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Tonytiger89 wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:I'm not aware of any fluff establishing that their armor enhances their strength(other than perhaps Striking Scorpion armor, but I'm guessing).

Space marine armor probaly would, since the exoskeletons the Americans are designing lifts rather than the wearer effectivly making him much stronger, it probably a safe bet that power armor would do the same

Just to add on to this...the word Power would imply that it does do something else than simply protect them. If it was just a sheet of metal I'm sure it'd just be called armor, but since they stuck power to the front of it you can be sure that it at least assists the wearer a bit, or puts less stress on the body during trivial things. Also having a very advanced h.u.d. does not merit a "power" being added to "armor" in my book >_> Also remember Space Marine biology has it so they can pretty much endure a wide variety of extreme environments so yeah...I don't think there's an air conditioner in there.

((If there actually is an Air Conditioner in there....well...))

Power armor is practically a second skin. The fluff talks about how not only does it enhance a marines strength and endurance, but he can wear it effortlessly. He might as well be fighting naked in all that armor.

Another thing ive been trying to point out is the impressions that people have of big muscular men as being slow. Theres this impression that floats around, I blame the amount of tae kwon do and karate blackbelt factories for it, as well as anime. But the impression states that being big and strong makes you slow and un coordinated. So we get the impression of this hulk looking fellow swinging wildly, and slowly, and hes unable to maintain balance and what not.

Go find yourself a good muay thai school or a place where serious MMA guys train. I know ive sparred with a few semi pro dudes, got my ass kicked. I at 145 pounds and someone at 230 is a tough fight. You would assume that i could bob and weave and move all around the place while he just throws haymakers. Not true at all, its all about training. And marines have this extreme muscular density and ultra fast reflexs. Your eyes will not register them throwing a punch, you will feel it first.

Finally let me ask you this. If small people can destroy a bigger person by moving faster then them, why do they have weight classes in professional fights?

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I can think of a reply to this topic with an image I failed to save. It depicts a woman with "-10 Str" labeled above her. At the same time she's evading two huge gentleman and skewering their faces with her rapiers.

In short dexterity can beat strength and vice versa.

Yes, but as I have said this is role playing fighting mentality, its not practical . Dexterity comes with strength and vice verse.

A very valid point. I hadn't really applied logic to what I previously posted and I'd have to agree with yours. The only way I could think of why most humanoids wouldn't be screwed is possibly due to a faster response time. If not that then perhaps just a different style of body builds? I mean the only biology that's really been gone in depth are the Marines, Tyranids, and well that's about it right?

We don't know much about the Eldar really in terms of biology. We know the Tau are about the same as a human. IG are humans....so yeah. However, I'm really going on a bit of a tangent and supposing that Marine's followed all their fluff it's kind of hard to think they wouldn't lose in Melee combat. I mean if you grapple them I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hesistate about biting something off and they seem pretty bloody strong. Hmm...

On a side note why does Orkeosaurus show me posting things I have not posted? And no there's no real life picture. The closest thing I could imagine is a Spetsnaz doign a back flip and throwing a hatchet at the same time.

I have xenology so I know about Eldar's biology.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:On a side note why does Orkeosaurus show me posting things I have not posted?

Sorry, fixed.

And no there's no real life picture. The closest thing I could imagine is a Spetsnaz doign a back flip and throwing a hatchet at the same time.

I was being a little rhetorical; you can't stab a sword through someone's head and into someone else's head without quite a bit of strength.

Kilkrazy wrote:It doesn't matter how tough an SM's bones are. Unless his brain has been converted to a different substance to normal brain, a good solid blow to the head will cause concussion.

Well, some materials will absorb the blow more than others.

Space Marines also have the Sus-an Membrane, and the syrupy blood, although I don't know how those interact with concussions.

Eidolon's pretty much got it right, with the whole Str v. Speed thing. Coming from an extensive martial arts background (greco-roman wrestling and jiu jitsu...a few regertable bar fights, too) I can tell you that when you get that big from fighting and wrestling, it ADDS to your speed and dexterity, not subtracts.

RxGhost wrote:Eidolon's pretty much got it right, with the whole Str v. Speed thing. Coming from an extensive martial arts background (greco-roman wrestling and jiu jitsu...a few regertable bar fights, too) I can tell you that when you get that big from fighting and wrestling, it ADDS to your speed and dexterity, not subtracts.

Frankly they need a reason to encourage people to play women in RPGs. So they did this whole strength vs speed rather then strength=speed. Otherwise women would be completely outclassed by male characters. This isnt to say that any man can beat up any woman, but that a guy with similar training will beat a girl in a fight. Weapons do change this up slightly, but not by a whole lot.

A parry at an angle can make the strike almost have no force, which unless your combatant is highly skilled, will be open to a quick stab to the gut after.

It not just "Lol I are strong so I swing 'nd you die"

A Striking Scorpion VS a CC sm, I would go for the scorpion, most likely much more skilled, as you may know, aspect warriors train for literally hundreds of years.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:We know the Tau are about the same as a human.

Actually, Tau Fire Warriors, the strongest of the race, are shorter, weaker, have worse eyesight and are more fragile than the average human. It's just that darned armor, which, while not powered, provides amazing protection and has advanced optics which any guardsman woud kill for. Thus BS 3. I would just love to see a member of the air caste get full-body tackled by a grot.

Contrary to popular belief, the movie marines aren't "fluff marines" or what they shold be, but arn't for the sake of balance and gameplay, they represent the action heros in movies like Rambo or Commando.
But remeber, any space marine can punch out a tank, even in game terms.

I think the two books which do Chaos Space Marines in combat really well are Dark Apostle for Imperials vs CSM combat

and Dark Disciple for Chaos Space Marine vs Dark Eldar and Tyranid.

In the first book The Word Bearers are nigh unstoppable, I don't think a single Imperial survives close combat with any member of the Host except when they are equipped with Plasma pistols or Power weapons and then its a lot of incredible luck and well timed dodging.

However in the second book the speed of the Dark Eldar puts them at a disadvantage as both the Tyranid and Eldar get the drop on the Host and they end up losing a few people in what I consider the first rounds of combat. But once the combat drags on the marines grab a wrist or use their greater bulk and toughness to close in for the kill, pin someone to the wall or just generally overpower the Eldar defenses. The combat with the Tyranid plays out like Chaos Space Hulk

Good reads both as it was up until recently hard to find something with CSM as the primary characters

Karon wrote:
A Striking Scorpion VS a CC sm, I would go for the scorpion, most likely much more skilled, as you may know, aspect warriors train for literally hundreds of years.

and that space marine probably has equal experience, along with being physically more capable. Plus you run into the issue of the armor. I cant see a scorpion doing serious damage with his chainsword to a marine, at least not as easily as the marine can kill him. '

"unless your combatant is highly skilled"

You mean like space marine skilled?

Eidolon wrote:Frankly they need a reason to encourage people to play women in RPGs. So they did this whole strength vs speed rather then strength=speed. Otherwise women would be completely outclassed by male characters. This isnt to say that any man can beat up any woman, but that a guy with similar training will beat a girl in a fight. Weapons do change this up slightly, but not by a whole lot.

I think it's more than that; people want to be able to simultaneously play a hulking body-builder (who instead has simply become that giant by killing lots of Orcs; which is a hell of a lot of combat) and a thin, attractive rogue, and have them both be "balanced".

Having a bookish academic with a staff, a hulking barbarian with an axe and a loincloth, a thief with a sharp outfit and a rapier, and a female paladin with full plate and a longsword is considered better than having, say, four pretty large guys with shields, spears, a short sword, and sensible armor. Even though the second party would be far more effective at goblin killing in real life.

sniperjolly wrote:I would just love to see a member of the air caste get full-body tackled by a grot.

I would not want to fight a four-foot tall alien with a mouth full of fangs, a six shooter, natural sharp shooting ability, ADHD, and the ability to get kicked in the head ten times a day by a giant gorilla and think nothing of it.

gak would be so scary.

I think it's more than that; people want to be able to simultaneously play a hulking body-builder (who instead has simply become that giant by killing lots of Orcs; which is a hell of a lot of combat) and a thin, attractive rogue, and have them both be "balanced".

Right, this is true. However people start applying that philosophy to real life combat and it doesnt work out to well.

Do we get to start arguing about conflating reaction time, coordination, flexibility and physical speed of motion into dexterity, next?

Well most of the argument is that with muscles comes speed, which makes sense and is true. I mean more muscle means you get to move that ass of yours faster right? And constantly training the same punch allows you to fix your form and what not until it becomes a reflex to throw it...

On a side note Space Marines are tailored for combat after all. It's not surprising that they'd outclass practically everything. I mean all the other races are raised and go through intensive training and what not, but the Space Marines take the extra step. Not only do they recieve a considerable amount of training, seriously it's not like they don't train them, but they also augment their bodies to give them that extra advantage...So for the above fight of a SS vs. SM I'd go for the Space Marine to watch my back ._.

Oh and Orkeosaurus the picture I was talking about had the chick holding two seperate swords. Sorry about the poor discription leading to a misinterpretation of what it depicted.

Wow, this discussion has gotten really out of scope, and 70% of the replies seem to be fanboyish, no offense.

This wasn't a debate about if Eldar would be able to win out in CQC. It's a simple matter of how viable it would be to willingly engage the [fluff] SM/CSM in CQC as a being of human-level physical strength.

In any case, in regard to Eldar and SM/CSMs, this isn't "accelerated speed and [relatively] normal strength" vs. the reverse. It's "accelerated speed and [relatively] normal strength" vs. "enhanced speed and accelerated strength". That difference means everything.

The DoW2 videos is more accurate than most depictions I've seen or read about, but note that(iirc) none of the Banshees ever block or parry any attack, they simply dodge it. Were they to even take even 65% of the force of a serious-force blow, the fight would be over. Period. No amount of skill or grace would overcome that.

Now, I'm all for agility-pwnage, I personally favor the Eldar myself, and consider myself to be agile(but not particularly strong). But the cold hard truth is that blade-on-blade contact would be really, really bad.

Ronin-Sage wrote:The DoW2 videos is more accurate than most depictions I've seen or read about, but note that(iirc) none of the Banshees ever block or parry any attack, they simply dodge it. Were they to even take even 65% of the force of a serious-force blow, the fight would be over. Period. No amount of skill or grace would overcome that.

Now, I'm all for agility-pwnage, I personally favor the Eldar myself, and consider myself to be agile(but not particularly strong). But the cold hard truth is that blade-on-blade contact would be really, really bad.

The dreadnought that comes out of nowhere to crush the Banshees probably emphasises your point. Im all for agility-pwnage like you, but the Eldar got owned in that video. Did you see the one that got hit by the Assault Marine's chainsword? She aint getting back up...

Eidolon wrote:

and that space marine probably has equal experience, along with being physically more capable. Plus you run into the issue of the armor. I cant see a scorpion doing serious damage with his chainsword to a marine, at least not as easily as the marine can kill him. '

"unless your combatant is highly skilled"

You mean like space marine skilled?

Space Marines don't live as long as Eldar, though the Eldar isn't likely to have trained all his life (though likely longer than a normal human would live).

You do know the Space Marine also runs into the difficulty with the armour? Scorpion Armour is as protective as Marine Armour. Due to this, and the fact the Scorpion's chainsword is better than his means the Marine will have as much difficulty killing the Scorpion as vice versa. It is NOT easy to kill the scorpion (who is pretty tough in his own right, but the armour is a big part) for a Marine.

The Scorpion has the advantage that dakka comes out of his face too.

Daba wrote:Space Marines don't live as long as Eldar, though the Eldar isn't likely to have trained all his life (though likely longer than a normal human would live).

Space Marines are functionally immortal, and can theoretically live forever. But their duty and service is to the Emperor through war, and that's how they all meet their end. And while an Eldar hasnt spend all of his hundreds of years following the Path of the Warrior, Space Marines are indoctrinated, and trained from a very early age.


As far as the Scorpion's face-dakka, Space Marines can also spit acid from their mouths.

Ronin wrote:
Space Marines are functionally immortal, and can theoretically live forever. But their duty and service is to the Emperor through war, and that's how they all meet their end. And while an Eldar hasnt spend all of his hundreds of years following the Path of the Warrior, Space Marines are indoctrinated, and trained from a very early age.

That's not true at all, otherwise Blood Angels wouldn't be mentioned as being exceptional due to living longer than other Space Marines.

Chaplain Cassius is ancient and gnarled, and his original entry in the 2nd Edition Space Marine Codex says that Marines "show signs of extreme aging after 300 years." Marines age, and can therefore die of natural causes.

So Space Marines age; albeit they live longer than ordinary humans but shorter than Eldar (who are mentioned to have lifespans of at least 1,000; but we have examples living from the time of the fall too).

Otherwise, it makes the statement that Blood Angels have unusually long lifespans a pretty dumb comment.

As far as the Scorpion's face-dakka, Space Marines can also spit acid from their mouths.

And break their own helmet.

Or if they prefer, not wear their helmet and then completely expose their head.

I'm not really sure why exact weapons are being brought into this, but it makes me want to bring up this point.

- During the dark ages knights fought each other by essentially bashing each others skulls in. There was less slicing off limbs and more bash the guy senseless...

I'm just saying supposing that the armor was of the same quality being strong might just allow you to bash the other guy senseless first...

THEN AGAIN I COULD BE ENTIRELY WRONG BECAUSE THIS IS THE INTERNET.

I have seen different fluff of how long space marines live, most saying there immortal the only thing that contradicts that is Blood Angel fluff from what ive seen, which when says they live longer maybe there just badasses and never get killed lol . Anyways hands down SM/CSM are close combat monsters fluff wise, all the Space Marine books ive read has countless passages that SM are most at home in close combat. Gabriel and Isador of the Blood Ravens felling Biel-Tan Craftworld's Avatar just one of the times I can think of off the top of my head. SM/CSM, against your average run of the mill humanoid grunt from any race(Tau dead nm who they throw against them in CC) is toast, now getting up in the higher command structure of the Elder(Aspects), Orks(Nobs?Warboss), Necrons(Necron Lord), etc. then a standard SM/CSM will probably lose or Struggle depending on skill of said individual

The 'power' in power armour could be just to sustain the weight of the armour, however I have always had the impression that SM armour enhances the user's strength same as in Starship Troopers.

I thought that the armour in Starship Troopers was pretty low key?
(Or do you mean the cartoon one?)

The book.

The movies were better.

Especially the third one.

Oh geez the third one. Who thought a singing sky marshal was awesome?

Me.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Me.

Thats sick. I like that about you. Ever consider being a mod? What we just promoted two, next time Orky you'll get yours YOU'LL GET YOURS!

If enjoying the hideous raping of Heinlien's best book is the key to becoming a mod I hereby dislike and abhor all mods and vow never to be one.

Wait, isn't the third movie the one where they have a recruiter make a reference to getting more bodies for the meat grinder, and the survivors (there were some, weren't there?) would be used in the recruitment video whether they wanted to or not?