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Actually, subjectively speaking it feels like the Dark Angels, even as they are now, are much more divergent than Blood Angels from C:SM. At least to me anyway. BA are kindof a mishmash of various things which don't feel TAHT different from C:SM-- they could have added in some simple rules to convert C:SM to C:BA.

Does anybody else think its ridiculous that SM get chapter specific codex's that take updating time away from other races? Why can't they just make a special chapter codex that has chapter specific rules / special characters for each one? This is craziness... it just makes the most recently updated chapters OP and the old ones terrible (BA and SW are amazing now and DA and BT suck)

final_boss325 wrote:Frankly I find the notion of the DA being added to the vanilla marine dex insulting to the highest degree. Having been a DA player since 3rd edition and read every book in which theyve even been mentioned, I disagree whole-heartedly about them being added to the vanilla dex. The fact that their current codex is nothing but a pale version of the C:SM codex should suggest that they be given the same amount of attention as the BA, and SW. They deserve their own codex, sure their current one is bland, but if you'll remember back the the BA PDF, they were pretty bland too. Now they've got Deep-Striking landraiders, librarian dreadnoughts, and completely unique and utterly fluffy lists compared to their 4th ed pdf. The same should happen for the DA. I honestly think all the "just add em to the vanilla marine 'dex" talk is stemming out of the fact that their current dex is bland. Their refusal to accept any help, unless it's completely unavoidable, combined with their loner nature, means that it doesnt make any sense for them to be in the C:SM. They are supposed to be just as unique an army as the BA, GW just refuses to do them justice.

They deserve their own codex. They NEED their own codex. Anything else is unacceptable, and any DA player worth a damn would agree with me.

No offense, and I mean that sincerely, DA players are not entitled to anything. If you had your characters and could build competitive 5th Ed lists that fit the fluffy style then you should happy.

Above you make the argument that because SW and BA got love, that DA should too. Ummm that is not a reason. You are showing with you lack of reasons for a DA specific dex that they are simply not unique enough, given the breadth of the nilla dex, to warrant their own.

DA and BA use to be combined in Angels of Death, but I guess someone up in GW thought that two books means twice the sales, so they got split ever since the third edition. The over flanderization of the normal marines and Space Wolves really overshadowed the DA's individuality. Templars were a special Campaign Chapter made for Armaggedon that eventually got promoted to full Codex book chapter. (this is kind of ironic, since they are the only successor chapter to get their own codex). Personally Black Templars can be easily done with a few modifications to the standard SM codex. Just include a few special characters and give Combine Squads (from the Guard codex) to Tact and Scout squads in exchange for Chapter Tactics. Space Wolves are forgiven since they are much more than just an "offshot" of a SM army, and share little in common with the standard SM army.

I don't want a codex because BA and SW have one (but i feel that GW owe this to DA players) ...
I just want the opportunity to play a competitive and characteristic army... that's all... make a f°*§ing pdf, all right!!!

Anyway I'm not here to discussa about GW management but about weird fantasies on DA possible rules!!!
Slow and purposeful and 5++ for inner circle!!!!!
hit and run for RW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not so much that their current Codex is bland, it's just the Dark Angels don't seem that divergent. What are their main differences from Codex Marines?
- Deathwing
- Ravenwing
- Prevalence of ranged combat and plasma
- Interrogator Chaplains (who some have said shouldn't be on the field of battle)

that's roughly it. Blood Angels have:
- Red Thirst
- Close Combat
- Deep Strike
- Death Company
- Fast Vehicles
- Sanguinary Guard
- Baal Predator
- Storm Raven

You realize how little blood angels differed from normal SM before their new codex or the PDF army list for that matter? Dark Angels could be rolled back into normal SMs, or they could be made more different. But trying to argue that they should be rolled back in with SM based on the most recent BA codex just seems like a weak argument

Volkov wrote:

It's not so much that their current Codex is bland, it's just the Dark Angels don't seem that divergent. What are their main differences from Codex Marines?
- Deathwing
- Ravenwing
- Prevalence of ranged combat and plasma
- Interrogator Chaplains (who some have said shouldn't be on the field of battle)

that's roughly it. Blood Angels have:
- Red Thirst
- Close Combat
- Deep Strike
- Death Company
- Fast Vehicles
- Sanguinary Guard
- Baal Predator
- Storm Raven

You realize how little blood angels differed from normal SM before their new codex or the PDF army list for that matter? Dark Angels could be rolled back into normal SMs, or they could be made more different. But trying to argue that they should be rolled back in with SM based on the most recent BA codex just seems like a weak argument

That's the thing for me though, for Blood Angels, there was a lot of scope to make them more different. They fight in the kind of fast, brutally close combat manner that the Space Marine codex could never have catered for. Add onto this the 'special rules'/twists of Red Thirst/Black Rage and Over-charged STC and I'd argue the Blood Angels do deserve their own Codex. In terms of the variety of play-styles available, I'd say the BA Codex is very good. Fluff-wise its a load of s**t, but that's not what I'm arguing.

Personally, I struggle to see how divergent Dark Angels can be made - or should be made. They fight in a predominantly ranged manner, as do most Space Marine armies. The typical Space Marine play-style is fire-power based, not to the same extent as Dark Angels, but firepower based none-the-less. Similarly, Dark Angels don't really have that many characteristics (in potential game-play) that set them apart. Whilst the Blood Angels have the thirst/rage, Dark Angels are secretive and stubborn, yet the Dark Angels are much more difficult to represent in-game.
Finally, I struggle to see what extra units could be added for the Dark Angels. They can't really have extra veterans (ala Vanguard, Sternguard, Sanguinary) as their veterans are all composed into the Deathwing. Most types of ranged-units are now catered for also. Something along the lines of Deep-striking Land Raiders (facepalm) and Storm-Ravens wouldn't work as Dark Angels aren't so in-your-face. Similarly, they don't use drop-pods or deep-strike as much as other Chapters.
All I can really think of for extra Dark Angels units are:
- Company Veterans
- Mortis Dreadnought
- Plasma-Predator

But to me the Dark Angels can't be made much more divergent and probably shouldn't be. It's in fluff that Dark Angels really differ, not in game terms.


I'm gonna leave this here though, as this thread is about wish-listing rather than arguing whether they should or shouldn't have a Cpdex - I apologise for my earlier hypocrisy - however I do still intend to try my hand at a Dark Angels fan-dex and as I said, I don't think Dark Angels are divergent enough to justify their own Codex, but they don't deserve to be lumped into the Space Marine Codex either. They will get their own Codex, in simple business terms they should, I just don't think they're that divergent in game-play, just fluff. As I said though, let's leave this argument here, eh?

Just Dave wrote:
It's not so much that their current Codex is bland, it's just the Dark Angels don't seem that divergent. What are their main differences from Codex Marines?
- Deathwing
- Ravenwing
- Prevalence of ranged combat and plasma
- Interrogator Chaplains (who some have said shouldn't be on the field of battle)

that's roughly it. Blood Angels have:
- Red Thirst
- Close Combat
- Deep Strike
- Death Company
- Fast Vehicles
- Sanguinary Guard
- Baal Predator
- Storm Raven

Space wolves have:
- Counter-assault/true grit
- Close-quarters
- Lack of subtlety.
- Thunder wolf cavalry (facepalm)
- Wolf Scouts
- Blood Claws
- Long Fangs
- Lone Wolves
- Wolf Guard

In GAME TERMS (which is the main purpose of a Codex, to provide their game rules), I'd argue Dark Angels to be the least divergent.

I don't believe they should be in the 'nilla Codex, I don't believe they quite justify their own Codex either. To me, the lesser of the two evils would be getting their own Codex, but I feel they would do equally well with a PDF.
I do intend to try creating a Dark Angel fandex, but they really aren't that different from Codex marines.

Even so, just remember, there doesn't appear to be any intentions to redo them in the near future either.

As I said, IMO they shouldn't be lumped into the Codex: Space Marines, but they don't quite deserve their own Codex either. Which makes a tricky rock and hard place.

What you just said, just proved my point, not targeting you though. Just because their current dex doesnt show how much they differ from the codex marines, doesnt mean they dont differ radically.

Deathwing, ravenwing, and Int. Chappies might just be all they have now. But the belief is that they should have so much more.

Their current dex is just a poorer 5th edition C:SM with some different special characters and one or two different units. How bout expanding on some of their current units before we add more?

-Since in the vanilla dex they state that the first companies are comprised of Sternguard and Vanguard how about these options for deathwing terminators? Specialist ammo for the sternguard termies, and PW, LC, and Relic Blades for the Vanguard Termies.

-A plasma predator would be awesome.

-Several DA HQ units need reworking. Besides upping their WS to 6, Sammael needs to be an IC. Belial should either a)keep his Sword of Silence and Storm bolter, and give him a few special rules, or b)give him the ability to change his wargear to ANYTHING the terminators can carry. Librarian powers need a revamp. Finally give us back Asmodai and Namaan!!!

As for new units:

-Units of jetbikes for company vets of the ravenwing, extremely fluffy and very unique as far as SM go.

-MORTIS DREADNOUGHT!!! Give us dreadnought options for a gun per dreadnought arm. Two plasma cannons/autocannons sounds great!

As for special rules:

-A newer more beneficial version of Intractable could be done, Stubborn (as we used to be) would be nice. The bikers need Skilled Rider back. And how about a Descent of Angels, or Heroic Intervention style rules for the DW termies?

Just Dave wrote:
Sheesh, it's just a game.

I look at it the same way we Americans look at our football teams. I take this game just as seriously as they take the super bowl. If you don't have the same passion for the game that I do, that's you. No faulting you for it, so dont fault me.

Units of Jetbikes?! I like it and can you say pre-heresy legion counts-as?!

I would really love to see the Dark Angels get some really bad ass special units.
And get vechiles no one can ever use. Like the Storm Raven. As it would make sense as they have to deploy at different locations quickly to kill the Fallen.
And then they also should get some their own land raiders and their own types of Stern guard and their own types of long range bad-asses.

I'm all for them getting some fancy new units, but it clearly states that Sammeal (and successor chapter equivalents) has the only remaining imperial jet-bikes. The Dark Angels can go years at a time without finding any fallen and the Storm Raven is more assault (ramp) based and therefore not so suitable. Finally, Sternguard are veterans whilst Dark Angel Veterans are in the deathwing...

Just Dave wrote:I'm all for them getting some fancy new units, but it clearly states that Sammeal (and successor chapter equivalents) has the only remaining imperial jet-bikes. The Dark Angels can go years at a time without finding any fallen and the Storm Raven is more assault (ramp) based and therefore not so suitable. Finally, Sternguard are veterans whilst Dark Angel Veterans are in the deathwing...

-First, as if fluff has ever stood in GW's way before. Sammael having the only remaining jetbike could be easily retconned. Or the DA techmarines could discover a "breakthrough" that allows them to reverse engineer it. Or, hell, they could discover the plans somewhere, allowing them to build more; worked for the BA and their Storm Raven.

-The 'nilla marine codex states that Sternguard and Vanguard are from the first company, the deathwing is the DA first company. I don't see the issue there.

Because Dark Angel first company is compromised of only Deathwing Terminators. Not Vanguard or Sternguard.

I think the idea of the reverse engineering was covered earlier in this thread, it requires an STC and said STC is gone. Look at page 4 (top).

Just Dave wrote:Because Dark Angel first company is compromised of only Deathwing Terminators. Not Vanguard or Sternguard.

I think the idea of the reverse engineering was covered earlier in this thread, it requires an STC and said STC is gone. Look at page 4 (top).

1. If you'll read my post again, I specifically said Sternguard and Vanguard Deathwing Terminators. Specialist ammo in storm bolters for Sternguard Deathwing Terminators (or they can have combi-weapons, no biggie). And Twin LC, Power Weapons and Relic Blades for Vanguard Deathwing Terminators.

2. Like I said, since when has fluff stopped GW. Look at the new SW codex, and the BA one for that matter. Retconns and rewrites abound. They can always find another STC fluff-wise, who said there was only one?

final_boss325 wrote:-The 'nilla marine codex states that Sternguard and Vanguard are from the first company, the deathwing is the DA first company. I don't see the issue there.

final_boss325 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Because Dark Angel first company is compromised of only Deathwing Terminators. Not Vanguard or Sternguard.

I think the idea of the reverse engineering was covered earlier in this thread, it requires an STC and said STC is gone. Look at page 4 (top).

1. If you'll read my post again, I specifically said Sternguard and Vanguard Deathwing Terminators. Specialist ammo in storm bolters for Sternguard Deathwing Terminators (or they can have combi-weapons, no biggie). And Twin LC, Power Weapons and Relic Blades for Vanguard Deathwing Terminators.

2. Like I said, since when has fluff stopped GW. Look at the new SW codex, and the BA one for that matter. Retconns and rewrites abound. They can always find another STC fluff-wise, who said there was only one?

OK, I've just quoted you and I don't see anything about Sternguard or Vanguard terminators?

People complain enough about the Space Wolf and Blood Angel codex eliminating the need or uniqueness of the Space Marine Codex. Why can't Deathwing just be better skilled Terminators rather than Terminators that have access to everything? Same goes for Raven-wing. I don't think I've ever read anywhere stating Deathwing was the best equipped, just the most skilled. The problem with the Dark Angel codex is that it's not divergent enough, not that it should be even more like the Space Marine Codex.

I personally don't recall that much re-writing of past history within the Space Wolf Codex at-least, I don't own the Blood Angel Codex, but I don't recall any altering of fluff in regards to the heresy-era. None-the-less, I would much rather they didn't make another codex along the same lines as Blood Angels and Space Wolves, lest we see deep-striking Baneblades, Dark Angels riding Angels into battle and Ezekial having stat's akin to a Hive Tyrant.
The Blood Angels and Space Wolves are barely respected as codices due to how OTT they have gone in places, I'd much rather any future codices were 'reasonable' and more in line with the seemingly much more balanced Dark Eldar Codex.

Just Dave wrote:I personally don't recall that much re-writing of past history within the Space Wolf Codex at-least, I don't own the Blood Angel Codex, but I don't recall any altering of fluff in regards to the heresy-era. None-the-less, I would much rather they didn't make another codex along the same lines as Blood Angels and Space Wolves, lest we see deep-striking Baneblades, Dark Angels riding Angels into battle and Ezekial having stat's akin to a Hive Tyrant.
The Blood Angels and Space Wolves are barely respected as codices due to how OTT they have gone in places, I'd much rather any future codices were 'reasonable' and more in line with the seemingly much more balanced Dark Eldar Codex.

Slippery slope much?

I don't see how one minor part of the fluff (Jet bike availability) being rewritten=Super over-the-top stuff like deep-striking landraiders. Really, I'm not a Dark Angels player, but is it that hard to come up with new stuff for them, much like what happened for the Blood Angels codex?

Just Dave wrote:I think a better thing to ask - rather than "should tactical squads be allowed two heavy weapons?" - is "how can we make Dark Angels more shooty without encouraging further Razorback-spam lists?"

An even better question would be: Why are we digging up threads from April?