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If you got a French passport, learnt to speak French and got the accent, learnt all about the culture and engaged in it, I'd say yeah, you probably are French.

You might say so, but I doubt the French would. They would always refer to me as" zat Americain" relative to themselves. And I'm sure DE are even more stuck up about who they consider to be one of them than the French.

I disagree. I believe the analogy is ultimately wrong.

It would be more appropriate to compare yourself to the Canadians. Why? Because The Dark Eldar and Eldar share the same origins and language.

I personally believe if you hung around Canada long enough, got the passport, acquired the accent, and lived there, unless you specifically walked up to people and introduced yourself as an American, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And then the difference is in your head, not theirs.

What makes you think that after a cataclysm that birthed a new Chaos god AND created a rift between the Materium and Warp PLUS something over ten thousand years of separation and a deep, mutual hatred their cultures would be anything alike? I really think your are underestimating how different DE are from other Eldar.

Manchu wrote:More likely they would pretend to work something out and then catch them off guard so as to capture them and kill them in the most excruciating manner possible.

And, yes, DE trust no one BUT they are at least comfortable operating with one another because they all know the rules, as it were. Even if an outsider could learn to navigate their incredibly dangerous culture I don't think they would allow it.
.

Don't forget the DE are not comfortable working with one another, in the apoc rule book they're the only race that has its own race as "Distrusful allies" even chaos works together better than different kabals it seems

Fine, then they are even less likely to work with malicious Craftworld Eldar.

Manchu, I think your concentrating too much on the culture. I doubt that vice could be called a culture.

What I'm saying is, if you enslave like a DE, dress like a DE and torture like a DE you are pretty much a DE.

Furthermore, why on Earth do you think the DE would care?

I hate to prove you wrong Manchu, but just to pull a little bit of fluff out here.....

The wildest of all the spacefaring Eldar become corsairs or raiders....As home and the Eldar path become increasingly remote, the naturally wild and amoral character of the Eldar resurfaces. Eldar pirates are quick tempered, and unpredictable, equally inclined to maganimity and wanton slaughter...Many Eldar simply lose themselves in the Webway, occasionally to be found by the Harlequins, or drifting towards the nightmare city of Commoragh...'

Whilst the regular Eldar do hate the Dark Eldar as a symbol of the depravities their society once sank to, that piece of fluff proves that Eldar do sometimes fall and join the Dark Eldar.

With regard to the Dark Eldars stance, I believe this piece of fluff summarises it quite well...

'Why do they resist?'. Barakhar's ragged voice made his assistants twitch.....It was Araquir the Haemonculus who spoke. 'They resist because they are foolish sire. They resist us, just as they resist their own true selves. They are blinded to the truth. They have seen the vile ugly beasts that run ruinous across our kingdom and they have bowed their heads to them. They lock themselves in that soulless prison that they call their home and deny themselves the pleasures and pains that are their rightful heritage. They have lost the right to rule, yet in their jealousy they cannot allow themselves to stand aside while we take what is ours.....'

'As ever, Araquir speaks words of wisdom. Well, if they will not stand aside, they must be laid low...'

From this piece of fluff we glean that the Dark Eldar treat regular Eldar with contempt, but not hate. Not only that, they would rather the Eldar stand aside and let them do as they wish, rather than be forced to kill them. This tells us that rather than seeing the Craftworld Eldar as different species, they simply see them as misguided fools and have little to no respect for them. As such, a Craftworld Eldar who wandered into Commorragh and adopted their lifestyle would be respected as much as one dark eldar ever respects another, if not more so (due to the craftworld eldar having been wise to finally see the 'reality' of the world).

I'm afraid Manchu, where the Dark Eldar are concerned, I know my fluff back to front. You can try and nitpick holes in that if you want, but I've actually got more fluff that correlates this, I just can't quite be bothered to pull it all out and type it all down.

I'm really having a hard time with why you'd think the DE wouldn't care. Craftworld Eldar and DE are mortal enemies. Even Eldar corsairs aren't likely to shake that kind of prejudice. And even if they did and wanted to worm their way into Commorragh, there's still the prejudice of Kabals like Black Heart--those that still remember the Fall and who's hatred of those that escaped is all th more bitter and deep for it. Your idea, as well as Ketara's, seems to be Eldarark Eldar::Space Marines:Chaos Space Marines. I think you'll find upon reading over the fluff that the DE situation is a but more intense than the Horus Heresy or individual incidents of corruption.

Ketara wrote:I hate to prove you wrong Manchu, but just to pull a little bit of fluff out here.....

The wildest of all the spacefaring Eldar become corsairs or raiders....As home and the Eldar path become increasingly remote, the naturally wild and amoral character of the Eldar resurfaces. Eldar pirates are quick tempered, and unpredictable, equally inclined to maganimity and wanton slaughter...Many Eldar simply lose themselves in the Webway, occasionally to be found by the Harlequins, or drifting towards the nightmare city of Commoragh...'

Ah, see here. It doesn't exactly say that they'll be welcomed with open arms...

@Ketara: Your interpretation of those passages requires some assumptions and leaps in argument. Sorry but I don't find those examples very convincing.

'If they will not stand aside...'. This = He would rather they did stand aside, or at least gave them the option of standing aside. This =He's actually not immensely keen on slaughtering Eldar. This in turn= He probably doesn't hate Eldar. Why? Because if you hate someone, and are gifted with the opportunity to slaughter them, you'll usually take it.
Case in point I think.

Also, if you examine the Haemonculus's tone there, it's more one of contempt. Not outright hatred. I'm not saying an Eldar would be welcomed with open arms in Commorragh, but that's because no-one is welcomed with open arms in Commorragh. Commorragh is a horrible place where everyone backstabs and double deals each other on a regular basis.

To turn this around slightly Manchu, I've provided sufficent evidence to indicate the Dark Eldar would be (speaking in the most general possible terms, as they are Dark Eldar after all) accepting of Craftworld Eldar wanderers and outcasts, if they adopted the Dark Eldar way of life. You have yet to produce any fluff or evidence to conflict with this, other than 'I think this'.

If you can produce two substantive pieces of evidence to contradict me, I will quite happily go through my big stack of old white dwarfs and pull out the pieces of fluff that I know are in there to establish this definitively. Until then, I can't be bothered, as it's a very big pile.

Okay, let's straighten this out a bit. I think it is simply a matter of understanding the timeline rather than quoting things and then claiming your interpretation is what is actually being communicated.

Before the fall, nearly all Eldar were decadent hedonists. The first lot to flee (never became hedonists) were the Exodites. The second wave (repentent hedonists) were the Craftworld Eldar. Of those who survived the birth of Slaanesh, the ones that escaped into the Webway became the Dark Eldar.

Keeping in mind that the Craftworld Eldar left before the birth of Slaanesh, it becomes apparent that the Path system was not created in response to the Fall but rather simply to the decadence of pre-Fall Eldar society or, more specifically, to the "wanton" nature of the Eldar psyche. It is unknown when the Eldar first began using Spirit Stones but given that the only source of Waystones are the Crone Worlds (the Eldar homeworlds) and that Craftworlds and their Infinity Circuits predate the Fall, it is more likely than not that Eldar did not begin using them as a means to escape Slaanesh's thirst but rather as a means to prevent their souls from slipping into the Warp more generally. Having turned away from Eldar society in general, the Craftworld Eldar therefore represent a distinct cultural group even before birth of Slaanesh.

The Dark Eldar only begin to exist after the birth of Slaanesh. They are not simply the same as the decadent pre-Fall Eldar but are those who not only survived the Fall but also escaped into the Webway and founded Commorragh and have been endlessly drawn out from it by the unquenchable Thirst. It is no surprise that they see themselves as the real Eldar, the Eldar in their "natural state" as it were, but rather than being an objective perspective this is a product of their arrogance. After all, Eldar were not always a decadent race nor were they always troubled by the Thirst.

As to the tone of the Haemonculus, he makes a clear distinction between "us" and "them" in the last sentence you quoted. I do not detect any willingness on his part to accept the Craftworld Eldar. It seems to me that he is reminding his master that there can be no such reunion.

Finally, regarding your first piece of evidence, taken from the Eldar Codex, let me quote a sentence from the paragraph that precedes it:

To the ignorant, there is little to distinguish between the ships of the craftworlds, the Corsair fleets of Outcasts, and the Dark Eldar pirates.

Make of that what you will.

*sighs*
Manchu, I understand the timeline perfectly, having laid it out many many times before in other Dark Eldar fluff threads for those not so well versed in it.

Allow me to reiterate the initial question here.

I can't find any mention of this anywhere in the fluff. Can an Eldar fall to the path of violence and depravity and thereby become a Dark Eldar? Or was it just a one-off thing when the Dark Eldar managed to escape Slaanesh's birth and subsequent soul-feasting?

To which my reply is quite simply this. Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar are the same species. They are physically identical. Dark and craftworld are just tags denoting where they come from. You and I are both humans despite originating from different areas of the world.

I'm not too sure you understand what the Thirst is. It is nothing more than a by-product of ingesting refined souls. If you took a far-seer, and fed him souls for thirty years, he too would begin to develop the Thirst. It is not a physical distinction between the two. Dark Eldar are not born with the Thirst.

As to the tone of the Haemonculus, he makes a clear distinction between "us" and "them" in the last sentence you quoted. I do not detect any willingness on his part to accept the Craftworld Eldar. It seems to me that he is reminding his master that there can be no such reunion.

Who said he was willing to 'accept' the Craftworld Eldar? I merely said that he was talking with an air of contempt, and disgust rather than outright hatred. What I said, if you actually read my post, is that the Dark Eldar society would be accepting (as in, it would treat them with equal respect as they would one born in the Dark City) of a regular Eldar who wandered in, adopted their lifestyle, and began to ingest souls and stab backs with the rest of them. So yes, he does indeed make a clear distinction between 'them' and 'us'. But to quote a farmer, what's that got to do with the price of cheese? That's why you have Eldar and Dark Eldar codexes, they are separate cultures. That has absolutely nothing to do with how they would treat a craftworld Eldar who was not 'foolish', who did not 'resist their true self' and who was not 'blinded to the truth'.

If a Craftworld Eldar moved to Commorragh, and engaged in all the practices and cultural aspects of the 'Dark' Eldar, he would for all intents and purposes be a 'Dark' Eldar. They are all the same species, the prefix of 'Dark' merely refers to which particular branch of Eldar culture they espouse.

As to the chronology of the Path system and the spirit stones, there are indications they were actually developed after the fall, but that's a whole other topic and pointless to the question on hand. Along with the rest of the Eldar history.

The last comment is one that refers to the humans that cannot differentiate between Craftworld Eldar corsairs, Dark Eldar corsairs, and renegade Corsairs, as they are all Eldar. Therefore in many an Imperial citizens mind, they all equal 'Eldar Corsair'. Which is again, completely irrelevant, as the viewpoint of Imperial citizens has nothing to do with the topic on discussion.

You still have yet to produce a single piece of substantive evidence with which to defend your claims here Manchu, which it must be said, is most unlike you.

I totally agree with Manchu. It is near impossible for any eldar to turn the dark eldar. It would never happen. Plus all the eldar are taught on how to avoid this. but some do turn into corsairs and priates only because they want to regain their empire or just for the craftworld they respond to. Look at prince Yriel. He came back. He was very vicious as a priate. the eldar are kinda like the alpha legion. always planning ahead. (except in some cases.)
so how can they turn traitor? Where not talking about humanity here.
This the eldar they are beings of massive intellegence they are smarter than the dark eldar.

I agree wholly with Ketara on this one.

The only difference between an Eldar and a Dark Eldar is the Path. And the OP has asked us that if he strays from the path could he possibly become a Dark Eldar?

It seems obvious that the answer is yes. Think of it more as a change of religeons, if a Christian were to convert to Satanism or something, then they would be accepted (if not trusted). Christians and Satanists are not two different species, they are people following two different belief systems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:Plus all the eldar are taught on how to avoid this. but some do turn into corsairs and priates only because they want to regain their empire or just for the craftworld they respond to. Look at prince Yriel. He came back. He was very vicious as a priate.

Many stray from this path, and not all become corsairs for noble reasons. Yriel was one of those noble corsairs, but canon states that while one corsair may be magnamonius and merciful, another could be cruel and downright sadistic.

This the eldar they are beings of massive intellegence they are smarter than the dark eldar.

*facepalm*

You know Manchu, whilst we might be disagreeing here, all I can say is, at least unlike Asherian, you have a grasp of Eldar history. Do you want to enlighten him, or shall I?

And Emperor, that's actually a very excellent way of putting it. If a Jew becomes a Protestant, will all Protestants always go about shaking their heads, and muttering about how the convert is 'not a proper Protestant'? Both entail very different ways of life, yet one can move from one to another. A Jew can become a Protestant, because at the end of the day, they are the same species, and can change their lifestyle. Although it must be said, once a 'Dark' Eldar, if the Thirst has a good grip on you, you don't really have the option of changing back again. Kind of a one way path.

Ketara wrote:You still have yet to produce a single piece of substantive evidence with which to defend your claims here Manchu, which it must be said, is most unlike you.

From my perspective, neither have you. Again, it seems to me that you think the prefix "Dark" has the same meaning as the prefix "Chaos." Let me again give the example of the Craftworld Eldar who decides to rough it with the Exodites. No matter what he does, he will never be an Exodite. See Eldar Codex, pg 11: "Some Eldar leave for the distant Exodite worlds, living for many years amongst the Exodites, though they are rarely ever truly accepted by their new hosts." Even in this case, the extremely rare "acceptance" is not the same thing as becoming an Exodite. The term Exodite is a something like what we lawyers call a "closed class." It is a group that cannot be joined. Everyone who was ever or will ever be an Exodite is already determined by lineage. Exodites are the people who left the Crone Worlds in rejection of cultural decadence before the Fall and there descendants. A Craftworld Eldar, even one living among them and even one "truly" accepted by them, is still just a Craftworld Eldar living with some Exodites that may or may not "truly" accept him. The same is true of Dark Eldar. "Dark" Eldar are not merely Eldar who are decadent like Chaos Marines being Marines who have fallen to Chaos. Dark Eldar are the people who survived the Fall, escaped into the Webway, built Cammorragh, and raid from their into the Materium to find souls and their descendants. (As an aside, I think your descirption of the Thirst is a bit off. It was my understanding that all Eldar are "born with it," to use your phrase, and the Craftworld Eldar are protected from it by Spirit Stones + Infinity Circuits while the Exodites are protected by Spirit Stones + World Spirits.) Even if a Craftworld Eldar was "truly" accepted by Dark Eldar, he would still only be a Craftworld Eldar living amonst Dark Eldar. So to answer Cheese's question, again, a "fallen" Eldar (presumably, one who throws away his Waystone and commences to slaving for souls) does not become a Dark Eldar. He's just a nasty Craftworld Eldar acting like a Dark Eldar just as, in my example of trying to be a Frenchman, I'd be that American guy with the French passport who speaks not terrible French.

Very carefully.

I think eldar could turn to the dark side, just not very easily though.

Manchu wrote:Same species means nothing. After being born and bred in the US of A, can I turn into a Korean? How about French? How about if I put on a beret and drink some wine?

With the right paper work and a good plastic surgeon.

Saying that Craftworld and DE are mortal enemies is completely wrong. If anything, they both have a mortal enemy in the necrons.

They don't like each other. Sometimes they attack and kill each other. At other times they're work together, but always keeping one eye on their backs (DE are obviously better at that since they do it their entire lives anyway).

Would a group of Craftworlders be welcomed with open arms? No, but they may be accepted as 'business associates', functioning on the outskirts as just another minor kabal. Over time, as new eldar are born and raised in that culture, they may become more and more embedded until they are true DE. The same example as the american in france; if they bred with french, than their children or at least their grandchildren would be seen as properly french.

Part of me wonders if a more likely option is eldar of an already decadnt bent, such as corsairs, getting captured by a kabal. Some would obviously be consumed or tortured in many ways, etc. But could some be 'broken' and accepted somewhat? I could see the DE doing something like forcefully removing each soulstone in turn, enjoying the suffering it causes, leaving the eldar weakened and desperate (since their own souls are leeched just like DE souls, they just catch them in the soulstones as they go and keep them close so it doesn't affect them) and dumping a mangled and weakened slave at their feet; whispering that they are fading and if they wish to preserve themselves they know what they must do, pressing a knife into their hands and taunting until they make the kill and struggle to consume the fleeing essence, feeling the resulting rush that no craftworlder does, bound and restrained by their own will as they are, a blossoming addiction as they begin to crave those sensations again...

Even if it isn't strictly fluff, it's an idea I take FAR too much intricate pleasure in.


Oh, and in Apoc DE can take corsair pirate flyers, so they definitely work together at times. Probably a simple mutual benefits arrangement.

The religious conversion idea is exactly the wrong way to look at it IMO. To use the Jewish example, a Christian converting to Judaism may profess the Jewish faith but is s/he Jewish culturally? Nope. And if you don't believe me, go ahead and ask some Jews this question. They'll tell you all about how the Jews, descending from a very particular (genetically proven) lineage are a people set apart from all other peoples. This is why I used the example of trying to "convert" to becoming a Korean or Frenchman. No matter how well I speak French, how long I live in France, whether or not I have ze French citienship, I will be forever known to my French neighbors and friends as that American ex-pat.

@Manchu: Actually, the Thirst is sort of 'grown' into. At a very young age a DE will feel nothing, but (and this is mentioned somewhere in DE canon) as they grow older they feel the claws of Slaanesh sinking in and need to sacrifice more and more souls to stave it off.

(The example was a Dracon trying to overthrow her own archaon, the Archaon defeated her and told how her, compared to his, her thirst was a mere grumble, at that age he needed hundreds of souls every day.)



I don't quite understand why you think the DE are a 'closed society'.

Manchu wrote:The religious conversion idea is exactly the wrong way to look at it IMO. To use the Jewish example, a Christian converting to Judaism may profess the Jewish faith but is s/he Jewish culturally? Nope. And if you don't believe me, go ahead and ask some Jews this question. They'll tell you all about how the Jews, descending from a very particular (genetically proven) lineage are a people set apart from all other peoples. This is why I used the example of trying to "convert" to becoming a Korean or Frenchman. No matter how well I speak French, how long I live in France, whether or not I have ze French citienship, I will be forever known to my French neighbors and friends as that American ex-pat.

Where are you getting the religious conversion idea from?

I'm sorry, Manchu, but again, you have nothing to substantiate your claim. Okay, fine, you choose to ignore my comments about what the Archon has said in favour of your own argument. You choose to discount every piece of evidence I have given you you. Sure. That means that at worst, I have a theory of equal weight to yours, as you have provided nothing to give your argument any substantiation. No fluff, nothing.

Your fluff on the Exodites is again, irrelevant. We're not talking about other branches of society here. We are talking about Eldar from any other walk of life joining the Dark Eldar society in Commorragh. I'll happily concede that a Dark Eldar could not become an Eldar, or a Craftworld Eldar an exodite. It's still all completely irrelevant though.

Even if a Craftworld Eldar was "truly" accepted by Dark Eldar, he would still only be a Craftworld Eldar living amonst Dark Eldar.

So hang on. Even if a Craftworld Eldar joined in Dark Eldar society, was accepted by them, and lived the rest of his life like them, he wouldn't be one? What? The 'Dark' is nothing more than a prefix referring to their cultural lifestyle. They are all still Eldar!

As to the Thirst, it's a common misconception you have there. Dark Eldar ingest souls to extend their lifespan, and shore up their own souls. However, as time goes on, a craving begins to develop, and greater and greater numbers of souls are required. Like a potent drug, the ecstasy once experienced over one soul diminishes. Not only that, the 'flavour' of a soul, if sampled too much, again, diminishes. So the Haemonculus torture people in order to make their souls 'tastier'. The more you extend your life by ingesting souls, the more souls you need to ingest to extend your life. It's a cruel never-ending vicious cycle. However, if you never ingest the souls in the first place, the problem never occurs. The Dark Eldar method of avoiding Slaanesh is to ensure that they don't die. Simple as that.

EDIT: As a Jew, I understand where you are coming from Manchu.
However, the flaw with that argument is that unlike the Exodites, who as you pointed out, demand you must be an exodite culturally, you have no proof that the Dark Eldar require the same. In
fact, the evidence appears to contradict it.

Morgrim wrote:Where are you getting the religious conversion idea from?

Emperors Faithful wrote: Think of it more as a change of religeons, if a Christian were to convert to Satanism or something, then they would be accepted (if not trusted). Christians and Satanists are not two different species, they are people following two different belief systems.

Morgrim wrote:

Part of me wonders if a more likely option is eldar of an already decadnt bent, such as corsairs, getting captured by a kabal. Some would obviously be consumed or tortured in many ways, etc. But could some be 'broken' and accepted somewhat? I could see the DE doing something like forcefully removing each soulstone in turn, enjoying the suffering it causes, leaving the eldar weakened and desperate (since their own souls are leeched just like DE souls, they just catch them in the soulstones as they go and keep them close so it doesn't affect them) and dumping a mangled and weakened slave at their feet; whispering that they are fading and if they wish to preserve themselves they know what they must do, pressing a knife into their hands and taunting until they make the kill and struggle to consume the fleeing essence, feeling the resulting rush that no craftworlder does, bound and restrained by their own will as they are, a blossoming addiction as they begin to crave those sensations again...

Even if it isn't strictly fluff, it's an idea I take FAR too much intricate pleasure in.

Hmmm, good story. MOAR!

@Ketara: You really haven't offered any substantiation, just an interpretation that I do not agree with for the reasons I've stated. You are correct to say that we both have "theories" but whether they have equal weight in terms of logical value is another matter. Clearly, you think yours outweighs mine and I think the opposite. They are certainly equal, however, in terms of canonical standing as neither of us can produce an example of a Craftworld Eldar becoming a Dark Eldar or a statement saying that it's impossible.

As to your comments about the Thirst, I have a couple of questions: Didn't Slaanesh suck the souls out of the vast majority of the Eldar upon her/his birth? Isn't s/he called by all Eldar "She Who Thirsts"? I know Eldar fear being consumed by Slaanesh above all other things (except maybe the extinction of their way of life).

yes, you are correct. Slaanesh glutted herself on the Eldar souls. Which is why most of the craftworlds and Exodite worlds were okay, becuase she was so fattened.

Apparently, Slaanesh spared the DE becuase they have given her so much more pleasure through the pain inflicted on others.

Ultimately our disagreement comes down to this Manchu. You believe that the Dark Eldar, like the Exodites, are a select society that refuse to fully recognise any who were not born into it, and that the prefix of 'dark' is not just a description of their lifestyle, but also their genetic heritage.

That's fair enough. There's no case in fluff stating the exact contrary to this. I disagree with this, as I believe that the prefix of 'dark' is nothing more than a cultural description, but again, like you, there is nothing to directly state this. It's a bit too specific with regards to what importance you attach to grammatical prefixes to have been included in the codex.

With regards to the Dark Eldars view of the Eldar, even if one considers your version of Dark Eldar heritage and culture to be correct, I still believe I have provided enough adequate proof with my Archon's quote, to indicate the Dark Eldar's attitude towards the Craftworld Eldar. One of contempt, and disgust, rather than outright hatred. Concede me this at least.

You are correct on your comments on Slaanesh, I presume the Thirst was named after Slaanesh's title of 'She Who Thirsts', as both Slaanesh, and the desire to eat other people's souls have something in common!
The Dark Eldar do, I presume, fear Slaanesh as much as the next Eldar fellow, but rather than encasing their their spirits in big rocks or world tombs, they simply try and live forever. An interesting solution, it must be said. Slaves are trafficked through the Dark Eldar cities in the webway to such a huge extent, that if you gain any kind of power or influence, you can prolong your life indefinitely.