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ShumaGorath wrote:

sebster wrote:

WarOne wrote:In Germany's case, the infrastructure and relatively poor economic might of the East was seen as negative by the West Germans. East Germans didn't migrate in hordes to the West (but there was a population shift) because there really wasn't anywhere for East Germans to go. The unified government had to invest more money and resources into developing the East while providing resources to help the people who had real disadvantages versus the West (East Germans were not badly off; they developed on the fringe of the Western world and had access to some goods. The real issue was the integration of a people and a nation that was under the heel of Communist rule and a Socialist economy that deprived them of freedom and goods respectively (There is one story of East Berliners and Germans going to the Western supermarkets and buying citrus fruits in large quantities immediately after the Iron Curtain melted; many of them simply could not obtain the products in their home countries).

That's the thing. In East Germany you had a functional state, living standards and work practices weren't close to Western standards but they weren't that bad... reunification was still incredibly difficult. North Korea is in a far poorer position, South Korea is a less powerful economy than West Germany, and it might come in the wake of a war - meaning there'll be millions of refugees to worry about before they can even start reunification.

You also have generations of institutionalized racism. From childhood north koreans are raised to believe that they are the master race, and that the rest of the world attempts to keep them caged. They cite foreign aid as an example of tribute regularly.

Actually, it's not that hard to see it as such when you think about it.
1) North Korea throws a hissy, firing shells or other small breaches in the Ceasefire, making loud sounds as they do so.
2) Diplomats and Foreign Powers depserately try to cool down the (artificially started) situation.
3) North Korea ceases.
4) Foreign Aid is given as a reward for thier peaceful approach. *rolls eyes*

It's not too hard for North Korean leaders to twist that into a tribute of sorts.

It's not too hard for North Korean leaders to twist that into a tribute of sorts.

Yes it is. They perform a bizarre miracle of propaganda to actually have that work. It's real hard to see yourself as the superior race when you live in bamboo huts, your economies collapsed, and you're starving.

I was talking about the actual aid given itself, not the startling difference in living standards.
I agree that it would be fairly hard to do so if the majority of the populace truly believed that the rest of the world was that much better off.

I hope not, my bro is stationed over there.

.... call me sappy, but I'd rather he came home soon

Emperors Faithful wrote:I was talking about the actual aid given itself, not the startling difference in living standards.
I agree that it would be fairly hard to do so if the majority of the populace truly believed that the rest of the world was that much better off.

Yeah, that's the part that's hard to know. You see a lot of talk that they're told that NK is a garden spot compared to the rest of the world. On the other hand, groups do smuggle people out. Which would indicate at least some recognition on the part of the populace that things are better elsewhere.

Of course, when I see mass starvation all around me, I know I'd probably roll the dice too even if I was told SK was a radioactive wasteland.

Of course, I have no real way of knowing that North Korea isn't actually better off than us. Maybe our beloved western propoganda is also working its magic?

I mean, Kim Jong-Il's birth was foretold by a sparrow, and he does have the power to control both the weather and time. Clearly we would be fortunate to have such a splendid being as our own leader.

Is that why he wears what looks like women shoes?

gorgon wrote:Yeah, that's the part that's hard to know. You see a lot of talk that they're told that NK is a garden spot compared to the rest of the world. On the other hand, groups do smuggle people out. Which would indicate at least some recognition on the part of the populace that things are better elsewhere.

Of course, when I see mass starvation all around me, I know I'd probably roll the dice too even if I was told SK was a radioactive wasteland.

There's an active black market of goods smuggled across the Chinese border, most people know things are better outside.

KingCracker wrote:Is that why he wears what looks like women shoes?

It's those sunglasses that make me question his status as a living God.

sebster wrote:

There's an active black market of goods smuggled across the Chinese border, most people know things are better outside.

Most wanted item on N. Korean Black Market:

sebster wrote: It's those sunglasses that make me question his status as a living God.

In reality, Glorious Leader is a frat boy who somehow landed in N. Korea 30 years ago after a drunken party at a local sorority. His kunning disguise:

Gwar! wrote:Now, I am no War Lawyer, but isn't torpedoing each other generally considered an act of war?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8589507.stm

Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years

LunaHound wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Now, I am no War Lawyer, but isn't torpedoing each other generally considered an act of war?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8589507.stm

Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years

Sooo....China has been attempting to fire A missile at Taiwan for years? Wow. Good thing we don't have to worry about them getting into space or out-sourcing all our technology to there.

Xyz'r'Xaz'r'Xuz wrote:

Commissar Molotov wrote:The ship sank - as many as 60 S. Korean sailors are missing. Still not sure what caused the hull breach.

Betcha Elliot Carver is behind all of this...

Always good to see another Bond fan.

LunaHound wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Now, I am no War Lawyer, but isn't torpedoing each other generally considered an act of war?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8589507.stm

Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years

At least cite a source when claiming that china is firing ordinance into something it considers a peaceful breakaway province that it's heavily invested in economically.

WarOne wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Now, I am no War Lawyer, but isn't torpedoing each other generally considered an act of war?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8589507.stm

Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years

Sooo....China has been attempting to fire A missile at Taiwan for years? Wow. Good thing we don't have to worry about them getting into space or out-sourcing all our technology to there.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/china/china-taiwan.html

LunaHound wrote:

WarOne wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Now, I am no War Lawyer, but isn't torpedoing each other generally considered an act of war?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8589507.stm

Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years

Sooo....China has been attempting to fire A missile at Taiwan for years? Wow. Good thing we don't have to worry about them getting into space or out-sourcing all our technology to there.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/china/china-taiwan.html

So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.

Am I the only one with this oppinion on the matter?

Let them nuke each other and be done with it so they can start doing something good? They are obviously not going anywhere as it is.

Soladrin wrote:Am I the only one with this oppinion on the matter?

Let them nuke each other and be done with it so they can start doing something good? They are obviously not going anywhere as it is.

Yes. You are the only one with that opinion on the matter. Or at least you're placed pretty firmly in the camp of people that don't really have any idea what's going on.

ShumaGorath wrote:So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.

Because this wont be the first time i think whether i should waste my time or bother giving you a total detailed record between Taiwan and China mainly from
1995- 2006 , just to have you say something like " sorry i dont read moon language"

Read it yourself , very detailed incidents , dont understand? babel fish it or something.
But dont make a fool out of yourself again by claiming something didnt happen because one N.American student doesnt know
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Category:%E5%8F%B0%E7%81%A3%E6%B5%B7%E5%B3%BD%E5%85%A9%E5%B2%B8%E9%97%9C%E4%BF%82

No recently I don't i have to give you that. But seriously they have been pointing guns for so long it's getting boring... Sorry for the over simplistic view of the thing, not meant to offend anyone. Also, if what I said does happen, I hope they get the Soldiers outta there.

But yea in all reality, offcourse I hope it'll be a peacefull solution...

Soladrin wrote:Am I the only one with this oppinion on the matter?

Let them nuke each other and be done with it so they can start doing something good? They are obviously not going anywhere as it is.

No, there's a few of you out there and typically one of your kind will pop into these kinds of threads.

Most us work with the assumption that it's bad when people die and really bad when lots of people die so nuclear destruction is the worst possible result. As a result when people like you post things like that we shake our heads and move on with the conversation, so if that makes you feel like you're being dismissed but what else can we do?

I'd call this move:

The Korean War 2: Kim Jong Il Rises From the Sea

It's not like I think it's a good thing, but there just doesn't seem to be much of a peaceful solution coming out of it.

And the nuking is an exaggeration, sorry for that. IMO nukes shouldn't even exist.

My apologies for putting a stain on this thread.

Because this wont be the first time i think whether i should waste my time or bother giving you a total detailed record between Taiwan and China mainly from
1995- 2006 , just to have you say something like " sorry i dont read moon language"

If you can't find articles concerning chinese aggression against taiwan in something other than that weird moon language than you either aren't trying very hard or such things don't actually exist. For reference I understand the concept of sino-taiwanese cross straight relationships likely better than you do, and it's not hard to find english versions of those exact same wiki articles. Wikipedia pages are commonly translated into nearly all major languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-Strait_relations

I'm sure you like to revel in being able to speak a foreign language, but don't act like languages are a crutch for the people you argue with. Or at least when you do, try and support your points beyond just posting something in a foreign tongue to veil your lack of actual examples.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Because this wont be the first time i think whether i should waste my time or bother giving you a total detailed record between Taiwan and China mainly from
1995- 2006 , just to have you say something like " sorry i dont read moon language"

If you can't find articles concerning chinese aggression against taiwan in something other than that weird moon language than you either aren't trying very hard or such things don't actually exist. For reference I understand the concept of sino-taiwanese cross straight relationships likely better than you do, and it's not hard to find english versions of those exact same wiki articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-Strait_relations

I'm sure you like to revel in being able to speak a foreign language, but don't act like languages are a crutch for the people you argue with. Or at least when you do, try and support your points beyond just posting something in a foreign tongue to veil your lack of actual examples.

Your link is 1 page , that discribes like what , 1% of what happend.

Take the last link i give you , its compiled with ALL the events , babel fish it.
Im going to post the link with most info , if it happens to be not in english , translate the stupid pages.

Its not that hard. Search what? an english one? like the one you posted? thats not enough info.

One thing to know about Shuma: its best to not bother arguing with him. He will tear your argument apart ad make you look like an ass while he does it.

Corvus wrote:One thing to know about Shuma: its best to not bother arguing with him. He will tear your argument apart ad make you look like an ass while he does it.

He cant, he is better skilled than me at arguing , this is 200% true.
But as skilled as he is , i still have the advantage of knowing true info.

Just like the last time he argued the chinese products in asia , what can he do? nothing.
he claimed nothing much happend , i gave him links to like 5 different news channels , with news spanning between time period
of 4 years. What did shuma do?

"i dont understand mandarin"

I ^ mean ok , sigh w/e why do i bother with someone like that? i shouldnt.

In addition , this all takes places in Taiwan , which is pretty much the epicenter of the events.
Where else can you find more in depth and complete info and records then from Taiwan?
compared to some random n.american wiki? You cant. But he insist on dismissing the direct info
from the source , because " i cant read it"

So you know what shuma? You win , you win because you argue better , or frankly because i suck at arguing.
But i bet you anything people like kidkyoto that can read the language / link i give will 100% know why the war will always exist.
And you can stay in your little world that nothing happened.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm sure you like to revel in being able to speak a foreign language, but don't act like languages are a crutch for the people you argue with. Or at least when you do, try and support your points beyond just posting something in a foreign tongue to veil your lack of actual examples.

My point: dhsGdhSGnzdsgs gsrs SGsGsgfds sgsg s s sgsrtwY Heyawe edh zdh d

Example:



Translated:

Gibberish is hard to understand, especially when it is causing you to go insane and unable to render coherent thoughts.

Nice try trolls , but i already told you bunch of times , use babel fish:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

eh well i didnt see that part. I just remember Shuma tearing apart some fool who tried to say that al-Qaida and the Taliban are "freedom fighters" and not terrorists. I lol'd.

And in respect to this thread, the Koreas are constantly having incidents like this. Sniper fire across the DMZ, insane rhetoric from Pyongyang, naval clashes, sabatoge, kidnappings, etc (most of it perpetrated by the North). Sometimes when VIPs visit the DMZ, the North Korean guards moon them and heckle them from their guardposts. Bottom line, the Koreas are still at war, but neither side is willing to escalate into open fighting, at least not yet. However, as Kim Jong-Il's health continues to deteriorate, I would not be surprised to see increased "incidents" as he tries to direct attention away from the fact that the North Korean people's "Great Father" is dying.