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I guess the constant drow-style backstabbing helps keep the numbers down at the higher echelons.

TBH, pg 5 of Eldar Codex that Thor refers to supports Orkeo's thought about distance from the Crone Worlds being a major component of surviving. This is totally at odds with the account in "Torturer's Tale" as described. And could you PM me the text, Thor?

blaktoof wrote:Well thats of course assuming the dark eldar arent mating and proliferating

when you setup conditions to increase lifespan, eventually with no change in birthrate your population will increase instead of decrease. But as people are living longer there is most likely going to be a increase in birthrate as well.

They would have to be super space Mormons for every Archon to be the great grandparent of their entire kabal.

Manchu wrote:TBH, pg 5 of Eldar Codex that Thor refers to supports Orkeo's thought about distance from the Crone Worlds being a major component of surviving. This is totally at odds with the account in "Torturer's Tale" as described. And could you PM me the text, Thor?

It also basically says everyone died at "ground zero" which we know to be untrue. I think what the Eldar are unaware of is the connection to the pleasure cults and the death rates. I mostly quoted it to show that many Craftworld Eldar also died in Slaanesh's birth. If you accept most pleasure cultists died, and that many Craftworlders (who were semi into the cults to various degrees) died and that very few, if any, Exodites died, and that Vect, at basically ground zero, lived along with others that became DE I submit it supports the concept that those more into the cults died first rather then those closest to the birth point.

PM a coming.

How do we know Vect was at ground zero?

Please note I said "basically" at ground zero.

According to Torturer's Tale he served in "one of the most powerful temples of delight" and was a special sacrifice on a night of debauchery that probably served as the spark for Slaanesh's conflagration.

At this point we are obligated to assume that one of the most powerful pleasure temples would be at or near the center point where Slaanesh appeared, thus putting him and many other survivors at a point exceedingly closer to the blast then the many Craftworlders who also died. People all around Vect died, so it wasn't that he was in a special sealed place either. Therefore we know that what saved him was something else that didn't exist for certain Craftworlders even.

I submit it was that he wasn't as deep into the pleasure cults - since he and most of the other survivors were described as children. My theory seems to match more of the available fluff then a concept that distance was the sole factor. Distance *might* be a factor, but to survive Slaanesh's birth there clearly had to be other major considerations - otherwise Vect would not have lived while the Eldar cutting his throat died.

As I said, I think both are a factor, not simply distance.

We don't really know where "one of the most powerful temples of delight" is. Do we even know a "temple of delight" is a single building instead of a cult throughout the empire? Or that a singe more powerful temple isn't more likely to form on the outskirts of the empire where there is less competition for members?

Hmmm, good point.


What is also interesting is that other races were affected by the birth of Slaanesh. Psykers of all sorts went insane as their people died. (It says that somewhere...)

Orkeosaurus wrote:Do we even know a "temple of delight" is a single building instead of a cult throughout the empire?

I believe it is fairly clear it is a building or at most a collection of buildings as part of a complex. Torturer's tale describes him taking over his cult immediately after the fall - so they all had to be centrally located, and then describes how he went out and fought others who were part of other cults that were trying to take over. He also points out how the building they are currently occupying was at one point the heart of his new cult temple which they built when they moved into the Warp. Even if we accept that they use the term temple in a way I might say 'The Catholic Church' he still was the main course sacrifice for that temple - which means he would have had to have been at their primary sacrifice/worship spot which for a star spanning temple that was one of the most powerful would certainly suggest strong evidence that it was at the heart of the Empire.

Or that a singe more powerful temple isn't more likely to form on the outskirts of the empire where there is less competition for members?

Population centers and political methods suggest differently to my mind, though I will admit it's not spelled out explicitly - I still feel my interpretation is quite functional and more likely.

Also, I will note that Craftworld Eldar histories say everything was destroyed - and then say "wow, where did these Dark Eldar blokes come from?" If the DE blokes came from distant planets that were not ravaged by Slaanesh I question where the surprise would be. If they came from the heart of the empire that was, as far as the Eldar knew, totally wiped out, it explains their surprise.

Sounds kinda funny. Sorta like 'Surprise Evil Twin!'

Thor665 wrote:
I believe it is fairly clear it is a building or at most a collection of buildings as part of a complex. Torturer's tale describes him taking over his cult immediately after the fall - so they all had to be centrally located, and then describes how he went out and fought others who were part of other cults that were trying to take over.

Actually it just says that he was the first of his cult to react and that he rallied those around his temple.

He also points out how the building they are currently occupying was at one point the heart of his new cult temple which they built when they moved into the Warp.

What does that have to do with it?

Even if we accept that they use the term temple in a way I might say 'The Catholic Church' he still was the main course sacrifice for that temple

We don't know that, only that he was a sacrifice of some sort.

- which means he would have had to have been at their primary sacrifice/worship spot which for a star spanning temple that was one of the most powerful would certainly suggest strong evidence that it was at the heart of the Empire.

Population centers and political methods suggest differently to my mind, though I will admit it's not spelled out explicitly - I still feel my interpretation is quite functional and more likely.

Is Ophelia VII near the center of the Imperium? Is New York City near the center of the United States? Was Jerusalem near the center of Christian Europe?

Important things are far away from the center of nations all the time.

Also, I will note that Craftworld Eldar histories say everything was destroyed - and then say "wow, where did these Dark Eldar blokes come from?" If the DE blokes came from distant planets that were not ravaged by Slaanesh I question where the surprise would be.

Eh? The planets would still have been ravaged by Slaanesh, just not to the point where everything was immediately sucked into The Warp and destroyed entirely by the sun-extinguishing birth.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Thor665 wrote:
I believe it is fairly clear it is a building or at most a collection of buildings as part of a complex. Torturer's tale describes him taking over his cult immediately after the fall - so they all had to be centrally located, and then describes how he went out and fought others who were part of other cults that were trying to take over.

Actually it just says that he was the first of his cult to react and that he rallied those around his temple.

...um, yes? I'm sorry - I thought your argument was that this was possibly not the center of the powerful cult, but that the temple he was in was simply perhaps an outlying temple - I was arguing against this and quoting the above for evidence. I apparently misunderstood your original point, could you rephrase it?

He also points out how the building they are currently occupying was at one point the heart of his new cult temple which they built when they moved into the Warp.

What does that have to do with it?

It is further evidence that they use the term temple to describe a singular building of a pleasure cult - as I said, apparently I misunderstood what you were driving at if this doesn't make sense to you.

Even if we accept that they use the term temple in a way I might say 'The Catholic Church' he still was the main course sacrifice for that temple

We don't know that, only that he was a sacrifice of some sort.

I disagree, he was part of a sacrifice to celebrate an event that happens once in a millennium for one of the most powerful pleasure cults. I stand by this as solid evidence he was part of the main event at the major temple for that cult, which was one of the most powerful.

Is Ophelia VII near the center of the Imperium? Is New York City near the center of the United States? Was Jerusalem near the center of Christian Europe?

Important things are far away from the center of nations all the time.

Earth isn't at the "center" of the Imperium either because of it's location in the galaxy and the Imperium's theoretical control of said galaxy, New York is near the center of the original America. Jerusalem is at the heart of the areas controlled by religions that base strong importance upon it. That said this is all semantics, and I'm willing to accept your argument - but while we're at it the official fluff says the rent made in space "completely encompassed the Eldar realms of old" so if the Eye of Terror completely encompassed their realms it's not like we're talking a truly vast empire here. I believe that the temple Vext was at was near ground zero and have pointed out where I believe the fluff supports this theory. I have never claimed to have absolute fluffy proof - and indeed the location of the temple could just have likely been on Necromunda as in the Eldar empire. I just believe my standpoint requires less unlikely circumstances.

Also, I will note that Craftworld Eldar histories say everything was destroyed - and then say "wow, where did these Dark Eldar blokes come from?" If the DE blokes came from distant planets that were not ravaged by Slaanesh I question where the surprise would be.

Eh? The planets would still have been ravaged by Slaanesh, just not to the point where everything was immediately sucked into The Warp and destroyed entirely by the sun-extinguishing birth.

I agree - but why then would the appearance and survival of the Dark Eldar be described by the Craftworld Eldar as "a great mystery."

If it's a great mystery then that suggests that the Craftworld Eldar fully expected all Dark Eldar to be dead - if there were planets of Dark Eldar farthur from the blast that were ravaged but not wiped out, why would it be so strange to have survivors?
If survivors came from a blast zone that no one survived it would indeed be a great mystery that anyone survived.

That's why I believe the DE come from the empire that was "totally consumed" as opposed to a bunch of scattered worlds that received heavy but not total damage. It would seem illogical to suggest that Craftworlders would not have done some investigation into the devestation of their old empire, and I really do not think it likely that a bunch of DE on a bunch of different worlds would not have been noticed before then. According to Craftworld history it is them and the Exodites and everyone else was dead.

Thor665 wrote:
...um, yes? I'm sorry - I thought your argument was that this was possibly not the center of the powerful cult, but that the temple he was in was simply perhaps an outlying temple - I was arguing against this and quoting the above for evidence. I apparently misunderstood your original point, could you rephrase it?

It is further evidence that they use the term temple to describe a singular building of a pleasure cult - as I said, apparently I misunderstood what you were driving at if this doesn't make sense to you.

I was saying it could describe either a single building or a collection of buildings.

For instance, I was a part of the Lutheran church. I set my church on fire. I built a new church a little down the road.

In the first instance it refers to an organization, in the second two to buildings.

I disagree, he was part of a sacrifice to celebrate an event that happens once in a millennium for one of the most powerful pleasure cults. I stand by this as solid evidence he was part of the main event at the major temple for that cult, which was one of the most powerful.

Why?

A significant event such as this is no doubt is one of the times in which even minor temples sacrifice a great deal of people. The large number of people being sacrificed also means that it's unlikely Vect was somehow a "special sacrifice", who would need to have been brought to the central temple.

Earth isn't at the "center" of the Imperium either because of it's location in the galaxy and the Imperium's theoretical control of said galaxy,

All the more evidence for places of power to not necessarily be in the middle of an empire.

New York is near the center of the original America.

But not modern America. We don't know the territorial history of the Eldar empire.

Jerusalem is at the heart of the areas controlled by religions that base strong importance upon it.

Well, if we go by modern religions we end up with the round earth problem.

That said this is all semantics, and I'm willing to accept your argument - but while we're at it the official fluff says the rent made in space "completely encompassed the Eldar realms of old" so if the Eye of Terror completely encompassed their realms it's not like we're talking a truly vast empire here.

True.

I believe that the temple Vext was at was near ground zero and have pointed out where I believe the fluff supports this theory. I have never claimed to have absolute fluffy proof - and indeed the location of the temple could just have likely been on Necromunda as in the Eldar empire. I just believe my standpoint requires less unlikely circumstances.

I'm not saying the planet would have been outside the Eye, it pretty much states outright in ATT that it's in there. I just think it was likely nearer to the edge of the Eye than the deep rifts in the middle.

I agree - but why then would the appearance and survival of the Dark Eldar be described by the Craftworld Eldar as "a great mystery."

If it's a great mystery then that suggests that the Craftworld Eldar fully expected all Dark Eldar to be dead - if there were planets of Dark Eldar farthur from the blast that were ravaged but not wiped out, why would it be so strange to have survivors?
If survivors came from a blast zone that no one survived it would indeed be a great mystery that anyone survived.

That's why I believe the DE come from the empire that was "totally consumed" as opposed to a bunch of scattered worlds that received heavy but not total damage. It would seem illogical to suggest that Craftworlders would not have done some investigation into the devestation of their old empire, and I really do not think it likely that a bunch of DE on a bunch of different worlds would not have been noticed before then. According to Craftworld history it is them and the Exodites and everyone else was dead.

Presumabley the planets were wiped out, just not immedately; the Dark Eldar would have migrated into the webway while those who didn't make the pilgramage went insane or withered away or were otherwise destroyed by Slaanesh. By the time the Craftworlder's find anything it's just ash and corpses left.

At this point, it'd be helpful if you'd both restate your positions without all of the multi-quoting. It's hard to follow exactly for what each of you is arguing.

Yeah, good point, it's gotten a little too long.

Summary: My theory is that the Dark Eldar were those of the Eldar empire who survived the birth of Slaanesh due to a combination of distance from the epicenter (still placing them within the Eye of Terror) and their relative lack of descension into the pleasure cults. However, in surviving this they became fundamentally corrupted to a level beyond that of the Craftworlders and Exodites, which causes their souls to wither away in life. This means that soul stones are ineffective at saving them and so they fall back on the only thing that is left, which the consumption of other souls to replenish their own.

In this regard a Craftworlder could never become a true Dark Eldar, although a corsair could likely integrate into the society to a fair degree.

Position on which point?

Um, to briefly restate;

I believe the Slaanesh Eldar soul eating had very little, if anything, to do with distance from any "epicenter" point but that such soul consumption happened due to connection with pleasure cults (supported in ATT due to Vect's survival, also explains how many Craftworld Eldar were still eaten despite not being in the empire anymore and explains why the Exodites suffered less. I do not believe the Craftworld Eldar fully understand this distinction - basically this translates that I opt to let where the fluff in ATT and Codex Eldar clash to believe that ATT is the more accurate rendition). I will accept that there is more physical devastation at the epicenter due to the Warp entering physical reality - but question the level of degrees and in any case feel that every planet with DE on it was part of the Eye of Terror expanse and that 99% of all Eldar deaths at this time came at either their own hands or via the soul consumption and not by Warp entities other then Slaanesh and its proxies.

I believe and fluff supports that Vect was part of a major ceremony by one of the major pleasure cults at their temple (my personal interpretation is he was a special part of the ceremony, but that is not as clearly supported) and I believe ATT supports the belief that pleasure cults only have one temple (my earlier quotes about the Black Heart Kabal's temple and Vect organizing his cult as evidence of this - Orkeo and I clearly are confused about what each other is saying here as he didn't understand my counterpoints but does seem to be advancing the theory that I thought he was which makes me unsure why he didn't get my counterpoints that argue for a single temple building/complex for a given pleasure cult.)

I have advanced the personal belief that Vect's temple was near the epicenter (it is at the very least pretty clearly in the Eye). I also have pointed out how I believe all DE were part of planets within the primary blast zone and not stragglers from other worlds, because their re-emergence has come as a great mystery to their Craftworld kin. I think it seems more logical to suggest it as a mystery if they came from a point where everyone was supposed to be dead.

I have shown that the fluff says the entire old Eldar Empire was swallowed in the Eye of Terror. I believe this supports my above suppositions about where the DE were in relation to the event.

I have advanced the belief that both Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar seek to avoid being eaten painfully by Slaanesh, they accomplish this through either the soul stone defense or by the consuming of souls to help appease Slaanesh. This is fairly well supported in the fluff of Codex Eldar and ATT.

I agree with Thor665 on this except on one point. I do not think that the entirety of the Eldar Empire was destroyed by the Warp. While the eye of terror no doubt lies somewhat in the center of the old Eldar Empire, it doesn't cover it's entirety.

I simply believe that the majority of the Empire was destroyed by Slaanesh, not the actual inteference of Warp energy.

The birth of the Eye could be more akin to a whirlpool than an explosion.

Slaanesh roars into being, this results in the destruction/consumption of the vast majority of eldar souls. It is the power of these souls that turns Slaanesh from a spark of gradually smoldering being into a full fledged chaos god. Progress before that had been minimum, reached a critical threshold, then exploded into life. Think of it as a nuclear explosion- small amounts are fairly safe, neutrons bang about but nothing dramatic occurs. Then bring the size of the lump of uranium up. Nothing happens... nothing happens, nothing happens... oops, we've just crossed critical mass and the city is now a mushroom cloud. The slow building was the eldar's decadence, the birth of Slaanesh was the change from something insignificant to a chaos god and the boost from one to the other came from millions of souls being drank at once.

Now we have the Eye. It is formed by this birth. It seems most people assume that it too was an explosion, nothing and then everything being in it at once. What if it was more like a whirlpool? The birth pulls the plug, as it were, and over a relatively short period of time it expands outwards and draws surrounding worlds in as it grows. We know from the eldar codex that some craftworlds that were far enough away from the initial cataclysm to survive are still damned because they have begun to orbit the eye and were slowly drawn in. We know from some of the Imperial fluff that there is a critical point beyond which approaching to the Eye will cause you to be dragged into the chaos storms around it. (So it has to have a gravitational field too.)

This might have given a slight leeway. Some worlds with survivors may not have ended up in the Eye immediately. I can't see them realising exactly what had occurred as fast as the others, since they weren't at ground zero (they didn't see the mushroom cloud, just the aftermath). Perhaps once some had fled into the webway others doubled back via the webway and told the others to jump in, there would need to be a certain number of founding DE and they'd have to be spread across more than one world. But the whirlpool metaphor also means that while one could be near the center of the Eye, the power of it wouldn't be as strong as once it had gotten up to speed. The bigger the whirlpool, the greater force at the center and the deeper it tends to be. That would give them a slightly longer window to escape. And the whole situation seems to have been one of a race against time.

Okay, so let's break this down:

Thor665 wrote:I believe the Slaanesh Eldar soul eating had very little, if anything, to do with distance from any "epicenter" point but that such soul consumption happened due to connection with pleasure cults (supported in ATT due to Vect's survival, also explains how many Craftworld Eldar were still eaten despite not being in the empire anymore and explains why the Exodites suffered less. I do not believe the Craftworld Eldar fully understand this distinction - basically this translates that I opt to let where the fluff in ATT and Codex Eldar clash to believe that ATT is the more accurate rendition).

So we agree on the basic premise but disagree on the extent to which they both matter.

I will accept that there is more physical devastation at the epicenter due to the Warp entering physical reality - but question the level of degrees and in any case feel that every planet with DE on it was part of the Eye of Terror expanse and that 99% of all Eldar deaths at this time came at either their own hands or via the soul consumption and not by Warp entities other then Slaanesh and its proxies.

Agreed (although I don't actually know that there is a difference between physical and spiritual destruction so deep in the Warp).

I believe and fluff supports that Vect was part of a major ceremony by one of the major pleasure cults at their temple (my personal interpretation is he was a special part of the ceremony, but that is not as clearly supported) and I believe ATT supports the belief that pleasure cults only have one temple (my earlier quotes about the Black Heart Kabal's temple and Vect organizing his cult as evidence of this - Orkeo and I clearly are confused about what each other is saying here as he didn't understand my counterpoints but does seem to be advancing the theory that I thought he was which makes me unsure why he didn't get my counterpoints that argue for a single temple building/complex for a given pleasure cult.)

Disagree that this is supported, although there's no real evidence against it. As I said, a "church" can mean both a building and a larger organization.

I have advanced the personal belief that Vect's temple was near the epicenter (it is at the very least pretty clearly in the Eye). I also have pointed out how I believe all DE were part of planets within the primary blast zone and not stragglers from other worlds, because their re-emergence has come as a great mystery to their Craftworld kin. I think it seems more logical to suggest it as a mystery if they came from a point where everyone was supposed to be dead.

Partially disagree. I don't think Vect's planet was near the epicenter but I do think it was in what is now the Eye. I agree that the Craftworlders had reason to believe that everyone in the empire was wiped out but don't see why this must put all planets of the empire deep into the Eye. The borders of the Eye should be dangerous enough, at least to the Eldar during Slaanesh's birth.

I have shown that the fluff says the entire old Eldar Empire was swallowed in the Eye of Terror. I believe this supports my above suppositions about where the DE were in relation to the event.

We agree here.

I have advanced the belief that both Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar seek to avoid being eaten painfully by Slaanesh, they accomplish this through either the soul stone defense or by the consuming of souls to help appease Slaanesh. This is fairly well supported in the fluff of Codex Eldar and ATT.

I agree but feel that the Dark Eldar must be unable to protect themselves in the same manner as a Craftworlder to have chosen such a riskier path.

Here’s my take on this, fleshed out into something I hope is more coherent.

As Eldar society at large became increasingly focused on sensual gratification, there emerged several ideas about the nature of the Eldar species. One view, seemingly the dominant view, was that their immense physiological capacity for sensual experience implied a sort of natural destiny of Eldar to transcend mundane concerns in favor of exploring the full vibrancy of physical and psychological stimulation. I am purposely framing this in neutral terms because I believe the moral gloss of “decadence,” for most Eldar at least, came much later on. There were some, however, who balked at this notion earlier on (relative to the birth of Slaanesh). These were the first Eldar to consider the emphasis on sensual gratification to be at best an inaccurate account of Eldar nature and at worst utter moral depravity (we do not actually know which). It would not be surprising to me if these Eldar found infatuation with sculpture or painting to be just as objectionable as the notorious pleasure cults that Vect talks about in “A Torturer’s Tale.” This would be because the immorality, in their perspective, would not arise from the particular act itself (whether sculpting or torture) but rather in the idea that the purpose of Eldar life is sensual gratification. What “traditionalist” (to use Vect’s word) account of Eldar nature they offered to rebut the dominant view is unknown. What we do know is that these objectors fled to the furthest reaches of the Eldar Empire and so became the Exodites.

Unlike the Exodites, the group that would become the Craftworld Eldar accepted the notion that Eldar nature demands the deep exploration of sensual gratification. What distinguished them from the rest of Eldar society was their division of sensual gratification into categories of commendable pursuits and vile ones. The perfection of art, sport, and fighting were thought of as noble while others (“torture” is the readiest example although it is itself obviously a morally generalizing term) were thought of as wicked. This moral categorization of experiences seems to have originated in the apprehension among a sizeable minority of Eldar that their culture was in decline, which anxiety was in turn stimulated by what Vect calls visions of some impending racial doom. These Eldar foreswore what they considered to be the wild and obsessive pursuit of experience—culminating in notion of the “Eldar Path”—but not the basic assumption that this pursuit, although needing to be tempered by severe discipline, was inherent to the character or nature of the Eldar species. It bears reiterating that these Eldar did not come around to the view of the Exodites but rather remained firmly within the scope of that account of Eldar nature that the Exodites must have rejected. Again, what distinguishes Craftworlders from the majority of pre-Fall Eldar was their insistence than some types or experiences or, more likely, some manners of pursuing experiences were depraved and were leading the Eldar Empire and/or race into crisis.

That leaves the “rest” of the Eldar or, more specifically, what must have been the overwhelming majority of all living Eldar. Were these all “Dark Eldar”? To my mind, the answer is obviously not. This group was made up of those who simply dismissed or were otherwise indifferent toward both the Exodite view of Eldar nature and the moral categorizations of experience worked out by the Craftworlders. I am sure that someone will raise the objection that the fluff always refers to this majority as decadent. Well, of course it does! From the Craftworld perspective, this way of life was degenerate and, in their eyes, the birth of Slaanesh proves that point. But let us keep in mind that Slaanesh is the product of all sorts of sensuality—that is, not merely what we are used to thinking of as immoral. As the daemonette said “Hope, love, hate. All are but desire by other names.” In other words, the Craftworld account of pre-Fall Eldar society is nothing but ex post facto rationalization undertaken in the terms of their own rigid moral perspective. Similarly, Vect’s description of pre-Fall Eldar society is also colored by his own perspective on Eldar nature. And do not forget that his perspective is also an ex post facto rationalization even despite his (alleged) great age. In his view, sculpting and painting are not the epitome of experience. Murder and torture alone reach into the most exquisite levels of pleasure. Only by inflicting grievous harm on others does Vect think an Eldar fulfills its nature. But his view is not privileged over the Exodites or Craftworlders simply because he is old and powerful or because there is a whole city of like-minded Eldar.

In any case, these various viewpoints “hardened,” as it were, over the long ages that have passed since the flight of the Exodites, the “repentance” of the Craftworlders, and the birth of Slaanesh. They became more than simple perspectives and are now complex cultures. The complexity of each, which makes human culture seem crudely basic or even non-existent by comparison, make them mutually impenetrable. I do not think that there is any possibility of an Exodite fully understanding Craftworlders, or vice versa, much less a Craftworlder assimilating into Commorragh. A Craftworlder may become an outcast but he will never be free of the worldview of the Eldar Path. That way of thinking is utterly hardwired into him. At the same time, that worldview is utterly alien to a Dark Eldar. I think this may help to explain why Dark Eldar do not use Spirit Stones. As someone has already hinted at, they find the notion that one would restrain oneself in any fashion, including the ultimate desire to integrate into a World Spirit or Infinity Circuit, to be not merely distasteful but totally incomprehensible. A Craftworlder may ultimately reject this goal but he will never not understand why others of his kind accept it. A Dark Eldar, by contrast, would see the whole concept as counter-intuitive and senseless. So even if a Craftworlder threw away his Waystone and started dressing in hooks and leather, he still would never be a Dark Eldar.

Manchu wrote:
In any case, these various viewpoints “hardened,” as it were, over the long ages that have passed since the flight of the Exodites, the “repentance” of the Craftworlders, and the birth of Slaanesh. They became more than simple perspectives and are now complex cultures. The complexity of each, which makes human culture seem crudely basic or even non-existent by comparison, make them mutually impenetrable. I do not think that there is any possibility of an Exodite fully understanding Craftworlders, or vice versa, much less a Craftworlder assimilating into Commorragh. A Craftworlder may become an outcast but he will never be free of the worldview of the Eldar Path. That way of thinking is utterly hardwired into him. At the same time, that worldview is utterly alien to a Dark Eldar. I think this may help to explain why Dark Eldar do not use Spirit Stones. As someone has already hinted at, they find the notion that one would restrain oneself in any fashion, including the ultimate desire to integrate into a World Spirit or Infinity Circuit, to be not merely distasteful but totally incomprehensible. A Craftworlder may ultimately reject this goal but he will never not understand why others of his kind accept it. A Dark Eldar, by contrast, would see the whole concept as counter-intuitive and senseless. So even if a Craftworlder threw away his Waystone and started dressing in hooks and leather, he still would never be a Dark Eldar.

How did you make that step?
While they obviously do not approve, why do you believe that the DE do not understand what the Craftworlders do?
They are not alien cultures, at best they would be called cousins.
Harlequins are accepted easily enough and are part of both cultures.

It seems far more likely that the Dark Eldar simply view the way of the Path as inferior to preying on souls. And who's to say that a few craftworlders wouldn't agree?

What I'm trying to say is, why do you think the two are incapable of understanding the choices of the other race? (regardless of approval)

Hmmmph, what a heated debate.

I, personally, believe that any eldar can be corrupted to the path of the Dark Eldar. After all, the Dark Eldar were.

How exactly is it "far more likely" to be merely a matter of approval?

Let's use an example. Think of one of these rain forest tribes who regularly ate the flesh of their enemies that they had killed in battle. For them, such a thing was entirely normal and not at all troubling. Now, if I were to take off all my clothes, run off into the jungle, and start living with these people would I become one of them? The answer, unless you are being totally insincere, is no. I may learn to speak their language fluently, master their customs, and in other ways become more or less indistinguishable from them BUT as soon as it came time to serve up the latest meal of human being my true identity as an outsider would resurface--at least inside of myself. For I may dig right in and even grin yet pricking at my conscience would be that voice, instilled by my upbringing in the modern Western world, insisting that eating another human being is savagery and indeed an abominable crime against nature. (Should you ask me to believe that this discomfort would eventually go away, I should ask you to reconsider whether you think there is anything that really makes you who you are and if you say no I see no point discussing any matter further with you.) In this example, we see how culture is not so easy to escape as one might imagine or desire. As another example, do you think that people choose to be racist? Many people are entirely aware that it is not right to judge people on the basis of skin tone and yet do it all the same even when they consciously try not to. There is no cultural on/off switch inside of the human person. Neither is there a dimmer switch with which we may at will though gradually adjust our cultural orientation.

If we take the fluff seriously, the range and depth of human emotional experience is next to insignificant compared to that of the Eldar. Imagine how such passion is reflected in culture and how deeply one capable of such passion would participate in that culture. Even for humans, this is the most significant factor regarding one's identity (hence my parenthetical above) so it stands to reason that it is infinitely more important to the Eldar. Further, the separation of Exodite, Craftworlder, and Dark Eldar occurred at a moment of extraordinary significance, a moment which became definitive of each people. A moment, in other words, which totally and indelibly reshaped the culture of each. It seems most likely to me that there is no going back at this point. The three branches of the Eldar family cannot reunite. Their boundaries are no longer permeable. It is no longer merely matter of different values or lifestyles; rather, it is now a matter of being alien one to another in a similar if lesser (and certainly not biological) manner as humans are to Tau. They do not comprehend one another's motives or methods--even if they may claim as much. They are no longer able to because their common frame of reference, pre-fall Eldar culture, is totally lost even in their memories, where it has been replaced by a biased nostalgia or judgmental revulsion or combination of both.

I will say it again: Eldar do not "fall" to Chaos like humans do. A Space Marine who falls to Chaos is most certainly a Chaos Space Marine whether or not he or his chapter was around when Horus betrayed the Emperor. The only qualification for being a Chaos Space Marine is falling to Chaos. There are much steeper, unattainable outside of chance at birth qualification for being a Dark Eldar. As I said to Ketara, the "dark" doesn't simply mean "bad."


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alexwars1 wrote:I, personally, believe that any eldar can be corrupted to the path of the Dark Eldar. After all, the Dark Eldar were.

The Dark Eldar were never Craftworld Eldar. You're going to have to think harder about what the word "corrupted" means in this case.

I understand what you're saying, but personally I think the 'savage tribe' was a poor analogy. Like you said Eldar experience feelings at a much greater level than humans, and many find the path quite restrictive, as they are forbidden from many things that they would find pleasurable. To a younger, rasher Eldar living 'The Path' it may appear that perhaps the DE (adventerous rouges that they are) have the right idea after all.

If you talk like a Dark Eldar, eat like a Dark Eldar, torture like a Dark Eldar then you are, for all intents and purposes a Dark Eldar. The only difference between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar is that the Craftworld Eldar walk 'The Path'. In fact, I'm not even sure where you get the idea that Exodites are so different. They seem more like the 'Amish Villages' of the Eldar. Are you saying that someone who has experience western technology and ideas is incapable of joining an Amish Village?

You are saying that it is physically impossible, how so? What difference renders the two so incompatable other than their difference in culture? Keep in mind that these are not two different races, not at all.

Manchu, that savage analogy was actually quite a good one I thought. Whilst you and I still disagree on the prefix of dark, I can fully understand where you're coming from, and agree with you on the whole cultural roots thing.

Emperor, agreeing with Manchu's point here doesn't invalidate the previous point I made. Let me put it like this.

We think a Dark Eldar is defined by how he acts and where he lives, yes? So if he lives in Commorragh, and eats souls, he's a Dark Eldar.

However, a Craftworld born Eldar, whilst he might live in Commorragh, and eat souls, he's always going to have a nagging feeling he shouldn't be doing this. This doesn't stop him being a Dark Eldar in our eyes, but it is a certain mental state that a Commorragh born Dark Eldar would never have had. So whilst they're both Dark Eldar , one born in Iyanden has subtle mental differences to one born in a Dark Eldar city in the Webway.

It would depend on at what age the craftworld eldar left for or was abducted to commoragh.
Being born in place A doesnt automatically mean you will get nagging feeling of wrongness if you live in place B with its different customs. It all depends on age and if you had time to properly adapt to your place of birth or not.

Also some persons feel wrong, as if they never really belong, even if that means they never left the place of their birth. Then they travel around and settle down in place B where they feel like they finally belong to and is right for them.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

I have advanced the personal belief that Vect's temple was near the epicenter (it is at the very least pretty clearly in the Eye). I also have pointed out how I believe all DE were part of planets within the primary blast zone and not stragglers from other worlds, because their re-emergence has come as a great mystery to their Craftworld kin. I think it seems more logical to suggest it as a mystery if they came from a point where everyone was supposed to be dead.

Partially disagree. I don't think Vect's planet was near the epicenter but I do think it was in what is now the Eye. I agree that the Craftworlders had reason to believe that everyone in the empire was wiped out but don't see why this must put all planets of the empire deep into the Eye. The borders of the Eye should be dangerous enough, at least to the Eldar during Slaanesh's birth.

I have shown that the fluff says the entire old Eldar Empire was swallowed in the Eye of Terror. I believe this supports my above suppositions about where the DE were in relation to the event.

We agree here.

So the Empire was swallowed but you advance the belief of some planets not being as "deep" in the Warp? My understanding of the Warp says there are basically three states - you are in the Warp, not in the Warp or you are on the periphery edge where some Warp bleeds out and you get slight Warp interference/rifts (which really means you're not in the Warp as far as I can tell, you're just in an area it's bleeding through heavier. Could you expound a bit on the 'depth' of the Warp thing and/or where I could read more about it?

I have advanced the belief that both Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar seek to avoid being eaten painfully by Slaanesh, they accomplish this through either the soul stone defense or by the consuming of souls to help appease Slaanesh. This is fairly well supported in the fluff of Codex Eldar and ATT.

I agree but feel that the Dark Eldar must be unable to protect themselves in the same manner as a Craftworlder to have chosen such a riskier path.

In both those views, while the one joining may never feel like they truly belong, if they have offspring which are raised in that culture, said offspring will. I do think that that is slightly more likely, that some corsairs end up in close proximaty but not [i]quite[i] embracing all their practises (through the afforementioned sense of 'wrong'- if they've lived all their lives with spiritstones, they probably don't think of them very much anymore, and are unlikely to just discard them for the sake of discarding them. Discarding them if it serve a purpose, perhaps, but soulstones and consuming souls strikes me as one of the most likely 'cultural fractures', as Manchu describes. I don't feel that the Path would, because many discard the Path. So that part of the culture seems easier to part with).

However, offspring are not going to have soulstones of their own, and not have any means of getting them. I doubt a corsair ship in such a position is going to be able to buddy up to a craftworld, and neither DE nor harlequins use them. So they'll be fine to start with, and have enough contact with a culture to think that while drinking souls is a bit odd and maybe a touch off, they won't have the same deep seated aversion. And when they start to feel the pull of the Thirst on them, their view is going to start changing.

A random, possibly not very good example: when I've taken international and city students out bush (I live in West Australia) they wonder why I'm wearing long sleeves and pants when it is incredibly hot outside. They think I'm stupid, I should be wearing shorts. We start going through the bush itself, they're getting cuts and scratches from the plants and bitten by insects and some of that stuff is a mild skin irritant. They end up feeling quite sorry for themselves. I'm fine. After a few days, they decide that I had the right idea after all.

Thor665 wrote:
So the Empire was swallowed but you advance the belief of some planets not being as "deep" in the Warp? My understanding of the Warp says there are basically three states - you are in the Warp, not in the Warp or you are on the periphery edge where some Warp bleeds out and you get slight Warp interference/rifts (which really means you're not in the Warp as far as I can tell, you're just in an area it's bleeding through heavier. Could you expound a bit on the 'depth' of the Warp thing and/or where I could read more about it?

I was just referring to "deep in the Warp" as meaning more warp overtaking the material than around it. Basically a matter of degrees, where the nearer you go into the Eye the "purer" the warp is, and the less reality matters. So to use your example, most of the Eye is the warp bleeding into and overlapping with the material world, but the level of bleeding is at different levels depending on how far in you go.

(I vaguely recall "deep warp" being mentioned in some of the fluff for Space Hulks, but that's not was I was meaning to talk about.)

The path may be riskier but it is also less close minded, allows more personal freedom, and doesn't dictate a dulling of the senses and an avoidance of the basic principle of pleasure and experience. I see no reason why risk need be the only measuring block (and as proven by capture of spirit stones on the battlefield - I question how much less risky that solution is).

But even if the path is being ignored, why ignore the spirit stones?

I don't know how having your spirit stone be captured can be worse than dying without one.

I believe they ignore the spirit stones because they don't believe using the spirit stones represents living life.

Morgrim wrote:
A random, possibly not very good example: when I've taken international and city students out bush (I live in West Australia) they wonder why I'm wearing long sleeves and pants when it is incredibly hot outside. They think I'm stupid, I should be wearing shorts. We start going through the bush itself, they're getting cuts and scratches from the plants and bitten by insects and some of that stuff is a mild skin irritant. They end up feeling quite sorry for themselves. I'm fine. After a few days, they decide that I had the right idea after all.

That's actually quite a good analogy. And has in fact happened to me.

So you and I are agreed that the offspring of a corsair could become fully integrated in DE soceity?

I still believe that, for all intents and purposes, the corsiar his/herself could become a DE, but on this point I agree with you, Morgrim.