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Steelmage99 wrote:
A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.

Yes the video only shows him taking 5 minutes for his movement phases. Hardly slow.

However, we need to keep things in perspective. We only have about 12 minutes of video compared to the entire tourney. Also we don't know if he was aware that he was being flimed. If he was aware that he was being taped, he may not have done as much shenanigans, as he normally might have. Also he was being watched by spectators, we don't know if he would do more shenanigans if he wern't being watched.

All in all, the video shows enough, for me to believe all the negative stuff we are hearing about his playstyle. However we need to be carefull that we don't go off the deep end and call things cheats that aren't really cheats. For example the measuring and changing of mind during movement stuff.

GG

As for the G9 template I only bring it off the side of the table (normally where my dead pile or the scenario is) when I'm going to use. Plus it's only 6" to begin with so you can't use it to see if you are in charge range while moving with it like you could if you just left your tape measure at 12" like our friend in seattle was doing. Just don't keep open measurements out that are over 6 inches and I'd say you should be good.

generalgrog wrote:

filbert wrote:
Well 'proving' someone is cheating is always subjective anyway since you don't know what is going on in their head and they are hardly likely to admit to it. All one can do is to look at the evidence presented and make a value judgement based on that evidence. I know nothing of the chap in question or the tournament; all I can say is it looks to me as if he is hovering his tape measure out while extended in order to aid his judgement of a subsequent shooting phase. That, however, is totally my call and my opinion. I wouldn't like to be the tourney judge having to decide since it is quite a subtle case.

Fair enough, but I would ask you to refer to my detailed break down of the videos, (in this very thread). I point out that the only two verified things I saw that could be considered premeasuring for shooting was the arm trick, with the spiders, and the finger measure trick with the fire dragons.

I didn't see anything with tape measure, and I watched each incident quite a few times.

GG

As I said, it is quite a subjective opinion and depends on your interpretation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSCvuTfcg0k

I think the whole tape measure hovering thing at around .28 seconds for example, looks suspicious to me. However, the caveat to that is that it is my opinion. I wouldn't like to make a judgement call in an official tourney just based on that.

and of course, if you are not careful..

those GW Red Whippy Sticks are RARELY marked correctly. My AOBR sticks have a 14inch 12inch mark.. but the BFM sticks were closer to an 11in 12inch mark..

oddly expanded or shrunk plastic?

filbert wrote:
I think the whole tape measure hovering thing at around .28 seconds for example, looks suspicious to me. However, the caveat to that is that it is my opinion. I wouldn't like to make a judgement call in an official tourney just based on that.

I believe it is obvious that he is measuring to see if he wants to move the Falcon back towards his board edge. A measurement that is quite legal BTW.

Steelmage99 wrote:

filbert wrote:
I think the whole tape measure hovering thing at around .28 seconds for example, looks suspicious to me. However, the caveat to that is that it is my opinion. I wouldn't like to make a judgement call in an official tourney just based on that.

I believe it is obvious that he is measuring to see if he wants to move the Falcon back towards his board edge. A measurement that is quite legal BTW.

Unless you are:

a) The player in question

or

b) psychic

then it is just your opinion and you can never say for certain what he is or isn't doing nor what he is thinking or intending. All I can offer and continue to offer is my opinion based on what I have seen. As has been posted by others, we have just a snippet of video as 'evidence' to go on, hence why I have said that I would not like to judge someone just on that fact alone. Clearly, the tournament organisers must have had further information upon which to base their decision.

filbert wrote:then it is just your opinion and you can never say for certain what he is or isn't doing nor what he is thinking or intending. All I can offer and continue to offer is my opinion based on what I have seen. As has been posted by others, we have just a snippet of video as 'evidence' to go on, hence why I have said that I would not like to judge someone just on that fact alone. Clearly, the tournament organisers must have had further information upon which to base their decision.

Yes, but the video can be used as an educational tool to help us in the future. And we need to be VERY carefull what we call cheating. And be sure that it is in fact cheating. If you want to call it gamey or beardy or cheesy, that's completely different.

All of this talk and accusation of cheating during the movement phase with his measuring tape, I believe is incorrect.


GG

I agree some of the stuff is eye brow raising for sure. And it is a judgment call with all of the measuring. It is in the legal area...but the possible pre-measuring is a judgement call. The disembarking (5 or so inches out) and the movement of the vehicle could just have been a play error? At the level of that competition I would think someone would have called that. But sometimes you forget what moved, lotta stuff going on etc. Honest mistake? If he was playing me I would have pointed it out, and if he persisted I would have asked for a judge. In a casual game, I would just tell him, if he persisted, eh.....just casual. I would chalk it up to a guy to watch when I play...and not play him much. I have plenty of honest players to play.

generalgrog wrote:

Yes, but the video can be used as an educational tool to help us in the future. And we need to be VERY carefull what we call cheating. And be sure that it is in fact cheating. If you want to call it gamey or beardy or cheesy, that's completely different.

All of this talk and accusation of cheating during the movement phase with his measuring tape, I believe is incorrect.


GG

If the video is to be used as examples of what not to do or what to avoid then I would humbly suggest picking only the most obvious and unambiguous examples. And yes, I would agree that the issue we have been discussing, that of the tape measure fudging, is not clear cut enough. I suppose what it boils down to is that personally, if the chap I was playing against did that, then I would probably have a word. However, as I have said, I don't play competitively and no-one I know has ever tried anything like that before.

generalgrog wrote:
I agree the arm trick was kind of shady, but hardly accurate. Not to mention that he moved his spiders backwards, NOT forwards.

while this argument might have me convinced (especially if it was from the player in question). We have missed something important, look at the army he is playing against. Space Marines, in combination with his "arm trick" he might have realized that hey my spiders are in rapid fire range... i should move them backwards an inch, then they can't get assaulted either. The other side of it, is he moves backwards, and more than likely put more then half the unit in cover against those heavy bolter turrets on all those Razorbacks.

Movement cheating is NOT always moving FORWARD, you can cheat by moving BACKWARDS just as easy.

As was discussed (ad nauseum?) in this and the other thread... going back and moving models that he already moved (even if still under their total move distance!) is not supported by the rules and could easily be called cheating. He does this over and over!

Add to it the arm measuring trick, and moving at least one model blatantly farther than it should have been... it's an open and shut case imho (and in most other people's, too).

RiTides wrote:As was discussed (ad nauseum?) in this and the other thread... going back and moving models that he already moved (even if still under their total move distance!) is not supported by the rules and could easily be called cheating. He does this over and over!

Add to it the arm measuring trick, and moving at least one model blatantly farther than it should have been... it's an open and shut case imho (and in most other people's, too).

No one has said he didn't cheat.

The issue is, is premeasuring movement distance, and then changing your mind a cheat. This clearly is not cheating, and in fact supported by page 11 of the rule book.

I quote page 11---"It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the oposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it all."

That's an exact quote from the rulebook.

GG

generalgrog wrote:No one has said he didn't cheat.

That's because the extra movement and re-movement is unquestionably cheating, along with the blatant pre-measuring.

What blatant pre-measuring do you refer to, DD?

Would you been so kind as to point out the time that he does this?

I have included the link to the first video for your convenience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLQNz-Ps1-Q

generalgrog wrote:

RiTides wrote:As was discussed (ad nauseum?) in this and the other thread... going back and moving models that he already moved (even if still under their total move distance!) is not supported by the rules and could easily be called cheating. He does this over and over!

Add to it the arm measuring trick, and moving at least one model blatantly farther than it should have been... it's an open and shut case imho (and in most other people's, too).

No one has said he didn't cheat.

The issue is, is premeasuring movement distance, and then changing your mind a cheat. This clearly is not cheating, and in fact supported by page 11 of the rule book.

I quote page 11---"It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the oposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it all."

That's an exact quote from the rulebook.

GG

True, you can choose where or if to move while you have the tape measurer out. However you Cannot start moving one unit (by measuring distances) but choose to not move it and leave it in place, then move a different unit, then go back to the first unit to finish its movement.

You must move each unit one at a time.

filbert wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

filbert wrote:
I think the whole tape measure hovering thing at around .28 seconds for example, looks suspicious to me. However, the caveat to that is that it is my opinion. I wouldn't like to make a judgement call in an official tourney just based on that.

I believe it is obvious that he is measuring to see if he wants to move the Falcon back towards his board edge. A measurement that is quite legal BTW.

Unless you are:

a) The player in question

or

b) psychic

then it is just your opinion and you can never say for certain what he is or isn't doing nor what he is thinking or intending. All I can offer and continue to offer is my opinion based on what I have seen. As has been posted by others, we have just a snippet of video as 'evidence' to go on, hence why I have said that I would not like to judge someone just on that fact alone. Clearly, the tournament organisers must have had further information upon which to base their decision.

Or

C) You know more of the background of what happened in the previous tourneys, LGS, and other events and know of him personally.

It sucks that on the internet and EVEN with a video - its still only a 'fragment' of reality. Or rather a snapshot that can still be very opinionated.
But we are on all ends of the world. Things I suppose can be subjective.

Washington local gamers know who he is. Know what he does. I'm just glad hes put away.
All I can say. Hard to point fingers at him, and explain to people around the world especially if you haven't met the shady guy himself.


So - i leave my food for thought. Whether you think he cheated or not. We over here in the rainy state are very happy.


http://tshft.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=7&func=view&catid=2&id=510#510


A website we designed for him/made for him (in which he did not fully pay - don't ask how he got the files. Friend uploaded via FTP, and he password change/jacked. Stupid friend.):

http://blacklibrarystudios.com/

We aren't Q_Qing over it, was an easy quick job, but the principle.

Demogerg wrote:True, you can choose where or if to move while you have the tape measurer out. However you Cannot start moving one unit (by measuring distances) but choose to not move it and leave it in place, then move a different unit, then go back to the first unit to finish its movement.

You must move each unit one at a time.

I of course allready said as much a few times, however I did look at the rule book on page 12, earlier, and didn't see any specific ruling saying you couldn't do this. Does someone with a rulebook handy have rule quote that says such a thing?

GG

generalgrog wrote:

Demogerg wrote:True, you can choose where or if to move while you have the tape measurer out. However you Cannot start moving one unit (by measuring distances) but choose to not move it and leave it in place, then move a different unit, then go back to the first unit to finish its movement.

You must move each unit one at a time.

I of course allready said as much a few times, however I did look at the rule book on page 12, earlier, and didn't see any specific ruling saying you couldn't do this. Does someone with a rulebook handy have rule quote that says such a thing?

GG

i think what he did while it may be questionable legality for his own units, he shuffled re-aranged his move to better suit himself against his opponent. I think he realized that if he shuffled himself around, his spiders would have a better chance of surviving all those tanks shooting at them, and give them a better cover save. also it would bring him just outside of charge range as well. I think that you guys have focused on what he's doing too much to the point you forgot there was another army on the table, and we need to look at both sides of the table.
I think he did what did to change the outcome of what his opponent could do, not what he could do. He made a poor judgement call and left his spiders a little too out in the open, he decided he didn't want them chewed up by razorback fire so he shuffled them back and changed his mind. Thats where the shadiness comes into play. While he kept everything in legal moving distance for the unit, he moved the unit, started to move on, did his arm trick, and then re-shuffled his unit. extra shady i would tell him to knock it off, once the unit is moved and he's started messuring for another unit, he needs to be stuck with his original move.

hcordes wrote: i think what he did while it may be questionable legality for his own units, he shuffled re-aranged his move to better suit himself against his opponent. I think he realized that if he shuffled himself around, his spiders would have a better chance of surviving all those tanks shooting at them, and give them a better cover save. also it would bring him just outside of charge range as well. I think that you guys have focused on what he's doing too much to the point you forgot there was another army on the table, and we need to look at both sides of the table.
I think he did what did to change the outcome of what his opponent could do, not what he could do. He made a poor judgement call and left his spiders a little too out in the open, he decided he didn't want them chewed up by razorback fire so he shuffled them back and changed his mind. Thats where the shadiness comes into play. While he kept everything in legal moving distance for the unit, he moved the unit, started to move on, did his arm trick, and then re-shuffled his unit. extra shady i would tell him to knock it off, once the unit is moved and he's started messuring for another unit, he needs to be stuck with his original move.

All of that is perfectly legal, except for the part about coming back to the unit once you have allready moved another unit.

Remember that warp spiders can make a second jump in the assault phase, so being charged is nonissue for them. Also if you look, his seer council appears to have been killed by the death company.


GG

Steelmage99 wrote:What blatant pre-measuring do you refer to, DD?

I know how to pre-measure, and he's definitely pre-measuring prior to shooting. He's using his forearm, hand and extended tape measure to check distances to enemy units while he's moving things around.

And, no, I'm not watching that dbag on video again and timing things for your convenience. However, I do invite you to go through the video and see where he's using body parts and the tape measure to check distances to enemy units.

If you don't see it, then you're either naive about how to indirectly pre-measure, or being facetious in your post to me.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:What blatant pre-measuring do you refer to, DD?

I know how to pre-measure, and he's definitely pre-measuring prior to shooting. He's using his forearm, hand and extended tape measure to check distances to enemy units while he's moving things around.

And, no, I'm not watching that dbag on video again and timing things for your convenience. However, I do invite you to go through the video and see where he's using body parts and the tape measure to check distances to enemy units.

If you don't see it, then you're either naive about how to indirectly pre-measure, or being facetious in your post to me.

I.E... you have nothing.

GG

edit..by the way your completley wrong here. No where does he use the tape measure to premeasure shooting during the movement phase. He definately is using body parts though.

generalgrog wrote:

Demogerg wrote:True, you can choose where or if to move while you have the tape measurer out. However you Cannot start moving one unit (by measuring distances) but choose to not move it and leave it in place, then move a different unit, then go back to the first unit to finish its movement.

You must move each unit one at a time.

I of course allready said as much a few times, however I did look at the rule book on page 12, earlier, and didn't see any specific ruling saying you couldn't do this. Does someone with a rulebook handy have rule quote that says such a thing?

GG

The rulebook says you select and move one unit at a time. As part of that move, you can change your mind. Nowhere does it allow you to go back.

If you're getting into "specific rulings saying you couldn't do this", then I invite you to find the specific ruling saying I cannot insert steel-toed boot through his rectum and into his colon.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
The rulebook says you select and move one unit at a time. As part of that move, you can change your mind. Nowhere does it allow you to go back.

If you're getting into "specific rulings saying you couldn't do this", then I invite you to find the specific ruling saying I cannot insert steel-toed boot through his rectum and into his colon.

Dude, nowhere am I looking for permission to do this. I was just looking for something more concrete than "My friend Bubba said that his friend JohnnyWangDD said you couldn't"

GG

generalgrog wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:What blatant pre-measuring do you refer to, DD?

I know how to pre-measure, and he's definitely pre-measuring prior to shooting. He's using his forearm, hand and extended tape measure to check distances to enemy units while he's moving things around.

And, no, I'm not watching that dbag on video again and timing things for your convenience. However, I do invite you to go through the video and see where he's using body parts and the tape measure to check distances to enemy units.

If you don't see it, then you're either naive about how to indirectly pre-measure, or being facetious in your post to me.

I.E... you have nothing.

GG

edit..by the way your completley wrong here. No where does he use the tape measure to premeasure shooting during the movement phase. He definately is using body parts though.

No, I'm not wasting my time.

He's using the extended tape measure, waving it about. Believe me, if we were to play a game, and you allow me do as he does, you won't get a single charge off, nor will I ever be out of range when I shoot. I've played against serious cheats before, and I know the tricks that he's using. Don't be naive or tell me I don't know an out-and-out cheater when I see one.
___

Oh, yeah, name-calling only weakens your arugment.

It's also a direct, deliberate violation of Rule 1.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, yeah, name-calling only weakens your arugment.

It's also a direct, deliberate violation of Rule 1.

What?

Name calling?

What are you talking about?

What parallel universe do you live in?

Total face palm to you now.

Now...I understand H.B.M.C.
GG

JohnHwangDD wrote:

He's using the extended tape measure, waving it about. Believe me, if we were to play a game, and you allow me do as he does, you won't get a single charge off, nor will I ever be out of range when I shoot. I've played against serious cheats before, and I know the tricks that he's using. Don't be naive or tell me I don't know an out-and-out cheater when I see one.

To be fair, this is the same thing I was pointing out and discussing a couple of pages back and I got shot down too. Depends if you think he is using the right to be able to measure in the movement phase as a way to cheat at guessing during the shooting phase. I would argue that you only need to measure once or twice before deciding whether or not to move a unit; you don't need to hover the tape over the table while 'contemplating'.

Keep the thread clean - otherwise this will close down like the X amount of threads about cheating, and this guy ;P heh



Man, i think the rulebook should have a rule to sayzzz dunt cheeatssss.

RogueMarket wrote:, i think the rulebook should have a rule to sayzzz dunt cheeatssss.

If that's directed at me, I don't think it's funny or fair. We have allready proven that the misconception of measuring and changing your mind about movement to be false, even though people were assuming that it was a cheat.

GG

Oh no - not an attack to you.

Don't take it as such.


I meant - the rulebook I suppose should address something along these lines - otherwise we are here, arguing over what is and isn't.

We all are just getting riled up.

RogueMarket wrote:Oh no - not an attack to you.

Don't take it as such.

Ahhhh the good old internet being hard to tell intent thing. Next thing you know I'm gonna go all out and start accusing you of calling me names and quoting dakka rule #1 and such.

GG