Is it possible for Eldar to fall?

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**Manchu**

Let me take a moment to clarify that a Craftworld Eldar infant if taken to Commorragh before learning anything at all about the Path of the Eldar and raised there would be a Dark Eldar. It's frustrating that I can't seem to shake you of this genetics idea, EF. Unlike Orkeo, I don't think that DE are bio-spiritually different than Craftworlders. Also your criticism of my earlier analogy is faulty. Following the Path is not the only difference between the Craftworlders and the DE. Rather, that is the only difference between well-adjusted Craftworlders and Outcasts. (DE =/= Outcasts.) The difference between Craftworlders and DE, as I have already outlined more comprehensively above, are their cultural frames of reference.

**Emperors Faithful**

Manchu wrote:Let me take a moment to clarify that a Craftworld Eldar infant if taken to Commorragh before learning anything at all about the Path of the Eldar and raised there would be a Dark Eldar. It's frustrating that I can't seem to shake you of this genetics idea, EF. Unlike Orkeo, I don't think that DE are bio-spiritually different than Craftworlders. Also your criticism of my earlier analogy is faulty. Following the Path is not the only difference between the Craftworlders and the DE. Rather, that is the only difference between well-adjusted Craftworlders and Outcasts. (DE =/= Outcasts.) The difference between Craftworlders and DE, as I have already outlined more comprehensively above, are their cultural frames of reference.

I'm sorry, I'm getting confused. I'll go back and read your posts about this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:
Ketara wrote:You still have yet to produce a single piece of substantive evidence with which to defend your claims here Manchu, which it must be said, is most unlike you.
From my perspective, neither have you. Again, it seems to me that you think the prefix "Dark" has the same meaning as the prefix "Chaos." Let me again give the example of the Craftworld Eldar who decides to rough it with the Exodites. No matter what he does, he will never be an Exodite. See Eldar Codex, pg 11: "Some Eldar leave for the distant Exodite worlds, living for many years amongst the Exodites, though they are rarely ever truly accepted by their new hosts." Even in this case, the extremely rare "acceptance" is not the same thing as becoming an Exodite. The term Exodite is a something like what we lawyers call a "closed class." It is a group that cannot be joined. Everyone who was ever or will ever be an Exodite is already determined by lineage.

I know, it's a few pages back, but your own qoute defeats your logic. It says that it is RARE that Craftworld Eldar is truly accepted by Exodites, but it DOES happen.

**Manchu**

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm sorry, I'm getting confused. I'll go back and read your posts about this.

You know, all former posts aside, is there actually even an official instance of Chaos Eldar? I've heard rumors but never seen proof. My point is that Dark Eldar =/= Chaos Eldar. Dark Eldar do not worship Slaanesh or any other Chaos god/Warp entity/aspect of Chaos.

Also, I am somewhat confused about the timeline of the Fall with respect to the Galaxy at large. The Eldar Codex makes it sound as if the Stellar Exodus of man happened before the birth of Slaanesh during or at the end of the Age of Strife and that the calming of the Warp after her/his birth is what allowed mankind to venture back into the void during the Great Crusade.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I know, it's a few pages back, but your own qoute defeats your logic. It says that it is RARE that Craftworld Eldar is truly accepted by Exodites, but it DOES happen.

Please reconsider my cannibal tribe analogy. I can be accepted (or "truly accepted," whatever) by the tribesmen--i.e., they let me live with them and teach me their language and customs--and still not be one of them for the reasons I have already given.

**Emperors Faithful**

It appears that the birth of Slaanesh 'exhausted' the warp storms surrounding Terra. That is all it says. Whether this heralds the start of the Great Crusade or if it just means that Humanity was able spread beyond stars isn't quite clarified.

**Manchu**

Actually, it is clarified:

"Ten thousand years before the Fall, the Warp was riven with storm and tempest. This made it almost impossible for Human spacecraft to travel between the stars. With the birth of the Great Enemy the Warp was temporarily calmed, its rage all but spent. A new equilibrium was readhed as Slaanesh joined the ranks of the Chaos gods. With the Warp storms around ancient Terra dispersed, Human worlds throughout the galaxy were brought into contact once more. During the Great Crusade that followed, the Emperor brought Humanity together and forged the Imperium of Man." (Codex: Edlar, pg 5, my emphases)

So, the first human star empire seems to have predated the zenith of Eldar society. Given the way each is talked about in terms of size and power (the first Human star empire was bigger than the Imperium of Man, which is still being reclaimed but the Eldar supposedly were the undisputed masters of everything), it's difficult to imagine them being able to coexist. Maybe the old empire was less . . . intolerant?

Don't want to get too off-topic here. What I am getting at is that the "degeneration" of Eldar culture into obsession with sensual and experiential gratification and the ensuing division of the Eldar people into three irreconcilable branches seems to be a more recent event than most people think.

**Emperors Faithful**

Correction: I wasn't paying ATTENTION when it was clarified.

The Eldar Empire was powerful, unstoppable one might say. But I think it's a safe bet to say that they were fairly reclusive. Humans obviously weren't a threat, and for the most part I don't think that they bothered with each other.

**Ketara**

Emperors faithful, as I said a page back, what he's saying makes sense. It doesn't invalidate what we were saying earlier in any way, we still recognise a depraved soul eating eldar that lives in Commorragh as a Dark Eldar, it's just that he has subtle mental differences from his upbringing that a Commorragh raised Dark Eldar would not have.

That's an interesting point you've raised there Manchu with regards to the chronology. The way that's phrased, the Fall occurred after mankind had spread to the stars. Not only that, apparantly mankind spread to the stars ten thousand years beforehand!

I sense a plothole here, as that makes little sense.

**Emperors Faithful**

1) Yeah, I realise that now, but I thought he was saying that these beliefs were ingrained into every Craftworld Eldar since birth. I didn't realise he meant Eldar who had grown used to the path.

2) The Eldar Empire was relatively small, right?

Powerful, but reclusive.

**Manchu**

No, the Eldar Empire spanned "hundreds of paradise worlds seeded across the stars." They apparently "held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy." (C:E pg 4)

**Emperors Faithful**

But it was never claimed to be bigger than humanities. (If you could call pre-fall humans an Empire.)

Hundreds, compared to thousands or millions, is not that much all considered.

A large portion of the galaxy? Comparably that could mean as small as a sector in Imperial terms. Is not the eye of terror where the Eldar empire once was?

**ZacktheChaosChild**

Dark Eldar= Cooler than Eldar, Neglected more than Eldar.

**Orkeosaurus**

Someone needs to get GW to sort all of this out once and for all...

**Manchu**

@Orkeo: Now you understand why there's been no new DE codex--they're still dangerous rules-wise and the fluff is too complicated.

@EF: I don't think the Eldar Empire was as small as an Imperial Sector. The core of it--the Eldar homeworlds or "Crone Worlds"--is what is not the Eye of Terror. The Exodite Worlds and Maiden Worlds seem to be all over.

**Emperors Faithful**

EDIT: Wrong Thread. I think.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:
@EF: I don't think the Eldar Empire was as small as an Imperial Sector. The core of it--the Eldar homeworlds or "Crone Worlds"--is what is not the Eye of Terror. The Exodite Worlds and Maiden Worlds seem to be all over.

But these were (mostly) founded by self-exiled Eldar hoping to get as far away from the old Eldar Empire as possible.

The 'core' as you put it, was almost certainly the old Empire, and it seems that most, if not all of it was caught in the original birth of Slaanesh.

**Morgrim**

My geography isn't very good, but is the Eye of Terra in roughly the same quadrant of the galaxy as Terra? If they're quite far apart, then each empire could have spread out quite a lot before encountering each other. Humans could also have been shunted off onto the less desirable worlds while the eldar claimed the cushy, pleasure planets.

Also, the massive warpstorms prevented widespread warp travel. I'm not sure they would have stopped short, very well known hops, only made them more dangerous. So over that 10k period, the lost planets may still have been able to continue minimal colonization of nearby worlds. Once the warpstorms faded, this rate of colonization would have increased. It took a while to get the Crusade in motion and then there was a lot of ground to cover, the expansion is likely to have continued ahead of the Crusade front itself.

There are still some massive lore plot holes still, of course.

**Emperors Faithful**

Eye of Terror. Not Terra. (Unless I just got inverse trolled

)

They are close, but not THAT close.

**Morgrim**

Emperors Faithful wrote:Eye of Terror. Not Terra. (Unless I just got inverse trolled )

They are close, but not THAT close.

No, no trolling. Just me being an idiot. And apparently a heretic.

Normally, I wouldn't care (I don't support Imperials!) but my friend just pointed out your response to me. My friend that owns a commissar costume. With a boltpistol. *gulp*

**Manchu**

So, Morgrim, you're suggesting that the Eldar could have deliberately hidden themselves from humanity's first star empire? I'm having trouble imagining this. Remember, the Stellar Exodus happened at a time of unparalleled technological development (for humans) and that it resulted in a galactic presence more powerful than the current Imperium of Man, which itself dominates the galaxy. Granted who (besides Tyranids) can really contend with humanity by the 41st millennium?

**vulken1000**

well why sholdn't they

**Thor665**

Manchu wrote:the Stellar Exodus happened at a time of unparalleled technological development (for humans)

(em)

That said - most timelines I've read on the Age of Technology indicate contact with alien races including the Eldar - where are we getting the idea they did not encounter the Eldar from? Isn't it listed in Imperium records for the early M20s that they had wars with Eldar and Orks? I do believe the Eldar Empire was always on the smaller side, even at its height (they speak of hundreds, not millions of worlds).

**Manchu**

They also speak of "across the stars" and "a large portion of the galaxy," not an Imperial Sector. Even if the Eldar Empire was only as large as a Segmentum, it would have overlapped with the first human domain (the Imperium of Man has not conquered significant amounts of new territory relative to the reclamation its old holdings). The possibilites are therefore:

(1) war (which humanity probably could not have won--maybe explaining, when coupled with Warpstorms, the fall of that original empire)

(2) peace (which would explain why Imperial Humanity is totally intolerant of xenos life)

(3) ignorance (which seems least likely to me)

**Thor665**

I'm going with option 1, as I feel near 100% certain I have read fluff pertaining to a Eldar/Human war during the original expansion.

I don't see how across the stars and hundreds of worlds is really mutually exclusive. (though overall I blame the writers not fact checking prior material). Due to GW's penchant for reworking the fluff continuity I submit that as far as the question goes it behooves us to consider more recent material to be more likely accurate then older fluff.

**Manchu**

They're not mutually exclusive. I think that it points to a widespread if not terribly dense Empire, is all. The quotes I've used are all from the current Eldar Codex.

**Morgrim**

It could have been a case of the eldar only attacking if humans set foot on 'their' worlds and (for the most part) not bothering with the mon'keigh when they weren't. Out of sight, out of mind, except for when they wanted a few to play with. After all, it wasn't as if these gnats could harm them.

On the human's side, picking a fight with a race that could wipe the floor with your petty exploration fleets is frequently seen by sensible people as a Bad Idea. Given that the choices were leave them alone or die, I can see fighting being confined to minor skirmishes. One side doesn't think the other a threat, the other biding their time until they're strong enough to win.

**Manchu**

Wasn't the Emperor around in those days? I wonder what he was up to.

**Thor665**

Consolidating mental power and learning kung-fu. Yeah, he was around - born (quick wiki check) 8,000 BC - I knew that information off the top of my head and am to be respected for it.

He just sat around a lot contemplating his navel until his big reveal in the 29th.

**Gavin Thorne**

Getting back on topic... I don't recall seeing anyone mention Ahra, the Fallen Phoenix except in passing for the last 4-5 pages. If it's not possible for a Craftworld Eldar to become a Dark Eldar, how do you explain his fall to the dark powers.

As I recall, he succumbed to the powers of Chaos and was embraced (as anyone can be) by the dark kin of Cormorragh where he established his own temples. If I've remembered incorrectly, please forgive my inability to quote text - I'm at work and haven't my books on hand.

If this is the case, a Craftworld Eldar that has reached the pinnacle of the path system, becoming a Phoenix Lord - the everliving incarnation of an aspect of the Eldar Path to which they are trapped for eternity - learned to walk a different path. If it could happen to a Phoenix Lord, could it not happen to Joeldrad the craftworld plumber?

**Ketara**

If he succumbed to the power of chaos, why would the dark eldar want anything to do with him? They're not chaos worshippers, and I doubt they'd enjoy the idea of someone setting up a network of cults in Commorragh.

**Emperors Faithful**

So...what DID happen to him then?
Did he succumb to Chaos? Or just to his darker desires? (In some senses a striking scorpion sounds a bit like a mandrake.)

**Thor665**

I'd forgotten about Arhra.

There are some who claim he is the founder of the Incubi. However everything I've ever read suggests he fell to Chaos, and Slaanesh in particular. Falling to Chaos has nothing to do with falling into the DE lifestyle - and as Ketara noted, a Slaanesh worshipper would last all of about three seconds in Commorragh.

My personal feelings on the matter is that Arhra fell to Chaos (supported by fluff) and that Incubi and other DE roles perhaps have roots in the same stories, legends, and fables the Aspect Warriors draw inspiration from.