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That same information is published elsewhere(such as the BBC), quite often.

Just with y'know...actual facts, rather than Taiwan's take on the situation. Taiwan and China's media outlets both have a pretty hefty slant on events that make Fox News look like a credible source.

And by the by:
If you're going to delve into the OT Politics Realm...using foreign language citations and requiring someone to "babelfish it" is slightly ridiculous. Babelfish is at best, like someone with a slight stutter speaking to you.
At worst it's like the stereotypical image of the mentally disabled trying to explain physics to Einstein.

@Corvus , at modern times like now , wars and fights you hear about on the news only contribute to half of the tension and problems.

Its the other half that the news dont hear about that is really eating away the people.

Kanluwen wrote:That same information is published elsewhere(such as the BBC), quite often.

Just with y'know...actual facts, rather than Taiwan's take on the situation. Taiwan and China's media outlets both have a pretty hefty slant on events that make Fox News look like a credible source.

And by the by:
If you're going to delve into the OT Politics Realm...using foreign language citations and requiring someone to "babelfish it" is slightly ridiculous. Babelfish is at best, like someone with a slight stutter speaking to you.
At worst it's like the stereotypical image of the mentally disabled trying to explain physics to Einstein.

No of course not kan , but you can atleast read enough about it to know that im not just making things up , even if you understand 50% of the weird translation ,
you'll atleast be able to know , ok this and that happend , and why.

But you know kan , we both know this. But you arnt here for that either :')

And no , im not here for OF politics. Just someone that came from the epicenter of the problem , telling you things did happen.
To a few of you that claim it didnt happen.

Its nothing complicated really.

Why isnt it complicated? well just like a slow (me) trying to explain physics to einstein (you and shuma) of course i cannot
write down the formula and such. But just as effectively i can throw the stupid apple at your head and show you , thats

Original size of velocity: vo

Original angle: theta

It's not understanding that's the hard part.

It's the translations themselves. They're being done by a machine, which doesn't differentiate contexts. It leads to ridiculous statements like "The Dolphinrockets is on high red." in the case of one translation I did ages ago on a German news report from 1946.
Spelling was correct, everything was a-okay. It's just the translation software is flawed at its core, because again--it's a machine.

Might as well grab your closest Taiwanese friend and have them help translate for you. Better yet, a professor or person who lived in the region gives you a better perspective than a layman who attempts to understand it from a media standpoint on the intrawebs.

Kanluwen wrote:It's not understanding that's the hard part.

It's the translations themselves. They're being done by a machine, which doesn't differentiate contexts. It leads to ridiculous statements like "The Dolphinrockets is on high red." in the case of one translation I did ages ago on a German news report from 1946.
Spelling was correct, everything was a-okay. It's just the translation software is flawed at its core, because again--it's a machine.

I can quickly translate some over all incidents to why the problem between the 2 sides still exists.

But the question is , will you 2 be willing to accept im telling the truth.

WarOne wrote:Might as well grab your closest Taiwanese friend and have them help translate for you. Better yet, a professor or person who lived in the region gives you a better perspective than a layman who attempts to understand it from a media standpoint on the intrawebs.

I dont think that will accomplish anything. Because from the look of it , no one is interested in the truth.

Only , the argument. Is what some live for.
Not my cup of tea , i told the truth , i provide a link with MORE than adequate amount of info , it links to every incident that happend.

Only problem , not in english. Oh well , believe in what you guys want , im done.

Oh , and im especially done because this is drifting away from the Korean topic.
which thanks to some of you .

LunaHound wrote:@Corvus , at modern times like now , wars and fights you hear about on the news only contribute to half of the tension and problems.

Its the other half that the news dont hear about that is really eating away the people.

Dude, trust me, owing to the line of work I'm in, I know all too well the crap that goes unreported.

Can't speak for Shuma, but I wouldn't.

It's not a personal thing--I just don't know your level of fluency with the language, I don't know your personal opinions on the topic, etc etc.

I'd expect the same of anyone trying to get a "professional look" at any topic like this.

LunaHound wrote:
But the question is , will you 2 be willing to accept im telling the truth.

WarOne wrote:Might as well grab your closest Taiwanese friend and have them help translate for you. Better yet, a professor or person who lived in the region gives you a better perspective than a layman who attempts to understand it from a media standpoint on the intrawebs.

I dont think that will accomplish anything. Because from the look of it , no one is interested in the truth.

Only , the argument. Is what some live for.
Not my cup of tea , i told the truth , i provide a link with MORE than adequate amount of info , it links to every incident that happend.

Only problem , not in english. Oh well , believe in what you guys want , im done.

By my own rationale, I disqualify myself from that example too. I'm not an expert on Sino-Taiwanese relationship nor do I have a complete understanding of the issues surrounding their uneasy truce. Suffice to say, a reputable source with great in-depth knowledge would be the most reasonable thing to look at (i.e. a scholar writing a peer-reviewed article in Foreign Affairs).

Kanluwen wrote:Can't speak for Shuma, but I wouldn't.

It's not a personal thing--I just don't know your level of fluency with the language, I don't know your personal opinions on the topic, etc etc.

I'd expect the same of anyone trying to get a "professional look" at any topic like this.

Fluency with Mandarin and Taiwanese , i can read newspaper ever since im 6.
But as you said , a professional look at topic like this , is not something i dived into kan.

I merely tell / report the info that you guys didnt think existed. Thats all.

LunaHound wrote:Fluency with Mandarin and Taiwanese , i can read newspaper ever since im 6.
But as you said , a professional look at topic like this , is not something i dived into kan.

I merely tell / report the info that you guys didnt think existed. Thats all.

What is your background in relation to China/Taiwan, Luna? I am intersted in knowing this if it helps me understand your perspective on the issue.

Uh, nobody thinks the info doesn't exist.

Nobody just wants to be bothered to translate multiple pages via Babelfish.

WarOne wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Fluency with Mandarin and Taiwanese , i can read newspaper ever since im 6.
But as you said , a professional look at topic like this , is not something i dived into kan.

I merely tell / report the info that you guys didnt think existed. Thats all.

What is your background in relation to China/Taiwan, Luna? I am intersted in knowing this if it helps me understand your perspective on the issue.

Someone that "fled" taiwan , immigrated to Canada. Supposed to study here and carry out my family's companies if im fit to.

ATM all the chemical factories are hit majorly , the only thing still going strong are exports and imports that are rather decent since we are dealing with Japan.

Where do i stand? someone wondering if there is still a future in Taiwan , or rather , would it still be "Taiwan" when i get back.
Or end up as a part of China same way Hong Kong did.

However , im getting constantly yelled at because i seem to have caught the lazy relaxing vibe -_-

@kan , as i said , even though i iddnt chose to ( i only responded ) , never the less it seems its derailing from korean topic.

If you really do have interest in knowing more about taiwan and china relationship , i dont mind getting into details to why the 2 sides messed up so badly.

LunaHound wrote:Nice try trolls , but i already told you bunch of times , use babel fish:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

I use google chrome. It does that automatically and better than babelfish. More to the point though, It's not my burden to cite evidence for your claim. It's your job. Until you can do that, which you can't, you are essentially making baseless claims than demanding others do their research. It's something you do a lot.

Someone that "fled" taiwan , immigrated to Canada. Supposed to study here and carry out my family's companies if im fit to.

How old are you.

Where do i stand? someone wondering if there is still a future in Taiwan , or rather , would it still be "Taiwan" when i get back.
Or end up as a part of China same way Hong Kong did.

Being given back by the british? Taiwans claims on independence are fairly thin in some areas, and economically and ethnically they aren't particularly separate anyway. It's to be expected though, taiwans population is rather small and they are just a few miles away from the most populous country on the planet. It's unlikely taiwan will continue to exist as it does now, being an uppity thorn in chinas side. Their government has been backing reconciliation and economic ties for years and it's the best road for them to go. Realistically if china wanted taiwan china could take taiwan, and taiwan doesn't help its people by attempting to exclude itself from chinese affairs.

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Nice try trolls , but i already told you bunch of times , use babel fish:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

I use google chrome. It does that automatically and better than babelfish. More to the point though, It's not my burden to cite evidence for your claim. It's your job. Until you can do that, which you can't, you are essentially making baseless claims than demanding others do their research. It's something you do a lot.

Thats the problem , its not baseless , but you chose to believe it is.

Hence , im done with you. Since this thread isnt about taiwan anyways.
Thats the problem wiith you shuma , you treat everything like its a debate of some sort ,
where i have to present this and that. And even when i did , its not to your liking.

So again , too bad , for both of us.

Alright. I believe that does qualify LunaHound as someone more closely related to the matter than most of us chiding him/her for not believing the context of what he/she has been posting.

Well, on the issue of Taiwan, are you a person who believes in integration of Taiwan back into the PRC, or one who wishes for the separate existance of Taiwan independent of ties to China? If no either way, are you affirmed in the definiton of China and Taiwan relations know in legalspeak as "special relations between two areas within one state?"

WarOne wrote:Alright. I believe that does qualify LunaHound as someone more closely related to the matter than most of us chiding him/her for not believing the context of what he/she has been posting.

Well, on the issue of Taiwan, are you a person who believes in integration of Taiwan back into the PRC, or one who wishes for the separate existance of Taiwan independent of ties to China? If no either way, are you affirmed in the definiton of China and Taiwan relations know in legalspeak as "special relations between two areas within one state?"

Thats a good question. But its too late for Taiwan. The last president chen that actually cared of taiwan as an independant nation well , im sure you guys saw what happend last year.
Now our current president Ma is nothing but a sell out.

Our economy is long dead . All the smart companies already take their business to india or malay or thailand . When China was first "released" a bunch of major companies invested in china,
look what happend? all stabbed in the back and bankrupt.

The people have no faith anymore , its very smart what china did. Now they no longer have to pressure as via military , just promise us with some new trades and watch us
flock to it blindly. They'll flock to anything now.

LunaHound wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Nice try trolls , but i already told you bunch of times , use babel fish:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

I use google chrome. It does that automatically and better than babelfish. More to the point though, It's not my burden to cite evidence for your claim. It's your job. Until you can do that, which you can't, you are essentially making baseless claims than demanding others do their research. It's something you do a lot.

Thats the problem , its not baseless , but you chose to believe it is.

Hence , im done with you. Since this thread isnt about taiwan anyways.
Thats the problem wiith you shuma , you treat everything like its a debate of some sort ,
where i have to present this and that. And even when i did , its not to your liking.

So again , too bad , for both of us.

I don't think you actually understand the concept of supporting evidence for claims made in debate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

WarOne wrote:Alright. I believe that does qualify LunaHound as someone more closely related to the matter than most of us chiding him/her for not believing the context of what he/she has been posting.

Well, on the issue of Taiwan, are you a person who believes in integration of Taiwan back into the PRC, or one who wishes for the separate existance of Taiwan independent of ties to China? If no either way, are you affirmed in the definiton of China and Taiwan relations know in legalspeak as "special relations between two areas within one state?"

Thats a good question. But its too late for Taiwan. The last president chen that actually cared of taiwan as an independant nation well , im sure you guys saw what happend last year.
Now our current president Ma is nothing but a sell out.

Our economy is long dead . All the smart companies already take their business to india or malay or thailand . When China was first "released" a bunch of major companies invested in china,
look what happend? all stabbed in the back and bankrupt.

The people have no faith anymore , its very smart what china did. Now they no longer have to pressure as via military , just promise us with some new trades and watch us
flock to it blindly. They'll flock to anything now.

Why do you show allegiance to a flag over allegiance to the people that flag represents? When the path of least resistance seems more peaceful, prosperous, and easy why cling? China has 43 times the population of taiwan, thinks it owns it, has a military more than capable of simply walking in and taking it, and a level of economic control in the region sufficient to simply snuff the taiwanese economy out (not that it had many legs in a globalized world at this point anyway). So why bother? Chinese statehood would, at the very least, come with significant development money for taiwan.

Lunahound: Look at the wtf are pokemon buildings made of thread, made a post you might like.

Well, are there still Conservative-like elements in Taiwan that seek to divest itself from China entirely? That would be a bad scenario.

Does Taiwan have any other choices other than to invest itself more heavily with the PRC? I know there can be a turn around if they find the right niche in the world economy to make themselves become wanted again economically. Don't forget the United States still has a relationship with the country (depending on how much you consider the worth of that given the United State's penchant to listen to the PRC more closely).

WarOne wrote:Lunahound: Look at the wtf are pokemon buildings made of thread, made a post you might like.

Well, are there still Conservative-like elements in Taiwan that seek to divest itself from China entirely? That would be a bad scenario.

Does Taiwan have any other choices other than to invest itself more heavily with the PRC? I know there can be a turn around if they find the right niche in the world economy to make themselves become wanted again economically. Don't forget the United States still has a relationship with the country (depending on how much you consider the worth of that given the United State's penchant to listen to the PRC more closely).

We don't have all that special of a relationship. The limits of that relationship are with a 30 year old treaty stating that we would sell them weapons when asked, which we do, but which we probably won't do again after this last sale. Taiwan was an anticommunist domino we prepared in the event of war in asia, but it doesn't really have much relevance to the U.S. any more. It's actually kind of a thorn in our side at this point given that every concession we make to it enrages the chinese.

ShumaGorath wrote:We don't have all that special of a relationship. The limits of that relationship are with a 30 year old treaty stating that we would sell them weapons when asked, which we do, but which we probably won't do again after this last sale. Taiwan was an anticommunist domino we prepared in the event of war in asia, but it doesn't really have much relevance to the U.S. any more. It's actually kind of a thorn in our side at this point given that every concession we make to it enrages the chinese.

I blame college for the deterioration of our relationship with Taiwan. If it wasn't for the fact we saw things in absolute truths back in the Cold War, we wouldn't of opposed Communism as we did. Now with educated people saying it is okay for Communism because that part of the world has a different socio-historical context in which their society and government developed compared to ours, we would still be sending things to other nations in order to fight the Red Menace:



As it is, the weakening of our stance versus Communism arises from the context of our times: China is a global power challenging the old order of the last decade, and America is determined to get its own house in order rather than play the old role of Capitalist bully and protecter of American interests. We have the EU, the UN, and China to help deal with the rest of the world now. That means Taiwan and Israel and Eastern Europe are on the back side of our true interests at the moment.

Geez now that i typed a bunch of things , it died.
Are people more interested in the truth , or the process of debating ...

ShumaGorath wrote:I use google chrome. It does that automatically and better than babelfish. More to the point though, It's not my burden to cite evidence for your claim. It's your job. Until you can do that, which you can't, you are essentially making baseless claims than demanding others do their research. It's something you do a lot.

When someone tell you the truth , you can either chose to believe it or not. Not to mention links were provided , the only problem is you dont want to read it / translate it.
Why you treat this as some sort of court , well its what you do i guess

How old are you.

17

Being given back by the british? Taiwans claims on independence are fairly thin in some areas, and economically and ethnically they aren't particularly separate anyway. It's to be expected though, taiwans population is rather small and they are just a few miles away from the most populous country on the planet. It's unlikely taiwan will continue to exist as it does now, being an uppity thorn in chinas side. Their government has been backing reconciliation and economic ties for years and it's the best road for them to go. Realistically if china wanted taiwan china could take taiwan, and taiwan doesn't help its people by attempting to exclude itself from chinese affairs.

Thats what irks me , now you determine a nation's right to exist based on the number of its population? Thats just stupid. Taiwan's existence isnt a thorn to China ,
infact , why does it hurt china that we refuse to be a part of them? What? ego issues?
Taiwan have been independent and have been thriving just fine without China . Till of course they decided to give us a hard time for not complying.
Yes China can take Taiwan anytime they want , but why do you say it doesnt help Taiwan by excluding themselves from China? I mean sure , in the situation now it doesnt help,
but look who made it that way in the first place , China!

Soladrin wrote:It's not like I think it's a good thing, but there just doesn't seem to be much of a peaceful solution coming out of it.

Politics is complex and almost impossible to predict, and the politics of a place like North Korea are even harder to predict. It doesn't make for exciting movies so we don't often hear of the countries that were lucky enough to go from crappy dictatorships to functional democracies but it does happen. South Korea is actually a pretty good example.

Really, all we can do at this point is contain, hope that violence doesn't break out and hope that in time situations will open up that'll allow peaceful change.

And the nuking is an exaggeration, sorry for that. IMO nukes shouldn't even exist.

My apologies for putting a stain on this thread.

Nah, it's cool.

They have been shooting at each other for the last 60 years. meh. Just keep the soju coming and the world will spin as it always has.

Thats the problem , its not baseless , but you chose to believe it is.

This all came down because you said that china was shooting missiles at taiwan. To support yourself you showed how they tested a few in the straight between the two nations. Considering firing a missile into another country is an aggressive act of war it's a very serious matter. One that would be well documented. And one that has not been documented.

Thats what irks me , now you determine a nation's right to exist based on the number of its population? Thats just stupid. Taiwan's existence isnt a thorn to China ,
infact , why does it hurt china that we refuse to be a part of them? What? ego issues?

What right does any nation have to actually exist? Nations are just governmental boundries. We don't chose what countries we are born into. Taiwan is a thorn in chinas side because Chang decided to flee to there with the remains of his forces and because taiwan is a breakaway province of china (and japan!).

...sigh...

Hmmm, been reading up on the Cold War and the early foundations of Communist China. Basically, Taiwan is that little spot of China that the PRC "missed".

Emperors Faithful wrote:Hmmm, been reading up on the Cold War and the early foundations of Communist China. Basically, Taiwan is that little spot of China that the PRC "missed".

One of my absolute favourite bits of history is Taiwan being considered the government of China by the UN from 1949 until 1971, meaning they had a permanent position on the security council and veto power. They even used their veto once, to block Mongolia's entry into the UN - as they considered Mongolia part of China and therefore part of their own country. Because, of course, Taiwan still thinks of China as part of their rightful lands.

sebster wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Hmmm, been reading up on the Cold War and the early foundations of Communist China. Basically, Taiwan is that little spot of China that the PRC "missed".

One of my absolute favourite bits of history is Taiwan being considered the government of China by the UN from 1949 until 1971, meaning they had a permanent position on the security council and veto power. They even used their veto once, to block Mongolia's entry into the UN - as they considered Mongolia part of China and therefore part of their own country. Because, of course, Taiwan still thinks of China as part of their rightful lands.

I know. And the fact that the US failed to recognise China as a country for the better part of a couple of decades. Do the Taiwanese (or whatever) still think of themselves as the rightful rulers of China?

Also, just really OT, I find it very disturbing that Eisenhower was willing to resort to using Nuclear Weapons over that little shelling incident in the 50s.

It wasn't Eisenhower that advocated nuking China during the Korean Conflict. It was MacArthur, and it led to his removal from command by Truman.

I dated an absolutely smoking girl from Taiwan, and she absolutely hated the Chinese. Used to go on about it all the time, much to my amusement.

Anyway, due to me liking her so much (and not wanting to agree with Shuma) and the Chinese just being.. generally nasty (did you guys hear about the tigers they starved to death btw? Brutal!)

I side with Luna.