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Or, inversely, bringing their power to match the point cost of 25. They are few in number and only fielded in quantity when Chaos gets its act together.

But that's not how GW operates! So yeah, 18 point PAGK, that way we need to field more (and so buy more)
I would love for GW to prove me wrong though because that's a depressing thought.

I'd be happy with 18pt GK's and 28pt justicars. Add additional GK's at +20 points per model. That would put a 5 man GK squad at an even 100 points, and a 10 man at 200. Yeah, it's 50 points more than 10 space wolves, but it's worth it.

For goodness sake's give the boys in grey some drop pods!!!

I'd rather see the Stormraven and jet bikes instead of yet another drop pod army, to be honest. GKs have a golden opportunity to distance themselves from classic marines.

I expect to see stormravens in the next Daemonhunters book, and the ability to induct them into your existing spess muhreen force.

There's a rumor though about GW sending allies outside of Apocalypse the way of the dodo
Which is something I'm very much for.

Edit: That'd put an end to some of the ridiculous tricks people pull off using the allies rule.

And an end to the imperial guard as a viable tournament army

I don't know how IG fares in tournaments, but it's rather sad on Games Workshop's part if that army is gimped without allies.
But then it means that if the allies rule stays that the GK/SOB codex need to be balanced with the Imperial Guards and Space Marines in mind, potentially diminishing the power of specific units in order not to create a screw-up like currently.

So either the good toys are shared and probably pre-nerfed, or only the lesser toys are shared and IG players won't care/use them since the only thing they want is an Inquisitor with Mystics and Sages

That's just poor design.

IG mainly need the Inquisitor for psychic defense, as the power level of these abilities is reaching ever more preposterous levels with every new book. The deep strike protection is also helpful.

In any case, it will take a very long time for the allies to be phased out, since both the Daemon and Witch Hunter books would have to be rendered invalid with Codex:GK and Codex: SoB, respectively. And anyway, I do not for one millisecond believe they would get rid of Inquisitors and Assassins. They have always been around and always will be around. Grey Knights and Sisters will undoubtedly no longer be able to be allied to other armies (although I can see an exception for a unit of GK Terminators as an HQ or elite choice, as that is also a classic option). And if we're being honest, what "screw-ups" exist currently? Other than deep strike protection (and for IG a psychic hood) with Inquisitors, no one uses allies for anything else. Both the IG and Space Marine books play way better if they stick to their own units. I don't understand where the histrionics stem from.

Fluff reasons.

I hate the unlimited range psionic defense items.

GW seems to agree, since 5th there has not been another one. It all got cut out.

So once Inquisition gets dumped back to 24" pdychic hoods, ill stop hating on the allies system. Oh and Eldar too. Just like them, to hide behind a wall of tanks andstill bring the most powerful anti psi onto the field.

You mean that creating a bubble of carnage for anyone who dares deepstrike in proximity is not a screw-up? That's the only one, but it's a huge one. Re-reading what I wrote I see that I used the plural, my mistake on that one. But that trick is doubly painful and annoying when more and more armies are capable of deepstriking and are balanced around their ability to do so (hello Tyranids and your AV that *needs* a pod!).

You get to deny a pretty large zone from drop pods, deepstrikers and daemons. Units that, you know, usually want to be up close to do their shtick. Not only that, it scales insanely well once superheavies enter the battle. With that in mind my gut feeling is that GW will reel in the ability to take allies or limit it to specifif fluffy units like Voronesh, in which case it's probably no longer interesting from a mathhammer point.

And accusing of histrionics? Did I offend you by giving my opinion? Kungfuhustler posted his, I posted mine, and so forth like normal people engaged in a discussion. What will happen to GK/DH/Inq is totally unknown and so open to a multitude of interpretations. Seems like you don't want your cherished IG to lose a toy

I'm of the oppinion that the current Inq/hood/mystics combo is fairly balanced in an IG force. Running without it many IG builds are easily crushed by deepstrike armies, and the hood with unlimited range levels the playing field against eldar a little less than half of all turns, keeping them honest. 4d6 inches is a gamble for my opponents (I run two of these) and adds another element of risk (and fun) to the game. Meh.

Without the hood, at least, IG are toasted by psy-creep.

Without the anti deepstrike radius they are severely hindered. I know a few spess marine players who also use mystics, but the reasoning behind it if baffling to me.

Time to prepare for the time where not every warband is immune to psionics provided by a 3rd edition Codex.

Come on, kunfuhustler, you need to prepare for the possibilty of losing the unlimited range fore sure.

GW has scaled the hood back to 24" since 5th ed. Yes GW is known for having multiple versions of the same piece of wargear in the game, but once it gets updated they get evened out.

My two cents on various things

- The idea that Guard are unviable if they DON'T have access to a 3ed Inq and Mystics seems a bit silly. The codex was only released last year. There are lots of new goodies in it. I don't believe scrapping allied inquisitors will suddenly ruin the army

- Sisters get 3+ because of Power Armour. Power Armour is Power Armour. Just like Flak armour is the same regardless if it's the Cadian flak jacket or the Catachan, um, vest.... SM Power Armour has systems that allow him to stay operational for months/years at a time, fight in any environment, even space, and interface with his current enhanced muscluature through a Black Carapace, giving him S and T and I 4. A 'regular' suit of power armour does none of these things, it just gives you a 3+ save, and the power bundles replicate your movements so that you can even move inside it....

Information gleaned from a billion different novels and rulebooks over the years.

Oshova wrote:A Space Marine is bigger than a Sister because a Space Marine has been genetically engineered to be more muscley.

Also, a space marine is a male, and a Sister is a female. There *are* average height and muscle mass differences.

I'd be happy with 18pt GK's and 28pt justicars. Add additional GK's at +20 points per model. That would put a 5 man GK squad at an even 100 points, and a 10 man at 200. Yeah, it's 50 points more than 10 space wolves, but it's worth it.

For goodness sake's give the boys in grey some drop pods!!!

Wrong!
Grey Knights are in reality worth exactly 15 points each!!!!!!
Hopefully GW will get that through and make rules for the accordingly, itehr lower point cost or up power levels to match the ridiculously overpriced 25p each they have currently.

Pyriel- wrote:

I'd be happy with 18pt GK's and 28pt justicars. Add additional GK's at +20 points per model. That would put a 5 man GK squad at an even 100 points, and a 10 man at 200. Yeah, it's 50 points more than 10 space wolves, but it's worth it.

For goodness sake's give the boys in grey some drop pods!!!

Wrong!
Grey Knights are in reality worth exactly 15 points each!!!!!!
Hopefully GW will get that through and make rules for the accordingly, itehr lower point cost or up power levels to match the ridiculously overpriced 25p each they have currently.

So, GKs that have marine statlines but have special rules are worth the same as tacmarines?

Grey knights are much better than tactical marines but they are not worth 25 points a piece and a Justicar is definitely not worth 50 points.

That's a full squad of 10 termaguants or 5 Tau Firewarriors (who themselves are overpriced). A tactical marine sargeant has access to more wargear to give them a variety of abilities as well even though their basic stats are worse and they do not have the special rules that a Justicar does.

I can see a tooled up Justicar with different wargear being 50 points but when compared to other things at that price it is pricey.

rogueeyes wrote:Grey knights are much better than tactical marines but they are not worth 25 points a piece and a Justicar is definitely not worth 50 points.

That's a full squad of 10 termaguants or 5 Tau Firewarriors (who themselves are overpriced). A tactical marine sargeant has access to more wargear to give them a variety of abilities as well even though their basic stats are worse and they do not have the special rules that a Justicar does.

I can see a tooled up Justicar with different wargear being 50 points but when compared to other things at that price it is pricey.

Definitely not 25 and 50

I think 18 and 30-35 would be more appropriate.

Maybe 18 on the power armored GK, but 30-35 seems low for a specialized terminator squad. Keep in mind that both units are likely to see tweeks to bring there special rule back in line with their relative abilities of 3rd-4th ed. I generally think the power armored GK should be kept at 25pts but given 2+ saves, making it artificer armor.

Given the more fleet based strike force nature of the GK, stormravens could make sense. As someone else said, the last thing we need is another drop pod army.

I personally think the Grey Knights should go to having their Terminators as Troops, with power armored troops being used in specialized roles, that still allows them to be used as troops, but provide recon for teleporter and dropship deployments and supply support fire with special weapons.

The special and heavy weapons GK have should also be expanded.

ArbitorIan wrote:SM Power Armour has systems that allow him to stay operational for months/years at a time, fight in any environment, even space, and interface with his current enhanced muscluature through a Black Carapace, giving him S and T and I 4. A 'regular' suit of power armour does none of these things, it just gives you a 3+ save, and the power bundles replicate your movements so that you can even move inside it.....

space marines are S/T/I 4 because they're 7 and a half foot tall steroid superfreaks genetically engineered by the emperor... not because they're wearing spiffy armor. don't believe me? look at the scouts. visually, the armor doesn't deserve to be 3+ but it is. fluffwise, it shouldn't give the same protection that a marine's much heavier yet not less advanced armor does but in game it does. ultimately, it's not game breaking and provides an interesting middleground between marines and guardsmen, with stats of both on the same line.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I'm of the oppinion that the current Inq/hood/mystics combo is fairly balanced in an IG force. Running without it many IG builds are easily crushed by deepstrike armies, and the hood with unlimited range levels the playing field against eldar a little less than half of all turns, keeping them honest. 4d6 inches is a gamble for my opponents (I run two of these) and adds another element of risk (and fun) to the game. Meh.

Without the hood, at least, IG are toasted by psy-creep.

Without the anti deepstrike radius they are severely hindered. I know a few spess marine players who also use mystics, but the reasoning behind it if baffling to me.

Though opinions are like butts, in that everyone has one, I completely disagree. My buddy runs IG with niether of these and if he doesn't come in first in the local tourney his dice had to have been bad. The hood isn't so much of a big deal, "leveling the field" psychically against eldar should be hard they are the best psychers in 40k fluff wise besides tzeentch. It stops adding fun when an inquisitor with 2 mystics along with Pask belt your entire army with 5 str7 ap2 blasts at bs4. The counter balance to podding armies is that they can only shoot when they arrive, this creates a huge problem against orcs and other CC focused armies.

Guard have too many things that can effect nearly every aspect of the game to say they would be underpowered by removing two out dated options.

aka_mythos wrote:Maybe 18 on the power armored GK, but 30-35 seems low for a specialized terminator squad. Keep in mind that both units are likely to see tweeks to bring there special rule back in line with their relative abilities of 3rd-4th ed. I generally think the power armored GK should be kept at 25pts but given 2+ saves, making it artificer armor.

Given the more fleet based strike force nature of the GK, stormravens could make sense. As someone else said, the last thing we need is another drop pod army.

I personally think the Grey Knights should go to having their Terminators as Troops, with power armored troops being used in specialized roles, that still allows them to be used as troops, but provide recon for teleporter and dropship deployments and supply support fire with special weapons.

The special and heavy weapons GK have should also be expanded.

From what we've seen in the coming blood angels codex we can make an educated guess that the Storm Raven will be included in a future Grey knight codex. From the different fluff I've read I can also see drops pods as well as the most other typical SM vehicles. Grey Knight's are basically a first response chapter to demonic invasions. Often times they use T-Hawks and drops pods together in order to get to where they need to be. If anything I would think Grey Knights should have Drop pods rather than many other marine chapters.

warboss wrote:
space marines are S/T/I 4 because they're 7 and a half foot tall steroid superfreaks genetically engineered by the emperor... not because they're wearing spiffy armor. don't believe me? look at the scouts. visually, the armor doesn't deserve to be 3+ but it is. fluffwise, it shouldn't give the same protection that a marine's much heavier yet not less advanced armor does but in game it does. ultimately, it's not game breaking and provides an interesting middleground between marines and guardsmen, with stats of both on the same line.

Scout armor is 4+

Brother SRM wrote:

warboss wrote:
space marines are S/T/I 4 because they're 7 and a half foot tall steroid superfreaks genetically engineered by the emperor... not because they're wearing spiffy armor. don't believe me? look at the scouts. visually, the armor doesn't deserve to be 3+ but it is. fluffwise, it shouldn't give the same protection that a marine's much heavier yet not less advanced armor does but in game it does. ultimately, it's not game breaking and provides an interesting middleground between marines and guardsmen, with stats of both on the same line.

Scout armor is 4+

i know. my point is that the armor doesn't give the marines the stats listed above (s/t/i), the fact that they're space marines does. arb ian was commenting that the armor does it.

Hmm, this thread is now perhaps better suited to a different board than the N & R one.

aka_mythos wrote:I personally think the Grey Knights should go to having their Terminators as Troops, with power armored troops being used in specialized roles, that still allows them to be used as troops, but provide recon for teleporter and dropship deployments and supply support fire with special weapons. The special and heavy weapons GK have should also be expanded.

I like this idea. Most of the Daemon fighting is done by the terminators, so relegating the power armored marines to a support role (heavy weapons, scouting, clearing out the surrounding heretics) makes sense.

And people really need to stop with this pointless argument about power armor. Every statistic in the game is a very general abstraction. Is a Space Marine really only 33% stronger than a guardsman? What armor is worth a crap when a butterknife will cut through it 1/3 of the time? Fluff != rules, period.

So, GKs that have marine statlines but have special rules are worth the same as tacmarines?

Grey knights are much better than tactical marines but they are not worth 25 points a piece and a Justicar is definitely not worth 50 points.

That's a full squad of 10 termaguants or 5 Tau Firewarriors (who themselves are overpriced). A tactical marine sargeant has access to more wargear to give them a variety of abilities as well even though their basic stats are worse and they do not have the special rules that a Justicar does.

I can see a tooled up Justicar with different wargear being 50 points but when compared to other things at that price it is pricey.

You heard correct.
GK troopers are worth exactly 15 points each and no they are not better then "tac marines", they are in fact worse since tac marines are worth 16p.
Shocking I bet but here is why...

Some time ago I sacrificed almost 24 full hours (two full night shifts at work with nothing to do but goof off) to make some heavy duty math statistics for a GK codex/rules project over at another ungrateful pos board. The project was dead serious however and so was the work I put into it.

So how did I do it and how come I came up with the GK-worth-only-15p-each conclusion?


I took a troop squad of every kind in the 40k game, SM, CSM with all variants, stormtroopers etc etc, you name it and paired those squads of vs a GK squad so that equal points met equal points.

I them proceeded to space them 24´apart (all in theory and with pure math, no dice was thrown as that would produce a flawed result) and gave first the other troop and then the GKs first turn.
I "played" both units to their best abilities, using them as tehy are ment to, thus IS troops did not want to end up in melee etc.

I calculated the outcomes with what troop earned back what points vs the others and thus got an EXACT point-per-mini result for each and every encounter vs the GKs.

I then proceeded to DO IT ALL AGAIN but with different wargear loadouts, still giving both opponents the benefit of both first turn and the drawback of second turn.

I then DID IT ALL OVER AGAIN with yet other wargear loadouts.

I then DID IT ALL OVER AGAIN buying transports for the troop units that could take them, always keeping point costs equal.

All was done with exact mathematical percentage values every single step of the way, no shortcuts were ever used in rounding up or down killed minis etc.

The result, was staggering, the GKS were on average only worth 15p each.
Why?
Its not in the statlines, its in the wargear. Most squads can take waregar that negates GK armour like SM plasmacannons, missiles, CSM plasma pistols etc etc etc so a measly dirt cheap guardsman in a unit can kill of a 25p GK with ease if he is toting a plasmagun, melta or even a flamer or a heavy weapon.
It is those things, besides transports that strongly favour melee units vs GKs and can get cover saves to shooty units like IG that do it.

Even though the result was 15p per GK I biased the duel scenarios towards GKs in that I never used transports as means to get away from charge range for squads that did not want to end up in melee with the GKs.



So there you have it black on white and if you wish to refute my claim please bring substantial proof of that otehr then your opinion since I have TONS to back up myconclusion.
Knowing GW they´ll overprice the GK as usual making them utter crap yet again. Hopefully someone can send this post to the GW dev team just so they get something to think about when doing the next GK codex. A simple thing like better shrouding or more varied GK waregar would do wonders with making them worth more points.

Thanks, guys.

So... You're telling us that a space marine with a storm bolter, true grit, and a str 6 weapon + shrouding, the ability to take psycannons and superflamers

=

1 point less than a marine with a bolter & chainsword because that marine can take melta & plasma?

YOUR FAIL IS THE FAIL THAT HAS PIERCED THE INTERNETS

GK's do not play in the same fashion as other troops. there is an article about it on this very board.