Is it possible for Eldar to fall?

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**Emperors Faithful**

Well, ehat have you read? (Honest question, I can't find much fluff abouth him)

I've only heard him referenced in the Eldar Codex as the 'Fallen Phoenix Lord'. I'm not sure that this constitutes 'Chaos' necessarily.

**Thor665**

Look at Codex Eldar 4th Edition under the Pheonix Lords - in particular the Striking Scorpions. Arhra is explicitly stated to burn with the dark light of Chaos.

In previous fluff (Codex Eldar 3e and the DE Codex) there were ample clues dropped that he had fallen and waged war against his brethren - and that he was the Dark Father who had founded the Incubi. However with the 4e Eldar fluff we presume that either GW intentionally retconned this situation - or that their writers are idiots (not mutually exclusive, of course)

In any case, in current fluff, with a fall to Chaos, the only way Arhra founded the Incubi would be if at some point on his descent, but prior to going Chaos-y, he joined with the DE for a time, and then when he went over to Chaos they too turned on him.

**Morgrim**

The last seems plausible. Leave the craftworld, fall in with a bad crowd, all of you share knowledge and experiences, they get some rather good ideas from you because you are the best of the Striking Scorpions. He then takes some of it far too far, thinks that as the DE sort of lifestyle led to the birth of Slaanesh that means that eldar formed Slaanesh and are indebted to Slaanesh and the Thirst is an attempt to draw them back to the one god that perfectly embodies everything that they once were. He runs off to join chaos. His disgusted followers go home and make their living by being the one group that don't back stab in a culture of backstabber's, and thus being the only ones that are actually trusted. Calling the boss the Dark Father is a reflection of how the first were taught by the master.

It's interesting how one can come up with ideas one had never thought of while writing up a tangentially related post. I'd never thought of the 'we should worship Slaanesh for we embody and are embodied by Slaanesh and the Thirst is the call to beckon us home' angle before now. Note, I'm not saying that that is the case, but I can see how a group or cult of eldar - dark, craftworld, or exoite - could think that. Yes, I know some of those cultures are more likely to than others, but you get nut jobs in every society. It does make more sense than killing yourself to hitch a ride on a spaceship hiding behind a comet, at least. I think I need to ponder more on that one.

**Cryonicleech**

The Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar DO hate each other. So what if they are the same species? The Dark Eldar, in their selfishness, chose the path of darkness for their survival. The Craftworld Eldar put more restrictions on regular Eldar Society.

Both wanted to save their skins. Both had different solutions. However, it seems that the Craftworld Eldar are appalled by the Dark Eldar's depravity, whilst the Dark Eldar view their self-righteous cousins with the typical Spehs Elf Disdain.

If an Eldar wanted to become a Dark Eldar, he/she would have left the craftworld with the DE those many years ago. Still, I think it could be plausible, if they threw off every last shackle. Merely showing up with a tribute to Commoragh will result in a lot of dead Eldar, and some quite happy Dark Eldar.

**Orkeosaurus**

What if Arhra became a Khorne worshipper instead? Wouldn't that be a twist!?

**alexwars1**

Manchu wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:I, personally, believe that any eldar can be corrupted to the path of the Dark Eldar. After all, the Dark Eldar were.

The Dark Eldar were never Craftworld Eldar. You're going to have to think harder about what the word "corrupted" means in this case.

Ah, sorry, allow me to reiterate. The Dark Eldar, as Eldar, became the creatures that they are today, and therefore, Craftworld Eldar, as Eldar, could also become like what the Dark Eldar are today.

**Cryonicleech**

I think Manchu is referring to the fact that as the Eldar ran away on the Craftworlds, the Dark Eldar were already high-tailing it to Commoragh.

**Emperors Faithful**

No, the Craftworlds fled the eldar Empire before the fall. They were trying to escape a corrupt, anarchic society, I doubt that anyone saw the Fall in the form that it would take.

The DE fled into Commoragh AFTER the worst had happened.

**Manchu**

Right, EF. DE are the Eldar who recklessly and obsessively pursued sensual gratification, somehow survived at or near the epicenter of Slaanesh's birth, and then founded Commorragh where they continue to recklessly and obsessively pursue such gratification--only now this pursuit almost exclusively confined to murder, torture, etc. Meanwhile, Craftworld Eldar are those who once recklessly indulged, repented of it, and then created a culture based around an extremely disciplined gratification. My point is that the mere fact that they are both Eldar doesn't really point to the conclusion that Craftworlders could become Dark Eldar, as alexwars1 suggests. Dark Eldar never created or even saw purpose for something like the Eldar Path whereas this is the core element of Craftworld culture. In other words, the Eldar that "fell" (in terms of the Craftworld point of view) were everyone who (a) wasn't an Exodite or (b) a Craftworlder. And that group were NOT Dark Eldar, at least not (in the case of those that survived the Fall) at first.

**Emperors Faithful**

But the Eldar Codex itself states that many youthful Eldar stray or fall from the path anyway.

**Manchu**

The Path is the definitive feature for all Craftworld Eldar. Some remain on it. Some stray from it But for Dark Eldar, it does not exist at all. There is neither such a thing to follow or from which to fall away.

**Emperors Faithful**

How does that change anything? If a Craftworlder rejects the path entirely and joins wholeheartedly in the soul-eating fest how does this stop him becoming a Dark Eldar?

**Morgrim**

Hang on, didn't we have this exact argument with the exact same points 3 pages ago?

**Emperors Faithful**

It IS the same thread right?

**Morgrim**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/269713.page#1191626

Same thread, back a few pages, rather well thought out arguments from you and Manchu. *snickers* Just wondering if this was going to be new ground or repetition? *attempts to look innocent and angelic. Fails on both counts*

**Emperors Faithful**

Manchu is arguing that he can not suddenly put on a beret, drink hot chocolate from a bowl (which is awesome) eat a bagette and 'Go French'. I'm saying that, if a youthful American disregards his home and moves to France, getting citizenship etc and immersing himself in the French culture, then he is, for all intnets and purposes, French. Regardless of what some of the 'pure' Frenchies may think.

Apparently to Manchu, the French always have and always will be, French. So apparently immigrants, and thier descendants will never be French. Which honestly doesn't make sense to me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Morgrim, just noticed that your flag is Aussie (yay). Whereabouts? Not a Tazzie are you?

**Ketara**

*bangs head on desk*

Me and Manchu had this out already. It all comes to down to the significance you attach to the prefix 'dark'. Manchu interprets it a different way to me, but as there's no definitive evidence either way, both theories hold water whether you agree with them or not.

**Thor665**

How about this for a slightly different aspect of the same question;

@Manchu - let us say a young Dark Eldar was born (let us call him Drizzit for no apparent reason) and that he in mind and soul rejected the basic tenents of Dark Eldar culture. Since a young Warrior doesn't get to consume souls he has not partaken of that foul practice and on his very first training raid he escapes.

After a long and arduous journey he appears before some Craftworlders (perhaps Rangers, or maybe he falls in with some Corsairs - yeah that makes more sense) after a long journey he meets up with some Corsairs, whose wild personalities are closer to his own but who are able to teach him about the option of discipline and soul stones. When his best friend amongst the corsairs decides to return to his/her Craftworld (s)he brings young Drizzt along and together they petition for his right to walk the Path of Asurman and to have a soul stone.

Could he then walk the path in your mind?

**Emperors Faithful**

(I know this is directed at Manchu, but I'm bored.

)

I think so. It would depend on whether the Craftworld accepted him or not. I think it's entirely possible, and if this is true, then it's also possible for the exact opposite to happen.

In fact, this whole thing sounds like the making of a fantastic novel.

**Thor665**

Emperors Faithful wrote:In fact, this whole thing sounds like the making of a fantastic novel.

I foresee a series. After he teams up with a Squat, the Squat's adopted human daughter, a Ratling with a hypnotic gem of some sort, and a Space Wolf they will go on a wild spread of adventures.

**Emperors Faithful**

Hmmm, yes. There would be a few other characters I suppose. Such as a transvestite Dark Angel, and possibly a pyromanic Sister of Battle or two. And they find a data-slate containing the works of C.S. Goto's Multilasers stories. And they would all unite to journey to the Eye of Terror to cast it back into the terrible void from whence it came.

The first one would be called 'The Fellowship of the Data-Slate'.
The second part of the series would be called 'The Two Fortress Planets'.
And the last one would be called, 'The Returns of the Emperor'.

**Manchu**

I am skeptical that one not raised within Craftworld society would ever have the discipline requisite to following the Path, given that so many who are even raised in that society cannot must the resolve to do so.

**Emperors Faithful**

But if seen as an alternative to the soul-sucking, backstabbing ways of Commoragh (if one saw it truly distasteful) I suppose some may be willing to try it.

Do the exarchs follow the path? I thought they had lost themselves completely in the joys of war and lived only for that?

**Manchu**

Thinking DE society is distasteful is not enough to follow the Path. I'm only willing to consider that a DE might try to do so because it's part of Thor's hypothetical, which I think is totally unlikely. Going back to the cannibal example, one of those tribesmen would not suddenly feel that eating people was wrong. Similarly, a DE would not suddenly think that the DE lifestyle was wrong. I know Thor tried to create a transitory "corsair stage" to make this more plausible (perhaps under the mistaken impression that Eldar pirates are some sort of middle ground between Craftworld Eldar and DE when in fact they are themselves still very much Craftworld Eldar--just ask Yriel) but I do not find the scenario convincing.

I'm not sure what point you mean to make by bringing up the Exarchs.

**Emperors Faithful**

Nevermind, I forgot that the War os part of the Path. They just get stuck on it.

Anyway, a more pluasible scenario would be something akin to a DE being abandoned as a child. (Or infant) So then, the DE is not ingrained with the views of your a verage DE.

**Manchu**

Yes, I'd go with that, as I've already said in terms of the reverse situation. (I'm assuming you meant "abandoned as a infant and adopted by Craftworlders.")

**Thor665**

Manchu wrote:I know Thor tried to create a transitory "corsair stage" to make this more plausible (perhaps under the mistaken impression that Eldar pirates are some sort of middle ground between Craftworld Eldar and DE when in fact they are themselves still very much Craftworld Eldar--just ask Yriel) but I do not find the scenario convincing.

Simply made under the basis it's the only likely scenario where a DE and Craftworlder would talk. Harlequins don't count and I can't think of any other situation where the two philosophies could discuss their attitudes semi-amicably.

They are the closest thing to a middle ground between the two factions though - since it's when Craftworlders most succumb to physical and emotional excess, which is very akin to certain philosophical aspects of the DE.

**Morgrim**

I will disagree with the statement that a non-craftworlder would lack the discipline to walk the Path. And, not being able to do it for other reasons may be plausible, but I don't think discipline is cultural or that people can't learn it. Someone from a very 'wild' culture (erm... the only example I can think of that fits is hippies...) are capable of switching to a very strictly focused one (like a monk). It is hard, it is likely to be slow, there would be stumbling blocks, but there is nothing stopping it from being none if one has the stubbornness and sheer determination. Granted, that isn't many people.

The younger one is, the easier it is to do a transition of culture, so a young eldar would have an easier time switching, particularly if they were below whatever age counts as adolescence for eldar. And in such a case I'd argue that they wouldn't feel the sense of lingering 'wrongness' an older person would.

I can see a (limited) circumstance of an older eldar being forced to act in the way against their nature, somewhat. I'm not sure craftworlds would execute a wounded relatively young eldar that they tripped over. I could see a stubborn farseer attempting to redeem or enlighten the youngster. Not too sure how well it would work, but being forced into a culture where everyone walks their Path and not really having a way of getting away, I could see them eventually becoming at least a somewhat useful member of society. Either walking a completely non-combat Path (not being trusted with anything dangerous) or else likely ending up an aspect warrior. Still don't think they'd ever be fully accepted by those who knew their history, but craftworlds are too large for everyone to know everyone, and they may be treated like anyone else by those who weren't in the know.

Going the opposite way is easier. DE wouldn't be finding a lost, they'd be enslaving. Torture helps get over the hump and it's a culture that never fully trusts anyone anyway. Such a person could become a sort of higher ranked slave, one that is doing a more practical task instead of lying around screaming or dying. Again, likely to be someone's pet project rather than a common occurrence. History gives an example of slavery functioning like this, in ancient greece the 'lowest' slaves were those in the silver mines or the galley rowers. Then there were those in more visable and skilled roles, leading up to those household slaves that were responcible for managing things and in a rather trusted position. Indeed, some would be in a better situation than the lowest of the freemen. And I'm hoping that rambling made some sense, I get the feeling I'm not conveying the idea very well.

@Emperors Faithful: No, not a tassie. I'm over in WA.

**Emperors Faithful**

Couldn't have put it better myself.

OT: Seriously? There's life out in Western Australia? Over here on the Eastern Seaboard, the very idea that people actually live in Western Australia is sort of...well an urban myth. Are there many of these over there?

We only get the occasional Ninja Roo over here. However, Drop Bears frequently make thier presence known. Ussually heralded with the untimely death of some unfortunate hitchhiker.

**Manchu**

@Morgrim: Eldar (so say the Craftworlders) have a bio-pschological/spiritual predisposition to become obsessive and hedonistic. The commitment to discipline necessary to reign in those urges takes an Eldar's lifespan to hone and must be instilled as an absolute imperative from birth. This is why becoming an Outcast is so perilous but returning to the path remains possible.