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Its a shame , that you relate an attack as a physical element.

Oddly enough so does international law.

What about attack on human rights and TW economy?
Or are death tolls the only thing that you can keep track of in your book?

The taiwanese economy is suffering from chinese manufacturing to be certain. Though in fairness SO IS EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET. Maybe the taiwanese "Miracle" should have diversified before 2001 when it all started to fall apart. Japan and germany held on because they produced quality products and innovated, why did taiwan expect to survive by making crap on the cheap when indonesia, china, and africa could logically do it better and soon would. China isn't solely to blame here. As for human rights, how is china attacking taiwans human rights?

I would still like to see if you can be naive enough to say if china shoots missle around USA it'll be considered posturing , and not elevate to a nuclear response from USA
but the difference you say? well TW isnt USA

Well since they have nuclear missiles capable of hitting us already a symbolic test isn't really meaningful. Though you're quite right, people would flip their gak if china did that. You know what the difference is? We could actually fight china in a war, meaning our response to such an act would be far different from taiwans. You know what japan did when north korea test fired missiles in their direction? They didn't call it an attack, but they understood the underlying implications of the act.

Please. Try actually understanding the meanings behind acts without inaccurately labeling them. A missile test towards america from china would not elevate to a nuclear response, that would be utterly idiotic. It would however be internationally condemned and would set the U.S. and Europe on a war footing.

Finish quoting the rest shuma ,you evil sith

LunaHound wrote:Finish quoting the rest shuma ,you evil sith

I'm not sure what else you want me to quote

This is why the world can never have peace , because of people like you.
Sitting on the chair saying nothing has happened because China hasnt hit any solid target yet.
While you ignore the population freaked out both mentally and our economy just drop and drop by each "test" missile fired.

Actually if everyone were like me all wars would have ended. It's precisely because people aren't like me that moral absolutists and patriots throw the world into war time and time again to avenge sleights however artificial and meaningless. Also if you think the missile tests have anything to do with taiwans economic issues than you don't really understand taiwans economic issues.

You tell me i can understand the ideas? well its my turn to tell you.
There is more than one way to kill a Nation , China is doing a great job killing Taiwan atm.
Of course it doesnt count in your book because its not an actual declared war.

No, it doesn't count because you haven't really said much about it and the actual reality of the matter is that taiwan is killing taiwan economically. China is just mopping up by absorbing taiwanese manufacturing firms. So is indonesia, but no one likes to blame them. It's actually kind of funny, people in america used to blame taiwan for killing the american manufacturing economy. It's a scapegoat.

Wait , talking about 8 year olds , hasnt there been something similar in Star Wars Phantom Menace?
Like... the Driods have a giant blockade around naboo?

A blockade that was run by one small ship. Then when it's shields finally went down it was never actually shot at. Kind of a crappy blockade, but then those were god awful movies.

The whole thing was showing you it wasnt just 15 years ago.

Yes, and I've been arguing that they haven't been shooting missiles at taiwan at all. What you said implied that they were actually firing missiles at taiwan. What you proved is that they were firing missiles into the ocean between themselves and taiwan in an aggressive show of force, something that characterized their regime for decades.

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Finish quoting the rest shuma ,you evil sith

I'm not sure what else you want me to quote

How about the part that i highlighted in red

ShumaGorath wrote:So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.

LunaHound wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Finish quoting the rest shuma ,you evil sith

I'm not sure what else you want me to quote

How about the part that i highlighted in red

ShumaGorath wrote:So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.

Magical. The first link you provided stated that they did exactly that.

As presidential elections neared in 1996, tensions in the Taiwan Straits reached a new level when China test fired missiles in March. Many in Taiwan said the mainland was trying to influence voting in the election by the show of force.

Maybe you should provide better links in the future when you chose to have every link you base your shifting and nebulous argument on after it be in a foreign language to the one this forum is based on!

ShumaGorath wrote:Magical. The first link you provided stated that they did exactly that. Maybe you should provide better links in the future!

Which link? and i think you missed the point.
The point is:

They * Didnt * Stop
What are you trying to say? Yes the incident occured in 1996 , as the link says , your point is?
Your point was they stopped after.

But no , they didnt. Read the whole thing

LunaHound wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Magical. The first link you provided stated that they did exactly that. Maybe you should provide better links in the future!

Which link? and i think you missed the point.
The point is:

They * Didnt * Stop

Yes, and my point is.

They * Never * started.

I was saying you were wrong about everything because of your lack of understanding about the situation and what constitutes actually performing an act.

Luna: This pen is blue
Shuma: Thats an apple
Luna: No this pen is BLUE

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Magical. The first link you provided stated that they did exactly that. Maybe you should provide better links in the future!

Which link? and i think you missed the point.
The point is:

They * Didnt * Stop

Yes, and my point is.

They * Never * started.

I was saying you were wrong about everything because of your lack of understanding about the situation and what constitutes actually performing an act.

Luna: This pen is blue
Shuma: Thats an apple
Luna: No this pen is BLUE

Lack of understanding about the situation , oh yes , just like you how you insist the "test" are not hurting TW

Me: They have been shooting missile at TW for years
Shuma: No they havnt
Me: Links missile tests
Shuma: it doesnt count because its not war
Me: They wont even need to announce a war , not when they can just kill Tw from within , their rights and economy
Shuma: Blue pen and APPLES

Lack of understanding about the situation , oh yes , just like you how you insist the "test" are not hurting TW

Well they aren't. Taiwan is an island. They certainly didn't hurt that. The taiwanese people don't live in the ocean so they weren't hit by it. The taiwanese economy isn't a physical object so the missiles probably didn't hit it. The taiwanese collective zeitgeist keeps buying weapons from the U.S. so it's far from an innocent bystandard shot by the evil seamissile of grandstanding that china shot so many of. You want to talk about actual violence or meaningful acts go to africa, the mideast, the koreas, or hell go to tibet. Places where the sounds of strife aren't just things that fall in the ocean and go *sploosh*.

Me: They have been shooting missile at TW for years
Shuma: Taiwan isn't at the bottom of the sea
Me: Links missile tests
Shuma: it doesnt count because taiwan isnt at the bottom of the sea
Me: They wont even need to announce a war , not when they can just kill Tw from within , their rights and economy
Shuma: Is taiwan atlantis?

Fixed!

ShumaGorath wrote:

A Plate of Winsteak, Covered in Wingravy, with a side of Winfries

The problem with that scenario, is that 2 times in modern history has a "Joke Military" defeated "The most powerful XXX on the planet"

1: The Revolutionary War
2: The FIRST Korean War

and Btw, China is on N. Korea's side

Just to cover both at once. China is not on north koreas side. China has been repeatedly condemning them about their nuclear programme, and the PRC absolutely hates north korea. What they don't want is north korea to collapse and have several million refugees spill over their border in the event of a total korean collapse or all out war. That would be very difficult for china to handle. As for the revolutionary and Korean wars, firstly we had allies in the revolutionary war and they had to fight it over a very large ocean before the invention of the motor. Secondly who won the first korean war exactly?

You should probably try and pay attention to reality before throwing your accolades around.

Firstly, I would say a million refugees is reason enough to back them. That and they may say "oh, we hate them" but they may give them weapons. Look at the country of which you loathe so much: America. So many times in our history have we said "We wont do anything." but every single time we have given people weapons and training. What makes china so different?

Secondly, our soldiers were slaughtered, the war ended where it begun, and the Koreans, with their pitch forks and Joke of an Army, were laughing as they just beat the worlds largest super power. I would say that was a lose for us.

you should probably try not trying to lord yourself over us like you are. I have said I did not know some things, and that I would look them up. You, however, have said no such thing and act like your word is law.

Luna, you go.... girl? (from your avatar, that is what i would assume, though we all know what they say about assuming)

Thats just the worst imaginable reply / edit i have ever seen...
TW straight is an area , a part of TW .

What made you think they are aiming down there?

Fujian province in China is to the west of the strait, while important islands like Jinmen, Xiamen, Hainan Island, and the Matsu Islands are nearby. To the east are the west coast of Taiwan and Penghu. The island fishermen use the strait as a fishing resource. The Minjiang and Jiulong Rivers empty into the strait. The Taiwan Strait or Formosa Strait is a 180-km-wide (111.85-mile-wide) strait between China and Taiwan. The strait is part of the South China Sea and connects to East China Sea to the northeast. The narrowest part is 131 km (81.4 mi.) wide.

So yes , have China bomb the fishing areas where Taiwan fishes , and claim it didnt hit anything because Taiwan itself isnt in the water.

W.T.F ?

irstly, I would say a million refugees is reason enough to back them. That and they may say "oh, we hate them" but they may give them weapons. Look at the country of which you loathe so much: America. So many times in our history have we said "We wont do anything." but every single time we have given people weapons and training. What makes china so different?

It's a good reason to back them economically and provide for minor safeties in the security council, but if it came to war they would have the refugee scenario regardless and they don't want a war with the U.S. any more than the U.S. wants a war with china. Thus they give the north occasional lipservice about unity, condemn them for nukes and posturing, and then secretly write up plans for invasion and annexation in the event of the norths collapse or war.

Secondly, our soldiers were slaughtered, the war ended where it begun, and the Koreans, with their pitch forks and Joke of an Army, were laughing as they just beat the worlds largest super power. I would say that was a lose for us.

The United Nations, particularily the United States, came to the aid of the South Koreans in repelling the invasion. After early defeats at the hands of the North Korean military, a rapid UN counter-offensive repelled the North Koreans past the 38th Parallel and almost to the Yalu River, and the People's Republic of China (PRC) came to the aid of Communist North.[23] With Communist China's entry into the conflict, the fighting took on a more dangerous tone. The Soviet Union materially aided North Korea and China, and the threat of a possibly nuclear world war eventually ceased with an armistice that restored the border between the Koreas at the 38th Parallel and created the Korean Demilitarized Zone, a 2.5-mile (4.0 km) wide buffer zone between the two Koreas. North Korea unilaterally withdrew from the armistice on May 27, 2009, thus returning to a de jure state of war.

I think you may need to take history again.

you should probably try not trying to lord yourself over us like you are. I have said I did not know some things, and that I would look them up. You, however, have said no such thing and act like your word is law.

Thats because my word is law.

Luna, you go.... girl? (from your avatar, that is what i would assume, though we all know what they say about assuming)

Luna is the cutest little taiwanese girl you ever done see.

And the Luna, Shuma hour continues.... If Luna wasn't under age I'd say you two need to get married with the amount of fighting you're already doing.

If missile tests = act of war, Japan would have bombed North Korea into the stone age years ago since they even fired a missile OVER honshu. Sorry Luna, but missiles fired into the straight between mainland and Taiwan aren't even in the same league of wrongness compared to that.

Why North Korea and South Korea will probably never have open hostilities again, by yours truly.
1. The concept of Han. Korean people believe that through their shared tribulations (e.g., being invaded by everybody and their dog) that they are all family, even their misguided cousins to the North/South.

2. Big brothers USA and China will not let the bickering escalate into full blown conflict because it would be too expensive for both and various treaties/pacts signed to their respective step-children (the Koreas) would force their hand. The US maintains a physical presence in S. Korea for a reason; not that so few troops would make a difference. They're there to die in the case of a North Korean invasion (that's why the biggest bases are near Seoul which would be reduced to rubble within minutes of all out conflict). Their tragic deaths would result in the US being completely drawn into the conflict with a full brigade of marines landing in Incheon or Suncheon within hours (from bases in Japan). China would move to counter and protect the Norks and...BOOM world war III.

What would happen in the first few hours to days of a conflict:
1. Seoul vaporized by artillery and those artillery emplacements in turn vaporized by artillery on Cheju-do.
2. Advance military units stationed just north of the DMZ assault followed soon after by leading militia and special forces.
3. Nork sleeper cells all over south korea activate and add more civilian collateral damage.
4. South Korean navy enters Nork water and has their way with the Nork navy. Nork airforce decimated by superior S.Korean and American combined airpower.
5. Some hour or two hours later, stealth bombers arrive from Guam and commence the carpet bombing of Pyongyang (yeah they have AA but not anything better than the Iraqis had and you saw what good that did them).
6. Within the next couple of days Washington and Beijing scramble for diplomacy while Chine moves a few million troops across the Nork border.
7. Nork assault stalls around the southern edge of kyoungido before being reinforced by fresh troops from China.
8. Some few days to hours later, the nukes start falling.

shuma is already married to his bbff

LunaHound wrote:shuma is already married to his bbff

http://www.acronymfinder.com/BBFF.html ???

LunaHound wrote:Thats just the worst imaginable reply / edit i have ever seen...
TW straight is an area , a part of TW .

What made you think they are aiming down there?

This is the area in question:


It's shared territory between mainland China and Taiwan, under international law.

To quote international law...

Territorial waters, or a territorial sea, as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, is a belt of coastal waters extending at most twelve nautical miles from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state. The territorial sea is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, although foreign ships (both military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it; this sovereignty also extends to the airspace over and seabed below.

The term "territorial waters" is also sometimes used informally to describe any area of water over which a state has jurisdiction, including internal waters, the contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and potentially the continental shelf.

So. Find exact longitudes/latitudes for the missile impacts--and if any were "within 12 nautical miles from the baseline of Taiwan", you'd be right.
As it stands, it's nearly 100 miles distant at the closest point.
Which means there's ALOT of leeway for China to be test-firing missiles into the Strait.
Now, if you were saying that they time their missile "tests" with Taiwan's economic stresses or internal politics?
You'd be onto something, because that's something the Chinese aren't above doing.

It's a good reason to back them economically and provide for minor safeties in the security council, but if it came to war they would have the refugee scenario regardless and they don't want a war with the U.S. any more than the U.S. wants a war with china. Thus they give the north occasional lipservice about units, condemn them for nukes and posturing, and then secretly write up plans for invasion and annexation in the event of the norths collapse or war.

yes, but China also kinda hates the U.S. so what would be the smartest thing to do? oh, wait for two people you hate to start killing eachother. Then, you can annex one, and since you control a majority of the stock in the other, you just took over two countries. See how that works.

The United Nations, particularily the United States, came to the aid of the South Koreans in repelling the invasion. After early defeats at the hands of the North Korean military, a rapid UN counter-offensive repelled the North Koreans past the 38th Parallel and almost to the Yalu River, and the People's Republic of China (PRC) came to the aid of Communist North.[23] With Communist China's entry into the conflict, the fighting took on a more dangerous tone. The Soviet Union materially aided North Korea and China, and the threat of a possibly nuclear world war eventually ceased with an armistice that restored the border between the Koreas at the 38th Parallel and created the Korean Demilitarized Zone, a 2.5-mile (4.0 km) wide buffer zone between the two Koreas. North Korea unilaterally withdrew from the armistice on May 27, 2009, thus returning to a de jure state of war.

Where did you pull that from, exactly? For all I know, thats Wikipedia. But yes, that is an overview, however, it says nothing about the fact that the Korean War was bloody, or the fact that alot of people died during it. You can take a very important hill, but if you lost thousands of men doing it, was it really worth it? You play wargames.... how can you not understand that victories are not solely measured on objectives?

seems like you need to read "Strategy and Tactics for dummies"

Thats because my word is law.

which leads me to beleive your just trolling, and as such, not worth my time after this. Good day sir.

Why exactly do the Chinese hate Americans, again?

avantgarde wrote:Why exactly do the Chinese hate Americans, again?

Because they are Capitalist Pigs who employ most of China and give them lots of money!

Kanluwen wrote:
Now, if you were saying that they time their missile "tests" with Taiwan's economic stresses or internal politics?
You'd be onto something, because that's something the Chinese aren't above doing.

Its really basic , just think about these points:

Is China generally communist? Yes , they are changing , but they still are , atleast mentally by the main populace.
Is China's officials corrupted? Yes as bad as it can get.

So ask Taiwanese the following questions:
What will happen to your companies and your investments within Taiwan when China takes over?
Do you have faith the corrupted governments wont destroy what you have , to be replaced by Chinese workers/ companies?

Now you know why Taiwan is dying. They are working for a future that will be all for nothing.

avantgarde wrote:Why exactly do the Chinese hate Americans, again?

China doesnt hate USA , more specifically , they hate anyone not Mainland chinese. They are opportunists , not because they chose to be.
Because the harsh conditions they are raised to be. Which is why Taiwanese are freaked out , doesnt help to what Chinese immigrants say about Canada
The mainland chinese have a saying in Canada 加拿大 , they call it 大家拿

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Now, if you were saying that they time their missile "tests" with Taiwan's economic stresses or internal politics?
You'd be onto something, because that's something the Chinese aren't above doing.

It's really basic , just think about these points:

Is China generally Communist? Yes , they are changing but they still are, at least in the general population's mentality.
Are China's officials corrupted? Yes, they are as bad as it can get.

So ask Taiwanese the following questions:
What will happen to your companies and your investments within Taiwan when China takes over?
Do you have faith that the corrupted governments won't destroy what you have , to be replaced by Chinese workers/ companies?

Now you know why Taiwan is dying. They are working for a future that will be all for nothing.

That has nothing, whatsoever, to do with missile tests first of all.

Second of all, why would China want to take over Taiwan just to run it into the ground?
That would be like if Russia took over Japan and shut down all trade in/out.
All you would be doing is increasing the strain on your own economy and hurting yourself.

Kanluwen wrote:
That has nothing, whatsoever, to do with missile tests first of all.

Second of all, why would China want to take over Taiwan just to run it into the ground?
That would be like if Russia took over Japan and shut down all trade in/out.
All you would be doing is increasing the strain on your own economy and hurting yourself.

Of course it has nothing to do with anything... All it does is give TW a harsh remainder that China can take over TW anytime they feel like.
Take over our future , change what we have built ,

Nope , nothing to do with it at all!

When China take over Taiwan , it'll be just another extension of China , and everything it represents.
And Taiwanese DESPISE that. Because we cant stand how China treat human rights.

And the part high light in red , the "your" part really doesnt work. While you guys see China / Taiwan as just same old "chinese"
but to us , we are like Fire and Water. When China takes over , it wouldnt be OUR economy and OURSELVES anymore , it'll be China's
see the problem?

Just for reference , all the discussion on Taiwan going off topic away from Korea isnt by my choice .
As you guys can see , im mostly just replying. As i received Z*E*R*O PM about discussing it somewhere else ,
i guess there is no other choice :3

The real issue i believe is , you guys that are not caught up in the conflict really really have no idea how different Taiwan from China is.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Luna: This pen is blue
Shuma: Thats an apple
Luna: No this pen is BLUE

LunaHound wrote:
Me: They have been shooting missile at TW for years
Shuma: No they havnt
Me: Links missile tests
Shuma: it doesnt count because its not war
Me: They wont even need to announce a war , not when they can just kill Tw from within , their rights and economy
Shuma: Blue pen and APPLES

I want to sig this. I really do.

I dont mind ^^;

That all said, I really couldn't give two darn nickels about what happens between China and Tawain, that's really ancient history that should have ended in the 1950's one way or another. The time when either of the two countries could claim soveriegnty over the other has long since passed. I'm pretty sure the whole word views the two as seperate countries now, not rebellious states.

I honestly don't think that any of this is worth getting into a fight over, I'm tired of this discussion. I have better things to do than watch two Asian countries (SK/NK, PRC/Taiwan or whatever) slog it out.

@Kanluwen: I wasn't talking about the Korean War. When the PRC started shelling a Taiwnese owned island (a patch of dirt in every sense of the word) and it appeared that they were going to sieze some of the minor islands, not Taiwan itself, Eisenhower threatened/implied that he was willing to use Nuclear Weapons to halt this. Even other members of NATO were outraged, but the threat was enough for the Soviet Union to plead for the PRC to stop.

Feh, sorry. Just tired over all this arguing.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Feh, sorry. Just tired over all this arguing.

Sorry that i replied to them and prolonged this none korean discussion.
I really did offer them to discuss it somewhere else but they just ignored me.

I dont know much about Korea , other than the K-Drama i watch on tv , so i'll step out of this thread now :3

But then looking back , its hard for me to be sorry especially some of the posts in this thread only exists to be addressed to me in the first place
as usual. Almost like... arguing for the sake of arguing against lunahound , not so much a discussion?

No it's not that. The Chinese/Tawian thing is still connected to this thread. I just don't see the point. There's nothing new going on here, nothing shiny. Unless aliens or a certain JAWsKat is responsible for the missing sailors then there's really nothing worthwhile in this thread. *frustrated face*

Oops xD

Eh, wha-?

Be douchy a-holes who think being French is the pinnacle of human achievement, even though real French people think they're idiots? fine

Laying the anti-mainlander sentiment on a bit thick there, Luna. I know most of them are loud and obnoxious, really do they need to yell all the time? I mean they don't shut up. What was I talking about?