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Daba wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

and that space marine probably has equal experience, along with being physically more capable. Plus you run into the issue of the armor. I cant see a scorpion doing serious damage with his chainsword to a marine, at least not as easily as the marine can kill him. '

"unless your combatant is highly skilled"

You mean like space marine skilled?

Space Marines don't live as long as Eldar, though the Eldar isn't likely to have trained all his life (though likely longer than a normal human would live).

You do know the Space Marine also runs into the difficulty with the armour? Scorpion Armour is as protective as Marine Armour. Due to this, and the fact the Scorpion's chainsword is better than his means the Marine will have as much difficulty killing the Scorpion as vice versa. It is NOT easy to kill the scorpion (who is pretty tough in his own right, but the armour is a big part) for a Marine.

The Scorpion has the advantage that dakka comes out of his face too.

This, while true on table top, ignores fluff. Sure a scorpion is on even footing with a marine in hand to hand, but thats just because the marine is crossed train. 10 vanguard vets would smash 10 scorpions any day of the week. And like I have said, its all the fluff, not table top balancing that counts.

Eidolon wrote:
This, while true on table top, ignores fluff. Sure a scorpion is on even footing with a marine in hand to hand, but thats just because the marine is crossed train. 10 vanguard vets would smash 10 scorpions any day of the week. And like I have said, its all the fluff, not table top balancing that counts.

Do you have any evidence for this though?

Vanguard marines may have an advantage, but I don't think they'll have an easy time with the Scorpions.

Also, if they have an Exarch, the Marines are really in trouble, because if there's one model that really doesn't live up to the fluff, it's Exarchs. These are the zen masters of their chosen arts and are treated as squad sergeants. They've become so 'one' with their art that they fuse with their armour and don't eat or sleep, doing nothing but hone their combat techniques (of which there are thousands, both melee and ranged) and can be constantly reborn through their armour so that the most ancient of Exarchs were around in the time of the fall.

I agree. Exarchs are on the lil extreme side of obsessing over their chosen professions.

Then there's also the advantage of surprise. Scorpions are trained and patient hunters, stalking their prey. I'd safely assume that Scorpions would aim to get the jump on Marines, Vanguard or no, and that would easily shift things into their favour. They're not charging berserkers like Banshees are.

Where did you get the 'no eat or drink' for exarchs?

And to be honest, while Exarchs wear the same armour as thier anscestors, they don't really 'meld' like the Phoenix Lords do.


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@Ronin: Of course, it's kinda hard to stalk an enemy who can jump out of a Thunderhawk ontop of them.

Should have replied earlier really but...

Delephont wrote:

Coming from a martial arts background, speed is nothing without power in hand to hand.

Then may I retort that you know nothing of the variety of martial arts.
Karate (the art i study (black belt BTW)), is a balanced martial art, with techniques designs for all kinds of people;
Big and powerful, and small and fast.

I fit into the latter category. these techniques are small (mostly extreme short range), fast and accurate.

I only weigh about 54 kilograms, or about 119 pounds for those Americans out there, and I regularly win fights, because I am fast and agile.

So, power is not everything in a fight - the ultimate fighter would have a balance of the two.

Also, you don't have to block like in movies, you a) are allowed to move to aid the block, and b) only have to turn the attack aside.

Anywho, my rant is over, I apologise if i have offended anyone.

Lemon

While that may be true, we're not talking about a fast person vs a strong person. We're talking about a VERY fast person vs a VERY strong person. A SM could easily break the eldars back. While the eldar coul probably stay out of his grasp.

What about reach? I'm sure if we are talking hand-to-hand, reach will matter quite a bit? And in that area, the Sm would have the advantage.

Daba wrote:

Eidolon wrote:
This, while true on table top, ignores fluff. Sure a scorpion is on even footing with a marine in hand to hand, but thats just because the marine is crossed train. 10 vanguard vets would smash 10 scorpions any day of the week. And like I have said, its all the fluff, not table top balancing that counts.

Do you have any evidence for this though?

Vanguard marines may have an advantage, but I don't think they'll have an easy time with the Scorpions.

Also, if they have an Exarch, the Marines are really in trouble, because if there's one model that really doesn't live up to the fluff, it's Exarchs. These are the zen masters of their chosen arts and are treated as squad sergeants. They've become so 'one' with their art that they fuse with their armour and don't eat or sleep, doing nothing but hone their combat techniques (of which there are thousands, both melee and ranged) and can be constantly reborn through their armour so that the most ancient of Exarchs were around in the time of the fall.

I've always understood that the Striking Scorpions were strongest when used against 'hordes' and 'lightly armored foes' such as Imperial Guard, Orks, Tyranids etc etc. Whereas the Howling Banshees were better suited for heavily armored/tougher opponents.

Especially given the nature of their respective weapons, with SS having chainswords and that mandiblaster(shooting a different opponent in the face while you're busy chopping your first target), and the Howling Banshees wielding POWER Weapons, which go through heavy armor with ease, and using their agility to evade blows.

Striking Scorpions would probably give your average tactical marine a run for their money. While the Howling Banshees would probably be particularly deadly against marines in general(special characters and plot armor not withstanding)

Of course, Exarchs would have a much easier time overpowering marines, with the possible exception of Sgts/Capts/Any Marine not wearing a helmet.

edit: wow i cant spell or write, early in the morning

Also, isn't Power Armour better than the Average Scorpion armour (Exarch is ok though)

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, isn't Power Armour better than the Average Scorpion armour (Exarch is ok though)

Gamewise, Power Armour has always been equal or worse.

When Scorpions were first introduced, they were 1 better than Power Armour but in later editions it's been the same every time.

starbomber109 wrote:While marines might be fast and strong, if 12 eldar, 20 boyz, or 40 guardsmen pile onto you and your four mates you are going to lose, even if you are all Bruce Lee.

Just thought you should read this...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article88661.ece

lemon detective wrote:Should have replied earlier really but...

Delephont wrote:

Coming from a martial arts background, speed is nothing without power in hand to hand.

Then may I retort that you know nothing of the variety of martial arts.
Karate (the art i study (black belt BTW)), is a balanced martial art, with techniques designs for all kinds of people;
Big and powerful, and small and fast.

I fit into the latter category. these techniques are small (mostly extreme short range), fast and accurate.

I only weigh about 54 kilograms, or about 119 pounds for those Americans out there, and I regularly win fights, because I am fast and agile.

So, power is not everything in a fight - the ultimate fighter would have a balance of the two.

Also, you don't have to block like in movies, you a) are allowed to move to aid the block, and b) only have to turn the attack aside.

Anywho, my rant is over, I apologise if i have offended anyone.

Lemon

I took muay thai for one year, having had zero athletic experience. I took a class with a good 3 or 4 pro or semi pro MMA fighters. I went to a tae kwon do school to try out their stuff. I was working with the black belts first day. So me, having had 1 year experience in martial arts, was working with and outperforming some of the black belts, at one of the better reputed schools in my area.

Fights generally boil down to 3 things, strength, toughness, and nerves.
Both the marine and eldar have good nerves.
But the eldar has less strength and toughness.
And while he is probably faster, its not going to be by a lot. It wouldnt look like one of us trying to box Floyd Mayweather for instance. Here is the thing though that people always forget when talking about speed. You have to enter the enemies reach to hit them. So if I am much faster then a very strong person, I must enter his reach to strike him. And in the case of a scorpion I cant see them being able to land a crippling blow on the marine in one strike. But the marine is still very fast and well trained, his blows will be significantly worse. Even with scorpions being the strongest eldar they are no where near marine strength. So I can see them at best giving marines a run for their money. Banshees are a different story, as they can penetrate armor, so only need one or two good blows.

Finally, dont get fluff confused with table top. 10 scorpions will slaughter 10 marines in hand to hand. However i think the rules for fluff marines had them at like toughness 6, 2 wounds, FNP. So sure on table top they are comparable, fluff wise not really.

Alright, first of all, there's a difference between a parry and a block, a block implies you are using your strength against theirs to stop their blows, where a parry can be that, or using your weapon to get theirs out of the way. One of the main principals of kung-fu is that you must use an opponent of greater strengths power against them. When they attack, you do not try to catch their blocks, you accelerate them while side-stepping to toss them at the ground. Is it suicide to try to block an SM? Hell yes. Suicide to Parry? no.


Also, speed is a match for strength if you know what you're doing, otherwise you're just flailing around and slapping them faster.


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Eidolon wrote:I took muay thai for one year, having had zero athletic experience. I took a class with a good 3 or 4 pro or semi pro MMA fighters. I went to a tae kwon do school to try out their stuff. I was working with the black belts first day. So me, having had 1 year experience in martial arts, was working with and outperforming some of the black belts, at one of the better reputed schools in my area.

Look, if there's any worse example of black belt to fight, I'll let you know. The problem with Tae Kwon Do (which I do, and the only martial art that I do, btw) is most schools have a tendency to hand out belts like candy. Tae Kwon Do is one of the slowest martial arts to learn because it's all about speed and precision, in fact, most people die before they reach the highest rank. The grand master of my dojang is about 80, and he's got two more belts (and each equates to 7-10 years of training) Trust me, you aren't the only one sparring with black belts after a year of martial arts. Usually, if you're sparring kids, they get lazy around blue belt, and they get worse, and worse, and worse.

Eldar are super quick, and as crazypsyko666 said all a parry is is flicking a weapon out of the way and there is no change in difficulty wheter your opponent is strong or weak.
Ever tried fencing?

Whats more as far as I know (not that I'm a real Eldar) but thier armour is supposed to harden at the point of impact, suddenly becoming stronger than it was in that particular place. It also moves with the wearer so the Eldar's arm wouldnt twist akwardly against his armour. I imagine this probably makes it more difficult to break bones.

So, strength isn't everything, but we all know who'd win in an arm wrestle.

But again, there is the problem of reach. Although the Eldar would be fast, they would HAVE to kill or critically injure the marine in one blow. Otherwise, the SM can easily land a blow (as he has a greater reach)

lemon detective wrote:So, power is not everything in a fight - the ultimate fighter would have a balance of the two.

Theoretically, the ultimate fighter would have as much of both as possible. They may have to strive for balance when one is precluding the other, but usually they go hand in hand.

Eldar Own wrote:all a parry is is flicking a weapon out of the way and there is no change in difficulty wheter your opponent is strong or weak.

Untrue. At least, untrue for combat with chainswords/knives/fists.

Ever tried fencing?

No one would be fencing in this situation. Fencing is a formal sport, that uses weapons which can be easily turned away due to being exceptionally light, and is not particularly applicable in an unmediated combat situation, much less one that has heavily armored combatants.

Orkeosaurus wrote:No one would be fencing in this situation. Fencing is a formal sport, that uses weapons which can be easily turned away due to being exceptionally light, and is not particularly applicable in an unmediated combat situation, much less one that has heavily armored combatants.

Well, this is true. No one would be fencing, but parrying is still a very valid method of defense. A parry mixed with a dodge, especially against a heavier weapon will throw the attacker off-balance and open them up to counter attack. This is what I would think the eldar would do. Yes, the eldar would be screwed IF the SM hit, but because of their speed and skill (which they would have in spades) they could win.

(I've always thought fluff-wise the eldar would be T2, so I'm biased in fluff terms)

Think about it this way in real life terms: A big angry brute with the fighting experience of a child fighting against a smaller person with a couple dozen years of experience.... who would win? (Note, I don't think that SM have the fighting experience of children. I think in comparison to the skill, elegance and practice the Eldar aspect warriors put into practice, this is a fair comparison, so don't give me any gak about it.)

Parrying a chainsword?
Eldar are probably more fragile even than your average human fluff-wise, but not enough to be seen as T2 (that's weaker than a greatchin lol)

As for experience, the SM has trained for war his entire life in REAL combat, while the Eldar Aspect warrior has mostly trained in a dojo. (eldar equivelent ) Also, while a SM may be geared for war, the Eldar only choose an aspect as a temporary thing. Only Exarchs do nothing else.

I reckon most humanoids would be screwed. Why? Quite a few people have referred to the Eldar as fast. As far as I'm aware of, they're not that much faster. Read fulgrim, where that small group of ECs (though they did have a primarch to help). With warriors that skilled, I reckon they're roughly equally matched, with the marines having an advantage.

I would rather like to see a Eldar Dojo.

I don't think that Eldar are that weak and puny, nor do I think Marines are all that strong/buff.

The Eldar will hit the Marine faster and can react faster, but won't do as much damage as a Marine.

The Marine will be able to cause more damage per-swing, but will be slower.

In the end, I think it balances out.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Well, this is true. No one would be fencing, but parrying is still a very valid method of defense. A parry mixed with a dodge, especially against a heavier weapon will throw the attacker off-balance and open them up to counter attack. This is what I would think the eldar would do.

Parrying is certainly what the Eldar would do, and they really would be shredded in an instant if they couldn't. However, strength is always an asset. A Banshee gifted the strength of a Space Marine would be able to parry more than a regular Banshee, and the strength difference is going to count against the Eldar heavily, even if they have enough experience and speed to match or even exceed the Space Marine over all.

Yes, the eldar would be screwed IF the SM hit, but because of their speed and skill (which they would have in spades) they could win.

Certainly; and some aspects (notably Scorps) could take a few lighter hits without too much trouble.

(I've always thought fluff-wise the eldar would be T2, so I'm biased in fluff terms)

Actually, fluff-wise they're slightly tougher than humans. They're done along the LotR style instead of the D&D style; better in pretty much every way individually (but dying as a race, etc).

Think about it this way in real life terms: A big angry brute with the fighting experience of a child fighting against a smaller person with a couple dozen years of experience.... who would win? (Note, I don't think that SM have the fighting experience of children. I think in comparison to the skill, elegance and practice the Eldar aspect warriors put into practice, this is a fair comparison

I wouldn't say so. A Space Marine fights since the beginning of their initiation (at least), and doesn't stop. They usually have hundreds of years worth of experience behind them. Now Aspect Warriors are very well trained, and completely obsessed with their form of combat, but it's still only one of their Paths. They haven't been a Striking Scorpion their whole life (unless they're very young), and they probably won't be Striking Scorpion in the future. Now, Eldar are extremely long-lived, and they'll probably be a part of their Aspect for quite a long time; they're also completely dedicated to that form of combat while they're on it, so they're probably going to be better than a Space Marine in their specialization. Still they're not better than a Space Marine by that large of a margin.

Exarchs are another story.

lemon detective wrote:
Delephont wrote:

Coming from a martial arts background, speed is nothing without power in hand to hand.

Then may I retort that you know nothing of the variety of martial arts.
Karate (the art i study (black belt BTW)), is a balanced martial art, with techniques designs for all kinds of people;
Big and powerful, and small and fast.

Coming from a background of various martial arts, Karate being only one of them, I declare that you know nothing of the 'variety' of martial arts. Power is a much greater asset than speed, and reach is a big one too. Being of a small build sucks, but that's when you go for the knees... But I have to say, Karate is a good one for most people. What teaching/ryu?

U'd be exceptionally screwed if you're vs a chaos space marine. These guys have had thousands of years of experience. Sure they've been in the warp alot of the time, but they've still got much more experience than normal marines-being blessed by the dark gods and killing generally everything, from people who look at you the wrong way to Spesh Mehreenz will generally make you a ruthless, tough warrior. Tis why they have double the attacks of a Spesh Mehreen in gaming terms imo.

Hell they should have better stats alltogether.

I mean 10k years of living a brutal life? that makes for a bad warrior!

You must be mistaken; as of the new codex, Chaos Space Marines are a bunch of angry teens who couldn't cut it with the real Space Marines, and thus decided to rename themselves "The Darkkillers", glue spikes to their face, and follow two daemon princes of Slaanesh into every battle.

JERVIS! your soul is mine!!!! MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Orkeosaurus wrote:You must be mistaken; as of the new codex, Chaos Space Marines are a bunch of angry teens who couldn't cut it with the real Space Marines, and thus decided to rename themselves "The Darkkillers", glue spikes to their face, and follow two daemon princes of Slaanesh into every battle.

What teaching/ryu?

I used to be Ishinryu, but after a bit of a tiff between my Sensei and Ticky Donovan, we changed associat

we are now Kaichou-Kai, and offset of Kazen-Kai.

*Edit* and yes, ido like to attack knees (mostly just to throw them off balance)

The local ninjistu academy was a running joke where I used to train.

Skill trumps speed/strenght. And someone who is skillful, and fast / strong..well..is probably going to win! Not saying space marines are not skillful, just maybe less skilled than some opponents. While the 40k marine is a cloned perfect soldier, by human standards, an alien may have a higher level of skill means.

And as for the martial artsy talk, the first statement I wrote pertains to that too, (14 years multiple gyms and dojos). However, ever hear of punchers chance? or punchers luck? It just takes 1 shot to end it all on occasion! No matter how good you are, you can get caught flat footed a few times in your life! Take that with a grain of salt! I am by no means an "expert".


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lemon detective wrote:What teaching/ryu?

I used to be Ishinryu, but after a bit of a tiff between my Sensei and Ticky Donovan, we changed associat

we are now Kaichou-Kai, and offset of Kazen-Kai.

*Edit* and yes, ido like to attack knees (mostly just to throw them off balance)

I practiced Isshinryu for about 7 years. Its a good base foundation. I learned some boxing to compliment it. Fun stuff man. Its good to expand and see what others have to offer, for self defence and exercise. Lets you see the similarities in each discipline, its all ergonomics.