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I think you sum up our difference pretty well. My own summary is this:

Ketara: The prefix "dark" simply means "evil." If a Craftworld Eldar is evil then he is a Dark Eldar.

Manchu: An evil Craftworld Eldar is simply an evil Craftworld Eldar, even if he has a leather fetish and likes eating souls.

I see what you mean about contempt versus hatred and agree BUT I have to reiterate that I think this proves nothing with regard to Craftworld Eldar becoming Dark Eldar.

Hmm. I wouldn't say an evil Eldar is a dark Eldar, but that an Evil Eldar who sucks souls and lives in Commorragh is.

And oh, certainly. It proves nothing either way, but I thought it an interesting distinction to make, simply because I'm now considering doing a Dark Eldar themed force which is made up of 'fallen Eldar' who hang around Commorragh, and trade with the more regular Dark Eldar.

That's actually a perfect example of what I mean. That kind of army would use Codex: Eldar rules right?

I would probably convert units which could count as being from both codexes, so as to kill two birds, and collect two armies with one stone.

I sold up my old incredibly ugly Dark Eldar force the other day, and have been planning out a number of Eldar/Dark Eldar hybrids to make some decent looking models. This simply gives me the fluff to back it up with.

Well, an Eldar Corsair wouldn't HAVE to be accepted by the DE. He could just turn up with his fleet and make his own Kabal.

It's not like they'd unite or anything...

I actually like most of the DE metals, old as they are (unless you mean ones that are even older), but then again I love my metal sisters, too.

As to the fluff, when you're using units from two different books in one army and neither is Inquisition . . . well, fluff is hardly the main concern!

I was always of the belief that the Dark Eldar were fundamentally corrupted in a way that the Craftworlders and Exodites were not.

Otherwise why such an ineffective plan for staying alive? There's no way attempting to live forever is going to be a better option than the use of the Craftworld's spirit stones. Even if they didn't want to give up their way of life, you would think they would at least use spirit stones to try and stave off some of their destruction.

@Orkeo: This is why I thought the Thirst affected all Eldar and the Dark Eldar simply have no access to Spirit Stones because they'd never be caught dead (pun intended) in the Eye of Terror trying to get some.

@Ketara: We deserve the "how discussions should be had" award. ::shakes your hand::

A non-flamed discussion = Internet High-Five!

When an Eldar dies, their spirit returns to the Warp, where Slaanesh gets to eat it. As Eldar souls are strong enough to maintain a vestige of consciousness after death, it's the worst possible ending for them.

It's all too possible Dark Eldar don't have access to Spirit stones, that may be why they were forced to eat souls in the first place. It's not documented, so I couldn't say either way. I would postulate though, that Dark Eldar society has functioned on slaves and souls for so long now, even given the chance, they wouldn't use spirit stones. Eating a soul is meant to be the ultimate form of ecstasy, one tortured and distilled to the edge of death and held there for a thousand years even more so. Once you've tasted that kind of pleasure, it would be difficult to go back.

*shakes hand*

Always good to get the old intellectual muscles pumping.

A lot of the confusion comes from the skimpy fluff sections in the DE Codex. If they ever redo it, I'm sure this will all be more clear. We might even get some clarifications in the upcoming Gav Thorpe series but I doubt they will be in the first novel.

In the meantime, regardless of cannon , Morgrim might want to write a novel for us or something.

It would be nice to get some fresh fluff. I've gathered everything they've ever produced on the dark eldar religously, but unfortunately the new codex is always 'next year'.....

Don't tempt me, I have several pages of proto-fluff on my harddrive.

Including a nice little 'eldar are in a fighting retreat against chaos guard, harlequins were nearby recently, eldar scream 'help!', harlequins grab a passing raiding party, much mutual bailing while snatching slaves and glowering occurs.'

There are times I think the harlequins are the only ones that can keep DE in line.

That is there eternal curse. Actually, so far in this year's foreseeable lineup there are no new DE codex rumors. Heck, there are even Inquisitor rumors (which I hope are unfounded) and no DE ones.

And the little bit in Planetstrike was so encouraging.

Then again, there was a second one in WD, so at least it seems unlikely they'll be squatted.

We also had the short story in Tales of Heresy where the Archon was even wearing a Vexanthrope or Hellmask or something. Plus he fought Space Wolves. I was in fanboy heaven for that story (then had to cringe through that really horrible Dark Angel one)

An interesting debate betwixt Manchu and Ketara of which I'm afraid I can offer no true deeper answer. I will say I agree with Ketara insomuch as Dark Eldar is more of a label and their proper title is simply Eldar (who happen to believe in torture and awesome blown back 80's hair).

As to whether a Craftworld Eldar could "become" a Dark Eldar? Certainly all references in Imperial timelines to Eldar pirates can almost refer to either Corsairs or Dark Eldar. I'll agree with Manchu that I don't think they'd ever be trusted - but then again, it's very much canon that DE don't trust each other anyway, so is that much of a difference? Though I'm pretty sure it's canon that Eldar souls are much beloved of DE as the sweetest of all - so any Corsair wanting to hang out in the Dark City better be on his toes even if he's being treated nice. I think Manchu's example of an American in Paris is a pretty accurate way to describe it - yeah, they can probably walk the walk, talk the talk, and drink the souls. But in the final analysis they are still "Craftworld" Eldar in the eyes of all the "Dark" Eldar (though to any outside observer there's probably no way to tell so it probably doesn't matter.

I do agree with Ketara that on a base genetic level I don't think there's much of a difference, if any, between the races. If 'The Torturer's Tale' is to be accepted as canon (and I certainly wish it to be) then Vect is an Eldar born and somewhat raised prior to the appearance of Slaanesh - which makes him of the same stock as the Craftworld boys to my way of thinking.

You wouldn't need to have been born after The Fall to be corrupted by it; I took The Torturer's Tale as implying that the Dark Eldar were of a different tier of damage from the Fall than the Craftworlders. Sort of how different proximities to a nuclear bomb will affect people differently.

The closest were immediately consumed by Slaanesh, the next furthest instantly went insane and either killed themselves or were killed by others, the next furthest (those on the borders of the empire) were corrupted but rallied under Vect's banner and fled to Commoragh (where they must feed on souls and mostly stay in the webway to survive), and those outside of the empire were not really corrupted but are still hunted (and must stay on The Path/continue to be space Amish and use spirit stones to avoid being found and destroyed).

In that case it wouldn't really be a genetic difference but more of a curse on them and their descendants (that Craftworlders would not normally be privy to).

To reiterate, I do not think that there is any genetic difference between DE and Craftworlders. But I have a similar opinion to Orkeo--DE are the specific cultural product of surviving the Fall. Craftworlders are certainly affected by it (@Thor: are we sure they're unaffected by the Thirst because they never imbibed soul rather than because of Spirit Stones? if so, the are even less affected by it--maybe only as much as humans) but every moment in the life of any given DE is entirely shaped by that event. Craftworlders have no inkling of She Who Thirsts compared to the DE. I almost feel that a "bad as I wanna be" Craftworlder would be laughed to scorn by DE as merely a "wannabe."

Orkeosaurus wrote:The closest were immediately consumed by Slaanesh, the next furthest instantly went insane and either killed themselves or were killed by others, the next furthest (those on the borders of the empire) were corrupted but rallied under Vect's banner and fled to Commoragh (where they must feed on souls and mostly stay in the webway to survive), and those outside of the empire were not really corrupted but are still hunted.

As described in Torturer's Tale it actually had more to do with how deep into the pleasure cults they were. Vect was young and uninitiated and thus wasn't chosen as an optimum munchy, the high priest of a pleasure cult who was about to slit his throat was very much affected. Distance had no real bearing on it as far as I can tell from that story. All Eldar equally feel the pull of Slaanesh on their souls and all are equally and identically doomed when they die.

They have two different solutions to the identical problem

Manchu wrote:Craftworlders are certainly affected by it (@Thor: are we sure they're unaffected by the Thirst because they never imbibed soul rather than because of Spirit Stones? if so, the are even less affected by it--maybe only as much as humans) but every moment in the life of any given DE is entirely shaped by that event.

I disagree. The Thirst has nothing to do directly with the Fall. The Thirst is a side effect to the solution discovered by Vect and the other survivors who eventually became Dark Eldar. As I mentioned above, both groups have an equal problem with what happens to their souls when they die. Torturer's Tale does indicate that the DE went into the WebWay to escape some of the "pull" of Slaanesh, though it is never clear what this pull is or why (or if) it's greater on them then Craftworld Eldar - but there is that as a potential difference between the factions. But both sides are trying to avoid having their souls eaten by Slaanesh and that is a fate they share.

Just to clarify - I'm describing the Thirst as the continual hunger a DE feels to consume more and more souls as he channels and feeds off soul energy to extend his life.

Craftworlders have no inkling of She Who Thirsts compared to the DE. I almost feel that a "bad as I wanna be" Craftworlder would be laughed to scorn by DE as merely a "wannabe."

I could see them being laughed at - but if they give up the soul stone solution and start supping souls they're effectively DE if not culturally so. I would presume that due to the work of the Harlequins the Eldar are fairly well aware of the whole Slaanesh situation equally so to the DE. Have you read anything to suggest different?

Thor665 wrote:As described in Torturer's Tale it actually had more to do with how deep into the pleasure cults they were. Vect was young and uninitiated and thus wasn't chosen as an optimum munchy, the high priest of a pleasure cult who was about to slit his throat was very much affected. Distance had no real bearing on it as far as I can tell from that story. All Eldar equally feel the pull of Slaanesh on their souls and all are equally and identically doomed when they die.

Looking back on it there appears to be some of both.

"Our Lord, young as he was, was not so steeped in the pleasure and ecstasy of our peoples, so along with many other of the children he had not been as strongly tied to the Great Enemy."

"for the emergence of the Great Enemy created the vortex known to you as the Eye of Terror, engulfing our oldest worlds"

They have two different solutions to the identical problem

Except the Dark Eldar solution is hugely inferior. That's really the issue with them, there is no logical reason for the Dark Eldar to chose such a poor plan of escape if they are in fact no different from the Craftworlders and Exodites. Other than SO EBIL.

Yes, Eldar Codex mentions that DE were not even known to exist until some centuries after the Fall before which time the Caftworlders assumed only they and the Exodites had survived. The Codex also mentions that how the DE escaped remains a "great mystery." The presumption, on the part of Craftworlders, seems to be that by rejecting (either from the beginning or at least at a point significantly before the Fall) the degeneration of Eldar culture, the Craftworlders and Exodites were not affected. This tends to support Orkeo's view (or some less spatially dependent version of it) over against the view presented in "Torturer's Tale" (what was that in?). That view is also somewhat discredited by the fact that there is no indication that any Craftworlder was killed upon the birth of Slaanesh despite the fact that all of them had been involved to some extent in the Pleasure Cults (they were the repentant Eldar, not the abstainers) and some had very likely indulged more deeply than others. The notion that no Craftworlders died as an immediate result of the Fall, unlike the unrepentant Eldar, also supports the view that repentance--going off in a Craftworld--is what shielded them from the Fall and so leave mysterious how those who became the Dark Eldar could have survived.

You could also say that they would have attributed their survival to the use of Waystones/Spirit Stones but it's a difficult point. If the Waystones were being used before the Fall (and they must have been, given that Exodites use them and Craftworlds predate the Fall) then it was presumably to keep their souls from entering the Warp. If this was the case, then the Craftworlders were not the only ones using Way Stones for this purpose. The unrepentant would have been using them as well (unless it was part of the Cults not to) but we know that if they did use them it was of no aide to them when Slaanesh was born.

Finally, the idea that only those sufficiently corrupted by the Pleasure Cults being killed/driven mad by the Fall is not supported generally because this event killed off the vast majority of the Eldar population. So if only those most deeply involved in the Cults were affected then Vect was at that point one of the most innocent (like 99th percentile) members of the entire species, which seems more than a little absurd. Seems to me that why some survived and other did not remains a mystery for which each people has their own self-serving half-answer.

I hate to beat a dead horse but all of these issues point to all Eldar being affected by the Thirst. Exodites and Craftworlders are protected by their use of Spirit Stones, Infinity Circuits, and World Spirits while the Webway somewhat inulates DE who nonetheless must (and prefer, anyway) to replenish the life that Slaanesh sucks out of them by sucking it out of others. Maybe Orkeo is right and the Fall rendered DE unable to use Spirit Stones. I'm inclined to believe that they are too frightened to go into the Eye of Terror to get them.

It could be a combination of distance and how deeply they were steeped in the pleasure cults. Those closer were affected far more severely than those further away, but that nature provided some measure of shielding. To use the nuclear explosion metaphor: those furtherest away are safe from the initial blast, but not the fallout and some of the secondary affects. Those closer get the full brunt, but can mitigate it by other means (such as being underground, in a storm shelter etc). This is not going to let them get off scot free, but it helps.

It may also be telling that those with the deepest grip of the thirst are definitely the oldest. It is possible that they were the ones that were alive when Slaanesh was born, so the claws are sunk far deeper than DE born later within the protection of the webway. There is no way there society could sustain itself if all oldish DE required ten thousand souls a day. Where one alive during the cataclysm may, one only a few years younger - but born afterwards - may require only a fraction of that, and the age difference is not going to be significant over the millennium since it occurred.

The Torturer's Tale also suggests that there was a brief period of time where their were eldar still on the planets within the Eye yet were not completely consumed. One can assume that the initial blast and the jockying for position (and likely massive wars) that were happening amongst the demons prevented the worlds being taken over by demons immediately, or maybe it took some time for the Eye to coalesces so that they could make the jump. That bit isn't as important as the fact that Slaanesh was in a prime position to consume the surviors. Maybe it was a full stomach situation; 'I've just eaten huge numbers of souls. I'm stuffed. I'll pick up the crumbs afterwards.'

Hrythar Dreamweave, Wild Rider wrote:The wind whipping across your face as your blades whip across the throats of the foe. It makes the blood sing.

Somehow... I don't think the eldar are nearly as immune to the impulses that they condemn as they would like. That is very close to what the reaver jetbikers say. So the possibility of embracing such a nature is certainly there. The Path of the Outcast is known to be those that wander about and rangers and pathfinders, and are still accepted. But there is the unspecified Path of Damnation, whom the craftworlds refuse to speak of. I think this means those that either fall into chaos, or fall into the sort of depravity that they associate with the DE. So it seems possible that at least some of these could be found within Commorragh. It'd explain why they cannot be spoken of, merely suggesting to young eldar that this is possible would be something that the leaders would strive to prevent. Such a thing may only tempt them.

And to address the 'dark being an appellation' thing, I think it's one given by humans. The eldar refer to their soulstealing brethren as 'Druchii'. The word for harlequin is Rillietann. The word for craftworlders may be along the lines of 'fian', since it is used in several phrases that could be self referring. Either way, they're all different enough that it seems one is not a mere 'we'll tack one a descriptive word to one of the others' but more a name for a culture, in the same way that we refer to americans or french, not 'flagwaving humans' or 'frogeating humans'.

@Manchu: Actually, a lot, one might even suppose most of the Craftworlds were destroyed as they fled, and even some exodite worlds.

Sry i'm just a 40k lore fanatic who knows too much about the horus hersey and crap like that. Lore is my side of the force. Porn is for people from WoW. But still The Eldar could never truly fall.

They cannot become blood thristiy and brutal beasts like their dark cousins. No they have too much pride. which was the down fall of their entire race.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

They have two different solutions to the identical problem

Except the Dark Eldar solution is hugely inferior. That's really the issue with them, there is no logical reason for the Dark Eldar to chose such a poor plan of escape if they are in fact no different from the Craftworlders and Exodites. Other than SO EBIL.

I would argue that their solution is quite justifiable (as expressed in Torturer's Tale again. To them the mon-keigh and other races of that ilk are like weak and short lived beasts. To their mind all they are doing is killing cattle for sustenance (after all, humans don't even perceive emotions in remotely the same manner Eldar do). What is a few hundred beasts in order to ensure the life of such a worthy race as the Eldar? Also, why use spirit stones? Is it their goal to shrivel up in a ball and try to hold back and restrain the full glory of their potential experiences in a monk-like shadowy existence of what could be? And you call their choice inferior? The True Eldar live life to the fullest at the cost of a paltry few thousand insects - I say to you they have chosen the only worthwhile choice.

Manchu wrote:The presumption, on the part of Craftworlders, seems to be that by rejecting (either from the beginning or at least at a point significantly before the Fall) the degeneration of Eldar culture, the Craftworlders and Exodites were not affected. This tends to support Orkeo's view (or some less spatially dependent version of it) over against the view presented in "Torturer's Tale" (what was that in?).

I comment on some of this below - Torturer's Tale originally appeared in White Dwarf (241 according to a quick web search) and also was hosted for a time on the GW site when they hosted fluff. Nwadays you can maybe find it posted up in some corner of the web. If you want a copy give me a holler and I'll PM you the text.

That view is also somewhat discredited by the fact that there is no indication that any Craftworlder was killed upon the birth of Slaanesh despite the fact that all of them had been involved to some extent in the Pleasure Cults (they were the repentant Eldar, not the abstainers) and some had very likely indulged more deeply than others. The notion that no Craftworlders died as an immediate result of the Fall, unlike the unrepentant Eldar, also supports the view that repentance--going off in a Craftworld--is what shielded them from the Fall and so leave mysterious how those who became the Dark Eldar could have survived.

...ah, I strongly disagree. Go to, let's say 4th edition Codex Eldar (the current book) and flip to page 5 'the Dying' first paragraph and you will read about how "most" Craftworlders died in the creation of Slaanesh. The Craftworlders had some theories about it being location to the "creation point" but as proven by Vect's and others survival it appears more likely that there was some specific quality of a soul that drew Slaanesh to eat those she did first.

You could also say that they would have attributed their survival to the use of Waystones/Spirit Stones but it's a difficult point. If the Waystones were being used before the Fall (and they must have been, given that Exodites use them and Craftworlds predate the Fall) then it was presumably to keep their souls from entering the Warp. If this was the case, then the Craftworlders were not the only ones using Way Stones for this purpose. The unrepentant would have been using them as well (unless it was part of the Cults not to) but we know that if they did use them it was of no aide to them when Slaanesh was born.

And was of no help to the Craftworlders either. My personal presumption is that both the Exodites and Craftworlders developed the Spirit Stones after the fall. In the Codex they are specifically called out as a means to prevent entering the Warp and being hunted down by Slaanesh's minions. Perhaps there used to be a time before Slaanesh where the souls wouldn't specifically be drawn to the Warp. Honestly I don't know as there is no fluff evidence I'm aware of to go either way. But there does appear to be ample and solid evidence that if the SPirit Stones existed before the Fall they did nothing to protect the Craftworlders who did die in great numbers during The Fall

Finally, the idea that only those sufficiently corrupted by the Pleasure Cults being killed/driven mad by the Fall is not supported generally because this event killed off the vast majority of the Eldar population. So if only those most deeply involved in the Cults were affected then Vect was at that point one of the most innocent (like 99th percentile) members of the entire species, which seems more than a little absurd. Seems to me that why some survived and other did not remains a mystery for which each people has their own self-serving half-answer.

Deeply is too strong of a word - Vect's description was "more deeply" which is then simply a matter of degrees. He could very well have his own twist to put on it - perhaps Slaanesh left alive those who she thought would be most destructive? But then why leave alive any Craftworlders unless they are far more destructive then they themselves are aware? My suspicion is that Vect's claim holds a kernel of truth as it meets with all the evidence we have available to us.

I hate to beat a dead horse but all of these issues point to all Eldar being affected by the Thirst. Exodites and Craftworlders are protected by their use of Spirit Stones, Infinity Circuits, and World Spirits while the Webway somewhat inulates DE who nonetheless must (and prefer, anyway) to replenish the life that Slaanesh sucks out of them by sucking it out of others. Maybe Orkeo is right and the Fall rendered DE unable to use Spirit Stones. I'm inclined to believe that they are too frightened to go into the Eye of Terror to get them.

If by Thirst you mean Slaanesh eating them I fully, and have been fully agreeing with you.
If by Thirst you men the desire to drink souls I have been disagreeing with you.
I think DE choose not to use Spirit Stones because they consider it a coward's way out and a choice to not experience their senses to the fullest which is against their pleasure cult mentality.

Morgrim wrote:It may also be telling that those with the deepest grip of the thirst are definitely the oldest.

It is fairly clearly outlined in DE fluff that as one drinks more souls one develops more thirst. So those that have been doing it the longest will of course have more hunger.

Asherian Command wrote:They cannot become blood thristiy and brutal beasts like their dark cousins. No they have too much pride. which was the down fall of their entire race.

They cannot fall because they have too much pride? Someone needs to re-read their Proverbs 16:18.

I don't think a craftworld, or even exodite would ever welcome a Dark eldar no matter how reformed.

The original craftworld eldar were the ones who were not decadent and depraved and had not "fallen". They created a new society with paths to give purpose and prevent people from falling into the dark kin's ways. I don't think they would want the taint of someone who had fallen around them, would prolly cause some kind of eldar psychic bad mojo.

As for dark eldar welcoming craftword eldar? I don't think they welcome each other but I doubt they would care if a craftworld eldar had joined them as long as their purpose was served.

The last edition (3e) eldar codex shows the cycle and paths of eldar life and at the bottom is basically outcast thent he fallen. so I am pretty sure It is possible for a craftworld eldar to fall.

Thor665 wrote:I would argue that their solution is quite justifiable (as expressed in Torturer's Tale again. To them the mon-keigh and other races of that ilk are like weak and short lived beasts. To their mind all they are doing is killing cattle for sustenance (after all, humans don't even perceive emotions in remotely the same manner Eldar do). What is a few hundred beasts in order to ensure the life of such a worthy race as the Eldar? Also, why use spirit stones? Is it their goal to shrivel up in a ball and try to hold back and restrain the full glory of their potential experiences in a monk-like shadowy existence of what could be? And you call their choice inferior? The True Eldar live life to the fullest at the cost of a paltry few thousand insects - I say to you they have chosen the only worthwhile choice.

Come on now Thor, no one cares about those monkey things running around.

What I mean is that the Dark Eldar are all eventually consumed. I mean, Vect is the oldest of the Dark Eldar, isn't he? In that case we know the first generation is already mostly dead. You pretty much have to work your way up to Archon to continue surviving (due to the huge number of souls they must consume) into old age and there would have to be almost as many Archons as Warriors if the Dark Eldar were doing a good job at not dying.

Remember, the dark eldar race does appear to be expanding slowly, despite their harsh way of life. This indicates a prodigal birth rate. Not only that, but the appearance of new dark eldar cities other than Commorragh also indicates new domains for new Archons to rule.

Well thats of course assuming the dark eldar arent mating and proliferating

when you setup conditions to increase lifespan, eventually with no change in birthrate your population will increase instead of decrease. But as people are living longer there is most likely going to be a increase in birthrate as well.