posted and I'd have to agree with yours. The only way I could think of why most humanoids wouldn't be screwed is possibly due to a faster response time. If not that then perhaps just a different style of body builds? I mean the only biology that's really been gone in depth are the Marines, Tyranids, and well that's about it right?

We don't know much about the Eldar really in terms of biology. We know the Tau are about the same as a human. IG are humans....so yeah. However, I'm really going on a bit of a tangent and supposing that Marine's followed all their fluff it's kind of hard to think they wouldn't lose in Melee combat. I mean if you grapple them I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hesistate about biting something off and they seem pretty bloody strong. Hmm...

On a side note why does Orkeosaurus show me posting things I have not posted? And no there's no real life picture. The closest thing I could imagine is a Spetsnaz doign a back flip and throwing a hatchet at the same time.

how about this example
In the grey Knight Book where the marine is on a deamon world and as he is leaving the world he (unarmoured I think) and the dark eldar (armoured at the time) have a bit of a disagreement (as in the marine feed up with the eldars #%$!

the eldar is much faster than him and gets in hits but doesnt take him down, but as soon as the marine got his hands on him the de was looking at the bad end of a super human choking and im guessing rolled a

(and then left the escapees to be rick rolled by the deamon)

Ronin-Sage wrote:I'm not aware of any fluff establishing that their armor enhances their strength(other than perhaps Striking Scorpion armor, but I'm guessing).

Space marine armor probaly would, since the exoskeletons the Americans are designing lifts rather than the wearer effectivly making him much stronger, it probably a safe bet that power armor would do the same