Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the video the models are being brought in from outside the table on the short edge.

I would agree that measuring from a unit counts it as moving, and that once you have moved on from that unit, it cannot move again. Nor should movements be taken back.

The same rules should apply as chess, once your hand is off the piece it's move is permanent.

Also, this idea of checking LoS with his arm is total BS. You can eyeball armor facings and with the fact that a known unit of measurement( a cubit, which is 18" and was based off the average length of a mans arm elbow to finger tips, which after just now measuring mine is dead on) that it counts as cheating by way of premeasuring.

my biggest peeves with this guys as a player in a TOURNAMENT setting, are 1. He leaves he tape measure extended and on the table. 2. The model shuffling bothers me, while it might not be out and out cheating... it bugs me. 3. His dice moves are suspect to me from watching the video, but then from the video you can't see his opponent either looking at them.

niceguyteddy wrote:If your playing in Vegas and catch a cheater is it still legal to break their fingers?

No, but you can do this...





NSFW (language, of course)

I've seen massive dice cheating, especially in a GT my brothers were in. They would do the cliche fist shake but then when they let the dice go, they put there hand on the table and tilt it so the dice just "slide" off.

EDIT:
OH YEAH, flash pick ups to, picking up their hits. or getting the deviation dice, picking it up sp fast so you dont see the result, and he says he's gona roll it again because you didnt see it. Silly but it happens.

*Looks around confused*

Does half the people in this thread have me on Ignore or something?

...Did someone just post something?

Was that you enmitee?

aerethan wrote:In the video the models are being brought in from outside the table on the short edge.

I would agree that measuring from a unit counts it as moving, and that once you have moved on from that unit, it cannot move again. Nor should movements be taken back.

The same rules should apply as chess, once your hand is off the piece it's move is permanent.

Also, this idea of checking LoS with his arm is total BS. You can eyeball armor facings and with the fact that a known unit of measurement( a cubit, which is 18" and was based off the average length of a mans arm elbow to finger tips, which after just now measuring mine is dead on) that it counts as cheating by way of premeasuring.

I know that it has always been a rule in tournies, where I play, that you can't premeasure before you fire. (And I believe that's in the rulebook somewhere). Where does it say that measuring from a unit count's as moving in the rule book?

Now the arm thing is certainly suspect, and I wouldn't allow it.
The fidgeting with models stuff, I would ask him to stop it.
The going back and moving models 3 minutes later I wouldn't have allowed it.
The finger trick he did with the firedragons, I wouldn't have allowed it.

These are all things that his opponent should have said stop it, or I'm getting a judge to watch.

GG

Emperors Faithful wrote:...Did someone just post something?

Was that you enmitee?

certainly not, i think it was the poster above me.

As per the rulebook you move one unit at a time, as soon as you start to measure with that unit, you must decide what they are doing.

you cannot, for example measure the movement range of your rhino, decide you need to move your land raider first, move the land raider, then go back and move the rhino.

as soon as you measure for the rhino, you must commit to its movement (or lack thereof)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Howlingmoon wrote:tournaments are bad. tournament players are bad.

Exactly! Exactly!

These videos show to us - with video evidence - that tournament gamers are cheaters. All of them. Not just this one, aot just the guy playing him, and not all the people we see walking on that awful carpet behind them. But all of them, collectively. I'd imagine that if you did a survey of all the people in that video tomorrow, they'd all list their greatest role models as Pol Pot and Stalin. That has nothing to do with the video, but I'm sure it's also true.

So remember folks, tournament gamers are terrorists, cheaters, support dictatorships and have no taste in carpet.

This message brought to you by the Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia - 'Because Winning is for Losers!'

Don't forget they kick puppies...on bad carpet.

People seem to be getting all up in arms over his measuring for movement, and then changing his mind. It's not like he measured to see how close the enemy was, then changed his mind.

Has no one thought they were going to move somewhere and then changed their mind? Are you a cheater if you do this? Does everyone always move their models to the exact perfect location everytime? If you pick your model up, move it and place it down, are you not ever allowed to reposition it? Are gamers really that anal?

I mean obviuosly this guy is an extreme example(the fact that he did this almost everytime), whereby he is going back to models and moving them and fidgeting. Except for the one instance where he moved the warp spider guy 19" he didn't really "cheat" with movement. (except for maybe the fire dragons-but video isn't clear)

Having said that, I would have asked him to stop it and not allowed him to go back to a squad and move them once he decided to go to a different squad. The reason for this is becuase it's too hard to remember where the original position of the models were.

I totally agree with evryone that the model movement shenanigans were akin to the "shell game", which made it incredibly hard to tell what he was doing with out benefit of the video. It's possible that all this fidgeting was a setup for his 19" spider move. I don't know.

I think these kinds of things should be called out by the tourney organizer about what you are, and not, allowed to do when it comes to these kinds of measuring.

GG

The best way to spot a cheater is to ask the what they go by on Dakka... (bad joke I know).

generalgrog wrote:People seem to be getting all up in arms over his measuring for movement, and then changing his mind. It's not like he measured to see how close the enemy was, then changed his mind.

Has no one thought they were going to move somewhere and then changed their mind? Are you a cheater if you do this? Does everyone always move their models to the exact perfect location everytime? If you pick your model up, move it and place it down, are you not ever allowed to reposition it? Are gamers really that anal?

I mean obviuosly this guy is an extreme example(the fact that he did this almost everytime), whereby he is going back to models and moving them and fidgeting. Except for the one instance where he moved the warp spider guy 19" he didn't really "cheat" with movement. (except for maybe the fire dragons-but video isn't clear)

Having said that, I would have asked him to stop it and not allowed him to go back to a squad and move them once he decided to go to a different squad. The reason for this is becuase it's too hard to remember where the original position of the models were.

I totally agree with evryone that the model movement shenanigans were akin to the "shell game", which made it incredibly hard to tell what he was doing with out benefit of the video. It's possible that all this fidgeting was a setup for his 19" spider move. I don't know.

I think these kinds of things should be called out by the tourney organizer about what you are, and not, allowed to do when it comes to these kinds of measuring.

GG

While I'm not trying to suggest that I have never changed my mind about movement, I think it is a little suspect of him to continually hover his tape measure and/or arm over the table in an obvious attempt to calculate range, probably for subsequent shooting round. And no, it isnt against the rules to pre measure before you move but I would argue it against the rules, or at the very least, against the spirit of the rules to use the opportunity to measure in the movement phase as an excuse to pre measure shooting attacks.

But having a G9 template is ok right? Whats the difference?

I'm not so sure having a G9 template is right to be honest. But either way, it's a bit of minefield really....

Frazzled wrote:But having a G9 template is ok right? Whats the difference?

I was reading this thread, and thought of that too, Frazz.

6 inch dowel rod, or 12 inch dowel with a 6 in mark.. are those BAD THINGS or GOOD THINGS?

In 40k, pages 11 and 12 specify that it is fine to measure movement for a unit, then decide to move it somewhere else, or not move it at all. However, once you move onto another unit you may not go back and change the movement decisions of the first unit.

So, premeasuring movement is fine (I was a little surprised by that too). (Bottom left of page 11)
Going back and shuffling models around after they have been moved and another unit has done a movement action is NOT ok. (Top left of page 12)

@Filbert

Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?

@Wehrkind

I don't think you are alone in your surprise.

It seems like a lot of people didn't know about premeasuring movement, and one even started making up rules about "when you have measured they will count as having moved" and silly stuff like that.

filbert wrote:While I'm not trying to suggest that I have never changed my mind about movement, I think it is a little suspect of him to continually hover his tape measure and/or arm over the table in an obvious attempt to calculate range, probably for subsequent shooting round. And no, it isnt against the rules to pre measure before you move but I would argue it against the rules, or at the very least, against the spirit of the rules to use the opportunity to measure in the movement phase as an excuse to pre measure shooting attacks.

Prove to me that he was using the tape measure to assist with his measuring shooting range? And it was hardly obvious, unless YOU want it to be.

I agree the arm trick was kind of shady, but hardly accurate. Not to mention that he moved his spiders backwards, NOT forwards.

GG

Steelmage99 wrote:@Filbert

Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?

I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.

Wehrkind wrote:In 40k, pages 11 and 12 specify that it is fine to measure movement for a unit, then decide to move it somewhere else, or not move it at all. However, once you move onto another unit you may not go back and change the movement decisions of the first unit.

So, premeasuring movement is fine (I was a little surprised by that too). (Bottom left of page 11)
Going back and shuffling models around after they have been moved and another unit has done a movement action is NOT ok. (Top left of page 12)

Thank you wehrkind!! That's the kind of sanity we need here.

Bravo!! Bravo!!


GG

porkuslime wrote:

Frazzled wrote:But having a G9 template is ok right? Whats the difference?

I was reading this thread, and thought of that too, Frazz.

6 inch dowel rod, or 12 inch dowel with a 6 in mark.. are those BAD THINGS or GOOD THINGS?

Exactly. Of course old fashioned whippy sticks (do they still supply whippy sticks) not only are they an absolute good, but they are holy master crafted sticks of Doom, to be revered with holy scripture and unguents, especially unguents.

generalgrog wrote:

filbert wrote:While I'm not trying to suggest that I have never changed my mind about movement, I think it is a little suspect of him to continually hover his tape measure and/or arm over the table in an obvious attempt to calculate range, probably for subsequent shooting round. And no, it isnt against the rules to pre measure before you move but I would argue it against the rules, or at the very least, against the spirit of the rules to use the opportunity to measure in the movement phase as an excuse to pre measure shooting attacks.

Prove to me that he was using the tape measure to assist with his measuring shooting range? And it was hardly obvious, unless YOU want it to be.

I agree the arm trick was kind of shady, but hardly accurate. Not to mention that he moved his spiders backwards, NOT forwards.

GG

Well 'proving' someone is cheating is always subjective anyway since you don't know what is going on in their head and they are hardly likely to admit to it. All one can do is to look at the evidence presented and make a value judgement based on that evidence. I know nothing of the chap in question or the tournament; all I can say is it looks to me as if he is hovering his tape measure out while extended in order to aid his judgement of a subsequent shooting phase. That, however, is totally my call and my opinion. I wouldn't like to be the tourney judge having to decide since it is quite a subtle case.

Yep they still include the whippy sticks.

filbert wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:@Filbert

Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?

I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.

A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.

Steelmage99 wrote:

filbert wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:@Filbert

Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?

I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.

A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.

Well quite, although I would suggest there are a myriad of ways to speed up one's play that don't involve retracting a tape measure which takes all of two seconds.

filbert wrote:
Well 'proving' someone is cheating is always subjective anyway since you don't know what is going on in their head and they are hardly likely to admit to it. All one can do is to look at the evidence presented and make a value judgement based on that evidence. I know nothing of the chap in question or the tournament; all I can say is it looks to me as if he is hovering his tape measure out while extended in order to aid his judgement of a subsequent shooting phase. That, however, is totally my call and my opinion. I wouldn't like to be the tourney judge having to decide since it is quite a subtle case.

Fair enough, but I would ask you to refer to my detailed break down of the videos, (in this very thread). I point out that the only two verified things I saw that could be considered premeasuring for shooting was the arm trick, with the spiders, and the finger measure trick with the fire dragons.

I didn't see anything with tape measure, and I watched each incident quite a few times.

GG

filbert wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

filbert wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:@Filbert

Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?

I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.

A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.

Well quite, although I would suggest there are a myriad of ways to speed up one's play that don't involve retracting a tape measure which takes all of two seconds.

But we are not talking about a retractable tape measure, are we? We are talking about a GW whippy stick.

Perhaps a sheath would be in order, like for a sword.

Steelmage99 wrote:

filbert wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

filbert wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:@Filbert

Following that logic, your aren't sure a red GW-supplied measuring stick is is right either, do you?

I think it's fine to use it for it's designated purpose, that is to say the measurement of movement. I think I would draw the line at people leaving them lying around on the table or hovering them over the table while 'calculating' moves. But then again, I don't play competitively so this never crops up with me.

A fun aspect is that in the original article, the "cheater" was also accused of slow-playing.
Imagine how much slower his game would have been accused of being, had he put the ruler away after each units movement.

Well quite, although I would suggest there are a myriad of ways to speed up one's play that don't involve retracting a tape measure which takes all of two seconds.

But we are not talking about a retractable tape measure, are we? We are talking about a GW whippy stick.

Perhaps a sheath would be in order, like for a sword.

Now that, I would like to see!

But even then you'd have a rough guess of how long that is.
Of course it will make them way more interesting.