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So... You're telling us that a space marine with a storm bolter, true grit, and a str 6 weapon + shrouding, the ability to take psycannons and superflamers

=

1 point less than a marine with a bolter & chainsword because that marine can take melta & plasma?

YOUR FAIL IS THE FAIL THAT HAS PIERCED THE INTERNETS

GK's do not play in the same fashion as other troops. there is an article about it on this very board.

you fail in that you cannot even grasp basic reasoning.
You also fail in coming with crap argumentation, no reasoning otehr then your own point of view and capslock "fail" screaming. Didnt you learn anything in 3:d grade?

Its not the stormbolter and S6 weapon (reread my post instead of being so damn slow). IF and I say IF all otehr troops like Tac squads guard platoons etc only came naked, pretty much as the GKs do with NO transports, no heavy GK killing weapons (GK dont have range power like other troops have) but only bolters or lasguns vs GK stormbolters then yes, GKs would pretty much own them.

But sadly GKS dont have a magic ability to pop up in instant melee, nor do pure GKs have cheap transports, nor any protection against AP2-3 assault weapons or heavy weapons otehr troop units dish out.
The ranged fight is a massacre for GKs and as most deployments start at least 24´apart this is where things are to be calculated from.

Against troops like thousand sons and their AP3 bolters its a pure massacre.

Try and stand a tac squad up against a GK squad and see how much that plasmacannon or missile will own compared to the stormbolters.


And as for not playing in the same fashion you mean to tell me foot slogging, non transport GKs are a match to dirt cheap troop units that massacre them in shooting?
Or that the 250p landraiders that are popped by 150p melta drop pods on first turn are any kind of advantage?

Yes we all get that the GK's have few advantages over many modern army's i personally think you should judge them alongside SW grey hunters, both are versatile ranged/melee units and the GH's are only 15 points with an extra attack on the charge and counter attack and grenades, so i think we'll see grey knights becoming cheaper with the new codex.

I just hope they dont tough the nemesis weapons or shrouding etc or they'd lose the feel of grey knights to me...

Edit: and i like being able to kill eternal warriors with my force weapons

I would like for them to keep costing 25p each but get their power levels up to match that.

As it is now the GK stormbolter is not worth more then a tac bolter.

10 Tac squad + plasmacannon = 175p
6 GK = 175p

This is what is so pathetic. The 6 stormbolters output in wounds is equal to the tac squads (the same point costs) but the tac squad will absolutely massacre the GKs, even if the lone GK happen to survive against all odds in getting to melee it will die on the first turn of it anyway.

Pyriel- wrote:

So, GKs that have marine statlines but have special rules are worth the same as tacmarines?

Grey knights are much better than tactical marines but they are not worth 25 points a piece and a Justicar is definitely not worth 50 points.

That's a full squad of 10 termaguants or 5 Tau Firewarriors (who themselves are overpriced). A tactical marine sargeant has access to more wargear to give them a variety of abilities as well even though their basic stats are worse and they do not have the special rules that a Justicar does.

I can see a tooled up Justicar with different wargear being 50 points but when compared to other things at that price it is pricey.

You heard correct.
GK troopers are worth exactly 15 points each and no they are not better then "tac marines", they are in fact worse since tac marines are worth 16p.
Shocking I bet but here is why...

Some time ago I sacrificed almost 24 full hours (two full night shifts at work with nothing to do but goof off) to make some heavy duty math statistics for a GK codex/rules project over at another ungrateful pos board. The project was dead serious however and so was the work I put into it.

So how did I do it and how come I came up with the GK-worth-only-15p-each conclusion?


I took a troop squad of every kind in the 40k game, SM, CSM with all variants, stormtroopers etc etc, you name it and paired those squads of vs a GK squad so that equal points met equal points.

I them proceeded to space them 24´apart (all in theory and with pure math, no dice was thrown as that would produce a flawed result) and gave first the other troop and then the GKs first turn.
I "played" both units to their best abilities, using them as tehy are ment to, thus IS troops did not want to end up in melee etc.

I calculated the outcomes with what troop earned back what points vs the others and thus got an EXACT point-per-mini result for each and every encounter vs the GKs.

I then proceeded to DO IT ALL AGAIN but with different wargear loadouts, still giving both opponents the benefit of both first turn and the drawback of second turn.

I then DID IT ALL OVER AGAIN with yet other wargear loadouts.

I then DID IT ALL OVER AGAIN buying transports for the troop units that could take them, always keeping point costs equal.

All was done with exact mathematical percentage values every single step of the way, no shortcuts were ever used in rounding up or down killed minis etc.

The result, was staggering, the GKS were on average only worth 15p each.
Why?
Its not in the statlines, its in the wargear. Most squads can take waregar that negates GK armour like SM plasmacannons, missiles, CSM plasma pistols etc etc etc so a measly dirt cheap guardsman in a unit can kill of a 25p GK with ease if he is toting a plasmagun, melta or even a flamer or a heavy weapon.
It is those things, besides transports that strongly favour melee units vs GKs and can get cover saves to shooty units like IG that do it.

Even though the result was 15p per GK I biased the duel scenarios towards GKs in that I never used transports as means to get away from charge range for squads that did not want to end up in melee with the GKs.



So there you have it black on white and if you wish to refute my claim please bring substantial proof of that otehr then your opinion since I have TONS to back up myconclusion.
Knowing GW they´ll overprice the GK as usual making them utter crap yet again. Hopefully someone can send this post to the GW dev team just so they get something to think about when doing the next GK codex. A simple thing like better shrouding or more varied GK waregar would do wonders with making them worth more points.

So what you're really saying is, "I failed statistics in high school, but I'm going to make up a story about how I took painstaking research to make my inane wishlisting sound plausible."

I could go into extensive detail how stupid and implausible this is, but hopefully anyone who reads this should be able to come to that conclusion themselves.

Maybe, but i'm being nice cause he's an awesome sculptor (compared to me anyways )

DEATH89 wrote:Yes we all get that the GK's have few advantages over many modern army's i personally think you should judge them alongside SW grey hunters, both are versatile ranged/melee units and the GH's are only 15 points with an extra attack on the charge and counter attack and grenades, so i think we'll see grey knights becoming cheaper with the new codex.

I just hope they dont tough the nemesis weapons or shrouding etc or they'd lose the feel of grey knights to me...

Edit: and i like being able to kill eternal warriors with my force weapons

They are going to be cheaper, but they're never going to be cheaper than tacmarines. They deserve to be in the range of 18-20 right now. S6 in CC combined with true grit and shrouding and fearless does not equal 15 points, no matter how many times you say the word "mathematical" in your argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:

So... You're telling us that a space marine with a storm bolter, true grit, and a str 6 weapon + shrouding, the ability to take psycannons and superflamers

=

1 point less than a marine with a bolter & chainsword because that marine can take melta & plasma?

YOUR FAIL IS THE FAIL THAT HAS PIERCED THE INTERNETS

GK's do not play in the same fashion as other troops. there is an article about it on this very board.

you fail in that you cannot even grasp basic reasoning.
You also fail in coming with crap argumentation, no reasoning otehr then your own point of view and capslock "fail" screaming. Didnt you learn anything in 3:d grade?

Its not the stormbolter and S6 weapon (reread my post instead of being so damn slow). IF and I say IF all otehr troops like Tac squads guard platoons etc only came naked, pretty much as the GKs do with NO transports, no heavy GK killing weapons (GK dont have range power like other troops have) but only bolters or lasguns vs GK stormbolters then yes, GKs would pretty much own them.

But sadly GKS dont have a magic ability to pop up in instant melee, nor do pure GKs have cheap transports, nor any protection against AP2-3 assault weapons or heavy weapons otehr troop units dish out.
The ranged fight is a massacre for GKs and as most deployments start at least 24´apart this is where things are to be calculated from.

Against troops like thousand sons and their AP3 bolters its a pure massacre.

Try and stand a tac squad up against a GK squad and see how much that plasmacannon or missile will own compared to the stormbolters.


And as for not playing in the same fashion you mean to tell me foot slogging, non transport GKs are a match to dirt cheap troop units that massacre them in shooting?
Or that the 250p landraiders that are popped by 150p melta drop pods on first turn are any kind of advantage?

Nobody's saying GK aren't overpriced, but your "conclusion" that they should only cost 15 points is downright stupid, and does indeed show that you have no working knowledge of game balance, statistics, or functional logic.

This game is balanced around some units having counters to outher forces. That plasma cannon that wrecks your PAGKs gets laughed at by an Ork or Tyranid player. Same goes for those 23point 1ksons marines. That's why 9/10 times I see players taking a multi-melta in their tac squads because it's much more useful universally.

Not to mention crafting a scenario that's basically "who wins a sub 200 point game" which I shouldn't even need to explain is a terrible balance metric.

Didn't mean cheaper than tac marines just cheaper than they are, I'd be happ with NFW, Storm Bolter, Bolt Pistol, F+G grenades and shrouding for 20 points, hell even 25 if they throw in the Aegis (army wide psychic hoods) aswell.

Edit: and take fearless away please just make us stubborn Ld10 instead

Well, I agree that they definitely should cost more than tac marines (I don't care how much "data" supports his conclusion, it is still one of madness, they are overpriced but not by that much), but the psycannons/super flamers are kind of part of the problem. A large portion of the points obviously goes towards the nemesis force weapon and storm bolter w/true grit, yet they give up both of those things AND pay 30 points on top of that to get a psycannon. Losing those WS5 S6 attacks hurts, especially when points limit unit size. Not being able to take dedicated transports is also a serious issue. Hopefully they borrow a page from the Blood Angels with dedicated raiders all around and stormravens as heavy support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:
Try and stand a tac squad up against a GK squad and see how much that plasmacannon or missile will own compared to the stormbolters.

Okay. 10-man tac squad with missile launcher and plasmagun = 180 points. 12-man GK squad with no heavy weapons at your proposed cost of 15 per.

Marines go first. 8 bolters = 0.87 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.97 wounds, so two dead.
Grey Knights go. 10 stormbolters = 2.18 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 5.82 bolters = 0.63 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.73 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 8.27 stormbolters = 1.8 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 4 bolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.54 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 6.73 stormbolters = 1.5 unsaved wounds. At this point, either the plasma or the missile launcher would have to take a save, but let's assume they pass and only bolters die.
Marines go. 2.5 bolters = 0.27 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.37 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 5.36 stormbolters = 1.17 unsaved wounds. Again, assuming the special/heavy weapons pass their checks.
Marines go. 1.33 bolters = 0.14 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.24 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 4.12 stormbolters = 0.9 unsaved wounds. At this point, both guys are taking checks, but we're still assuming only the bolters die.
Marines go. 0.43 bolters = 0.05 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.15 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2.97 stormbolters = 0.64 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.8 of PG&ML = 0.88 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2 stormbolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.36 of PG&ML = 0.4 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go 1.6 stormbolters = 0.35 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights win with at least one guy standing.

So the Marines BARELY(as in, a fraction of one marine left standing) win if you let them go first
EDIT: Strike that, I realized I underestimated the stormbolter performance one round, so they actually STILL WIN even if you let the marines go first, ignore shrouding completely, ignore the impact of all but omnipresent cover on the damage output of the special/heavy weapon, always assume the special/heavy weapon make their saves, and allow fractions of models to continue firing (which also benefits the special/heavy more). If we did the same thing with any of the above factors counted in, the Grey Knights would win hands down. If we brought things to melee, the Grey Knights would win hands down. They are overpriced, but your "highly researched conclusion" as to their value is complete and utter nonsense.

So yes, your fail DOES indeed pierce the internet.

Terminus wrote:Well, I agree that they definitely should cost more than tac marines (I don't care how much "data" supports his conclusion, it is still one of madness, they are overpriced but not by that much), but the psycannons/super flamers are kind of part of the problem. A large portion of the points obviously goes towards the nemesis force weapon and storm bolter w/true grit, yet they give up both of those things AND pay 30 points on top of that to get a psycannon. Losing those WS5 S6 attacks hurts, especially when points limit unit size. Not being able to take dedicated transports is also a serious issue. Hopefully they borrow a page from the Blood Angels with dedicated raiders all around and stormravens as heavy support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:
Try and stand a tac squad up against a GK squad and see how much that plasmacannon or missile will own compared to the stormbolters.

Okay. 10-man tac squad with missile launcher and plasmagun = 180 points. 12-man GK squad with no heavy weapons at your proposed cost of 15 per.

Marines go first. 8 bolters = 0.87 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.97 wounds, so two dead.
Grey Knights go. 10 stormbolters = 2.18 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 5.82 bolters = 0.63 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.73 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 8.27 stormbolters = 1.8 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 4 bolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.54 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 6.73 stormbolters = 1.5 unsaved wounds. At this point, either the plasma or the missile launcher would have to take a save, but let's assume they pass and only bolters die.
Marines go. 2.5 bolters = 0.27 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.37 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 5.36 stormbolters = 1.17 unsaved wounds. Again, assuming the special/heavy weapons pass their checks.
Marines go. 1.33 bolters = 0.14 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.24 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 4.12 stormbolters = 0.9 unsaved wounds. At this point, both guys are taking checks, but we're still assuming only the bolters die.
Marines go. 0.43 bolters = 0.05 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.15 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2.97 stormbolters = 0.64 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.8 of PG&ML = 0.88 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2 stormbolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.36 of PG&ML = 0.4 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go 1.6 stormbolters = 0.35 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights win with at least one guy standing.

So the Marines BARELY(as in, a fraction of one marine left standing) win if you let them go first
EDIT: Strike that, I realized I underestimated the stormbolter performance one round, so they actually STILL WIN even if you let the marines go first, ignore shrouding completely, ignore the impact of all but omnipresent cover on the damage output of the special/heavy weapon, always assume the special/heavy weapon make their saves, and allow fractions of models to continue firing (which also benefits the special/heavy more). If we did the same thing with any of the above factors counted in, the Grey Knights would win hands down. If we brought things to melee, the Grey Knights would win hands down. They are overpriced, but your "highly researched conclusion" as to their value is complete and utter nonsense.

So yes, your fail DOES indeed pierce the internet.

Terminus, you really didn't need to do the calculations, because his model was so ridiculously flawed to begin with.

For example: what if there's a piece of area terrain between the two squads (something that will happen in nearly every game), nearly negating the benefit of the plasma cannon he used to show how tacmarines are supposedly so much better while completely not being a detriment to the storm bolters?

Hell, let's say the cost is 20 points per. 175 points for 10 marines with PG and PC, versus 8 PAGKs (no Justicar for the sake of simplicity) Don't forget the PA GKs will obviously be trying to close to melee, while the tacmarines can't move if they want to fire their PC

Without terrain, PAGK go first

16 SB shots: 1.77 dead marines. Rounding to 2.
1 PG shot + 1 PC shot (assuming an average of 1 hit per shot to account for scatter) + 6 bolter shots = 1.64 dead PAGKs, rounding up to 2.

12 SB shots = 1.32 dead marines, rounding down to 1

2 PG shots + 1 PC shot + 10 bolter shots = 2.6 dead PAGK, rounding to 3

6 SB shots = .6, round to 1. PA charge in for 9 S6 attacks for another 2 dead marines while the remaining marines son't even manage 1 kill most of the time. In the end the PAGKs will barely win most of the time due to their nigh-insurmountable CC advantage. This is especially true if we instead include a Justicar's PW into it (trading 2 PAGKs for a Justicar). If Tacmarines go first, they'll win by a more decent margin most of the time. Fair trade without terrain: equal points of similar units mean that the first turn advantage will be the winning factor.

With terrain in between it's not even close though. Even if we assume PAGKs go second, getting a cover save makes the Tacmarines a joke.

So what you're really saying is, "I failed statistics in high school, but I'm going to make up a story about how I took painstaking research to make my inane wishlisting sound plausible."

I could go into extensive detail how stupid and implausible this is, but hopefully anyone who reads this should be able to come to that conclusion themselves.

Your counter argumentation shines a light on severe intellectual challenges. Maybe I should type in baby speak next time to get through to you.

They are going to be cheaper, but they're never going to be cheaper than tacmarines. They deserve to be in the range of 18-20 right now. S6 in CC combined with true grit and shrouding and fearless does not equal 15 points, no matter how many times you say the word "mathematical" in your argument.

And all this you base on your opinion, hehe, priceless really.
That sound so convincing.

Sounds like you are the one failed math and are so scared of it now that you simply cannot face up to the arguments and retort to using your personal opinion and "proof".
LOL

Nobody's saying GK aren't overpriced, but your "conclusion" that they should only cost 15 points is downright stupid, and does indeed show that you have no working knowledge of game balance, statistics, or functional logic.

I compared troop choice only, that is with no whole picture deal, that is up for GW to decide and I never made any claims otherwise.
Are you slow for real or need I retype it for you?

Besides, thanks for letting your expertise on the game guide me to what is right. I´m sure GW would listen to your personal opinion based on the genious logic.

Well, I agree that they definitely should cost more than tac marines (I don't care how much "data" supports his conclusion,

Finally someone who knows how to argument and can be taken seriosly.
Yes I fully agree, they should cost more then tac marines but as I said the cost difference comes directly from wargear options in assault and heavy weapons and transports.
If GW simply gives them more options either for transports, getting into faster melee or having a more varied wargear selection then this alone might very well make them worth 20-25p each as they are.

The biggest problem (not that wargear takes away S6 attacks although that is important too) is that they dont have cheap transport cover and that a 6´guardsman can down a 25p GK simply by upgrading his dirt cheap squad with an additional weapon.

You can dance SB range all day long but you will still be outshot by most units before you reach melee and your transports are 250p points and cant be babysitting a squad each since the game is much about being spread out to hunt objectives.

Okay. 10-man tac squad with missile launcher and plasmagun = 180 points. 12-man GK squad with no heavy weapons at your proposed cost of 15 per.

Try 10 marines with plasmacannon vs 6 GKs.

For example: what if there's a piece of area terrain between the two squads (something that will happen in nearly every game), nearly negating the benefit of the plasma cannon he used to show how tacmarines are supposedly so much better while completely not being a detriment to the storm bolters?

Terrain goes both ways stupido.

Terrain goes both ways stupido.

No, it really doesn't. Not all cover situations are created equally. The GKs get saves they otherwise wouldn't from plasma, while the tacmarines gain nothing from being shot at by AP5. Your assertion otherwise just shows how flagrantly misplaced your belief in your analytical skills is.

God, you're backpedaling so hard I can barely see you anymore. I can't even bring myself to try to respond to most of this nonsense. Please leave the probabilistic analyses to people who know what they're talking about.

Okay. 10-man tac squad with missile launcher and plasmagun = 180 points. 12-man GK squad with no heavy weapons at your proposed cost of 15 per.

Marines go first. 8 bolters = 0.87 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.97 wounds, so two dead.
Grey Knights go. 10 stormbolters = 2.18 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 5.82 bolters = 0.63 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.73 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 8.27 stormbolters = 1.8 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 4 bolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.54 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 6.73 stormbolters = 1.5 unsaved wounds. At this point, either the plasma or the missile launcher would have to take a save, but let's assume they pass and only bolters die.
Marines go. 2.5 bolters = 0.27 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.37 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 5.36 stormbolters = 1.17 unsaved wounds. Again, assuming the special/heavy weapons pass their checks.
Marines go. 1.33 bolters = 0.14 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.24 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 4.12 stormbolters = 0.9 unsaved wounds. At this point, both guys are taking checks, but we're still assuming only the bolters die.
Marines go. 0.43 bolters = 0.05 unsaved wounds. PG&ML = 1.10 unsaved wounds. Total 1.15 wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2.97 stormbolters = 0.64 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.8 of PG&ML = 0.88 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go. 2 stormbolters = 0.44 unsaved wounds.
Marines go. 0.36 of PG&ML = 0.4 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights go 1.6 stormbolters = 0.35 unsaved wounds.
Grey Knights win with at least one guy standing.

So the Marines BARELY(as in, a fraction of one marine left standing) win if you let them go first
EDIT: Strike that, I realized I underestimated the stormbolter performance one round, so they actually STILL WIN even if you let the marines go first, ignore shrouding completely, ignore the impact of all but omnipresent cover on the damage output of the special/heavy weapon, always assume the special/heavy weapon make their saves, and allow fractions of models to continue firing (which also benefits the special/heavy more). If we did the same thing with any of the above factors counted in, the Grey Knights would win hands down. If we brought things to melee, the Grey Knights would win hands down. They are overpriced, but your "highly researched conclusion" as to their value is complete and utter nonsense.

So yes, your fail DOES indeed pierce the internet.

Really?


Lets see then...

10 tac with pc 175p
11 GKs (justicar costing an additional 15p) 180p

GKs go first for the fun of it, range is 24´ as its easy to get but should in fact be even more since the defending player (who wants to shoot) can easily back more.

Turn 1:

GKs shoot and go 6´ forward.
2.4 marines are dead.

6.6 marines shoot back.
1 PC shoots back.

PC scaters 66% of the times 3 inches on average and of these about 1/5 scatter in a bad direction. I assume 2,5 GKs are covered by each shot.

GKs loose 2.87 members.



Turn 2:
7.6 marines vs 8.13 GK.

GK now at 12 range.

1.77 marines down.

4.83 marines shoot back
1 PC shots back.

GKs loose 3.2 members.


Turn 3:

5.83 marines left vs 4.93 GK.

GK shoot and assault.
Marines loose 1.1 in shooting,

4.73 marines vs 4.93 GKs in melee.
Result is 0.47 GKs dead vs 3.19

Turn 4:
2.64 marines vs 4.46 GKs in melee.

4.16 GKs left vs all marines dead.

Pretty close and GKS got first turn.



Lets give SM first turn.

10 SM vs 11 GK, same range.

9 SM shoot, 1 PC shoots = 3.15 GK dead.

GK shoot back = 1.7 marine dead.



Turn 2:
Range 18´

8.3 SM vs 7.85 GK.

SM shoots and kills 3.05 GK.
GK now at 12´range kill 1 marine.

Turn 3:

7.3 SM vs GK 4.8 GK.

SM shoot and down 3.1 GK (assuming PC only hit 2 due to smaller squad, further advantage to GK)
GK down 0.37 marines.

6.93 marines vs 1.7 GK in melee.

SM kill 0.65 GK.
GK kill 2 marines.


Turn 4:

4.93 marines vs 1.05 GK.
SM kill 0.5 GK.
GK kill 1.72 SM.


Turn 5:

3.2 SM vs 0.55 GK in melee.

SM kill 0.35 GK.
GK kill 1.72 SM.

Turn 6:

1.5 SM vs 0.2 GK.


Its pretty fking close, dead on in other words in both scenarios where GK cost 15 p each.
Thus in 1 vs 1 scenarios the 15p GKs are perfectly matched to the 16p tac squad.


Making a third scenario where SM can buy a rhino will further show this.

You fail to prove me wrong, all praise the internet but you get a cookie for trying if it helps!

No, it really doesn't. Not all cover situations are created equally. The GKs get saves they otherwise wouldn't from plasma, while the tacmarines gain nothing from being shot at by AP5. Your assertion otherwise just shows how flagrantly misplaced your belief in your analytical skills is.

Look above.

Also try to give the tac a rhino, something GKs cant have and see where your plasma save will get you in your genius belief of your gaming expertise.
Damn but this thread made my day
Keep it up!

So... ah... Any News? Or Rumors?

Phil

boreas wrote:So... ah... Any News? Or Rumors?

Phil

Nope, just abject stupidity and intellectual dishonesty.

Didn't this get moved from N+R anyway?

I was told there would be no math.

Not to mention that this is severly off-topic.

So you based the point reduction on the fact that they don't have access to the same special weapons or cheap transport? I mean, I can see where you're coming from, but that's not how it works. You don't base the cost of a unit on the meta game, but on it's stats and abilities. It would make more sense (and be less of a headache) if GKs are just given access to rhinos and plasma guns and what have you (although I think you did point that out). They probably will be reduced in points, but I doubt it would be less than 19 pts. Justicar, on the other hand, definitely need a discount. I mean, 25 more points for an extra attack and a power weapon? ya, no.

Pyriel- wrote:

PC scaters 66% of the times 3 inches on average and of these about 1/5 scatter in a bad direction. I assume 2,5 GKs are covered by each shot.

Really? 2 1/2 hit GK each shot? You are grossely overestimating what a PC can do.

First off, 1/6 of the shot will get hot.
Second, even with a hit, properly spaced it will only cover 1 on a hit.

I would go with 1/2 scatter the wrong way, and 1/2 of those scatter to far.

So 1/3 hit. 2/3 miss. 3/4 of those misses still hit. 1/3 + 3/4 * 2/3 + 1/3 = 5/6

Only get to shoot 5/6 times, so 5/6 * 5/6 = 25/36

Let's assume sloppy placement and you get 3 models on average. 3 * 25/36 = 2.08

That comes out 0.4 less dead per volley, or 2.4 less kills per 6 turns.


So even with space marines shooting first, and not correcting for less GK's dying each round, that would be 2.6 GK's left vs 1.5 marines.

another thread heading to be closed:( way off subject again:(

lets ge back on track

Which would you prefer? Seperate GK, WH, and Inquisiton codices? How they already are? Or The ultimate Inquisition codex of all three orders and Inquisition.

My vote is on the triple with Inquisition. It gives you maximum choice, with minimum spent on books.

Thoughts . . .

Oshova

I'd prefer if GW consolidated Daemonhunters and Witchhunters into one codex, since that's one less codex they'd need to update. GW themselves have stated that they got a little "Inquisition happy" around 3rd ed. Besides, the few boxes of Sisters and GK getting pulled from the website hints toward this.

A unified Inquisition would be awesome. it doesn't force the players to choose, and allows for epic joint operations. I also really hope that the Ordo Xeno/Deathwatch also get a section.

I might explode if they did Ordos Xenos. So this would be good and bad . . . suppose it depends on how I explode. I mean I could face losing a few toes to get the most awesome and useful Ordos of the 3 IMO.

Oshova

The only problem is, how would they do Deathwatch/Ordo Xeno? The only fluff about them that I have read about them was in the Dark Heresy rulebook.

Well if anyone can make the fluff on Deathwatch it's GW . . . And basically they covered a little bit here, and a little bit there. They're in the 2nd Ultramarine book for example, and mentioned in passing in the new Crimson Fist book Rynn's World.

Also they did a set of rules for using them as an addition to your existing Space Marines of whatever chapter in White Dwarf's Chapter Approved.

So there's somewhere to start with those, but yeah there would be quite a lot of work involved in it. But that's what GW is there for. To create interesting fluff, models, and armies for hobbyists to enjoy . . . or so they say.

Oshova

I think the Sternguard has in many ways replaced the Death watch. Those funky bolter rounds are the Deathwatch's gag. The only thing that's missing is a heavy bolter that can move and fire.

rogueeyes wrote:
From what we've seen in the coming blood angels codex we can make an educated guess that the Storm Raven will be included in a future Grey knight codex. From the different fluff I've read I can also see drops pods as well as the most other typical SM vehicles. Grey Knight's are basically a first response chapter to demonic invasions. Often times they use T-Hawks and drops pods together in order to get to where they need to be. If anything I would think Grey Knights should have Drop pods rather than many other marine chapters.

Fluff wise though, Grey Knights are known for teleporting into battle. They don't use drop pods because they've mastered teleporation better than anyone in the Imperium. It would be nice if this were reflected in-game.

New army-wide rules, Deep Strike and Heroic Intervention!

DEATH89 wrote:so i think we'll see grey knights becoming cheaper with the new codex because GW wants to sell more PAGKs!

Fixed!

Just a quick post given the current SM Codex it is not unreasonable to just give GK two attacks base and do away w/ True Grit altogether.

My money they get some sort of Combi weapons (maybe three per w/ more in Fast and Heavy) and an Invulnerable save. Purgation Squads remain and maybe can even take an Inquistor instead of a Justicar.

Uriels_Flame wrote:

DEATH89 wrote:so i think we'll see grey knights becoming cheaper with the new codex because GW wants to sell more PAGKs!

Fixed!

This is true of almost any codex though... SOMETHING always gets cheaper, or at least buffed to the point to where you'd buy some if you didn't already have any...

And an Ordo Xenos codex would be downright amazing, though I dunno how they'd be reflected ruleswise compared to other Marine codices. In the fluff, do they bicker about being in squads with other chapters? For example, how does a DA and an SW get along in the same squad? Are they governed by Inquisitors or is it closer to a Codex Astartes organization?

I could basically see them as more expensive Marines with better gear. Nothing weird to explain it: no faith lpowers like SoB, no hyper-specialization psykraft like GKs, but heavily armed by xeno-derived tech and spurred on by a desire to outprove each other in combat. The most "human" of the Chambers Militant, as it were.