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I don't hate marines, I play marines. Read the part I just edited into my post. You would lose nothing from how the DA currently are if they were just rolled into C:SM.

I mean if you want the full Wolfclaw Wolfrider Wolfborn treatment, I'm sure you will have grimrobed darkveterans and angelsword midgetriders, but that's just making up new fluff to sell models :/

(Not that new models and fluff is bad but... aren't there plenty of marine chapters with crazy organizations and backgrounds that could use some love?)

It's not a matter of what we would lose by being lumped in with C:SM, it's the fact that we should have so much more. The only reason I see people saying that they should just be added to C:SM is because how craptacular and vanilla their current codex is. I mean the BA used to be exactly like the DA in the fact that they were pretty much a codex chapter with only a few unique units, characters and special rules. And just look at them now! Crazy spectacular amounts of uniqueness in the form of librarian dreadnoughts, the sanguinary guard, and several new heroes. As I said, the current dex of the DA is very bland so adding them to C:SM as they are might not seem like a bad idea in most respects, but the chapter shouldn't be.

Also adding them to the C:SM would allow all the other codex chapters to take the DA characters and units. The C:SM says this is to reflect the chapters working together often. Fluff-wise this makes absolutely zero sense for the Dark Angels. They despise working with other chapters, and prefer to keep to themselves. This is the biggest reason why i believe they should have their own dex.

Alright, well that segways us well to the original topic. What significant changes would make DA as different from Codex Marines as Chaos Marines or Space Wolves?

They have all different units in every slot, with different wargear and options. How would DA have this? What units should DA have that basic marines wouldn't?

Seriously ph34r, gtfo, this is a wishlist thread. We want none of your logic here.

I was asking a serious question, which is the same one as the OP was asking. Is that so wrong? If you have ideas of how DA could be unique and special enough to deserve a codex, post them!

I already did.

Sorry, I guess I was unclear. This thread is not only for you. I was getting the thread back on topic, for everyone. If you don't like that, well...

People say it's fluffy for DA to have plasma. Where is this fluff? Is it in the older codecii? Is it in the novels? All I can go on is what we call the 4th edtion codex.

Where can I look for this fluff everyone talks about? I would like to read up on it.

Someone said about having the DA have different weapons or stuff. So what about an all jet bike squad? Why not? Or is this suppose to be an eldar thing only?

What about DA being able to change the FoC? This can symbolize their strategic genius left down from The Lion himself.

I would like Ravenwing to get some sort of special speeder. Something along the lines of the Tempest (only not sucky).

Stormraven is a given as the chapter is supposed to be able to hunt and quickly relocate. Maybe with a different set of weapon options, and perhaps remove the Assault Ramp to encourage the shooty aspect.

And simply because I have the models....a land speeder command squad.

What I belive they could have is already above...upon further consideration, I've come up with a few more ideas.

- A dreadnought with options for two guns. Basically the polar opposite of the BA Furioso Dreadnought.

- Since C:SM states that Sternguard and Vanguard vets are part of the codex chapters 1st companies, maybe we could get Sternguard Deathwing (Specialist ammo for storm bolters), and Vanguard Deathwing (Assaulting the turn they deep strike)

- I would like to see intractable make its way back. Though I think intractable on Sternguard would be a little over-powered. Even power armored.

- I kind of agree with the idea of taking a second heavy weapon in tactical squads in place of the special weapon.

As far as all the plasma love? The DA were originally the only chapter allowed to take a plasma cannon in their normal tactical squads. And in the 4E codex, its stated that Dark Angels favor plasma weaponry...trading their own safety for increased firepower. The unit of Jetbikes in Ravenwing should be a given.

I don't like the idea of jetbikes.

While it is easily done with a simple retcon of the fluff, it is too much of a retcon for me.

The Master of the Ravenwing is supposed to have the last jetbike that the Dark Angels have.

Davor wrote:People say it's fluffy for DA to have plasma. Where is this fluff? Is it in the older codecii? Is it in the novels? All I can go on is what we call the 4th edtion codex.

Where can I look for this fluff everyone talks about? I would like to read up on it.

Someone said about having the DA have different weapons or stuff. So what about an all jet bike squad? Why not? Or is this suppose to be an eldar thing only?

What about DA being able to change the FoC? This can symbolize their strategic genius left down from The Lion himself.

Did you decide to skip reading the armoury section where it tells about how Dark Angels prefer plasma guns because its extremly powerful and theres a chance they can hurt themselves (strange I know but I havn't got my codex with me at this time)

Personally, I wouldn't mind our land speeders being brought up to 5th ed standard, though keep it so our squadrons can go up to 5 not 3.

Maybe leave the LSS out because it is pilted by scouts and unless they are made veterans of the chapter in scout armour, they wouldn't be in the ravenwing which is where the landspeeders are kept mostly.

A jet bike command squad would be good for Sammel. Seeing as successor chapters just happen to have jet bikes lying around in their armouries, why shouldn't we have more than one.

Plasma cannons on terminators maybe? or some sort of plasma flamer.

Ironwing could be tactical squads with rhinos/ razorbacks included in their wargear and access to a second speical weapon instead of a second or first heavy weapon.

[really wishlisting here now] invunarable save for ravenwing bikers?

Deathwing with
-Combi-Plasma
-Plasma Guns
-Plasma Cannons

[Wish List]

final_boss325 wrote: The unit of Jetbikes in Ravenwing should be a given.

If Jetbike models come out I am going to be soooo pissed that I purchased three Sammaels!

I like this thread a lot actually. I have been asking myself, a non-DA player, what room there is for another loyalist marine dex and this thread shed a lot of light on that. Ph34r makes some really good points but I think they are not really relevant since we know DA love is too strong for GW to allow them to be rolled up into Co:SM. The "Angels of Death" codex didn't even work!!!

All this work on Loyalist Marines rules means that the next CSM incarnation better be WILD!
I am also hoping they can step up the Xenos competition. I WANT Eldar and Dark Eldar to rock. While they are at it, an Exodite section should be included in the Eldar dex.
Hey, I know this is a lot but look at what GW has done with every dex since orks; they are nuts. They have done things many of us probably never thought would be done. And for all intensive purposes that game is still balanced (at least among the new dexes)!

I'm still uncertain as to why the Land Speeder Storm was left out. The ability to take Scouts in Storms would be a bit more in line with an all-Ravenwing army's fluff and an interesting addition to Deathwing.

Mabye keep Scouts Elite, but let them take Storms as a Deticated Trasports

That would be nice, I always liked the idea of helicopter snipers.

Anpu42 wrote:Maybe keep Scouts Elite, but let them take Storms as a Dedicated Trasports

Uh, why?
Unless Dark Angels Scouts are beefed up to the level of Wolf Scouts(in terms of special rules added to them) I see no reason, whatsoever, to have them being Elite.

Dark Angels Scouts are the exact same as the standard C:SM Scouts, just without the options that the latter's got(No Hellfire Shells, no Camo Cloaks, no Land Speeder Storms).

Speaking of which: Why no Scout Bikers either?

Ideally, this is how I would do it:
If you're fielding a Ravenwing army: Scout Squads are Fast Attack, and required to have a Land Speeder Storm as transport(to represent the fact that they're acting as the vanguard and disrupting communications before the main strike) and Scout Biker Squads become Troops along with Ravenwing Support/Speeder Squadrons. Additionally, they can take and hold objectives and are deployed as standard.

If you're fielding a Deathwing army: Scout Squads are Elite/Fast Attack Choices and required to have Teleport Homers. In addition: Deathwing Terminator Squads(both Assault and Tactical) can opt to provided they are not locked in close combat, in their shooting phase, be teleported from their current location to a Scout Squad's location.
However, Deathwing squads can be teleported to a Scout Squad that is currently in close combat's position.

If you're fielding an Ironwing army: Scout Squads are Elites, but count as Troops for the purposes of deployment and the capturing and holding of objectives. Additionally, Scout Squads gain access to Demolition Charges to represent them acting as the forward element and clearing the way for the tanks.

If fielding a standard Dark Angels army: Scout Squads are Troops, with access to Land Speeder Storms and Drop Pods as transports. Weapon options are, as standard. If the army is led by Azrael or Ezekiel, then one squad can be upgraded to a "Huntsman" squad at a points cost, which results in a +1 BS increase and the restriction that the squad be armed with Stalker pattern Boltguns. Additionally, the Huntsman squad gains access to Specialist Ammunition(as per Sternguard Veterans) and cannot take a transport.

That huntsman squad would be pretty stationary, as the stalker pattern boltgun is heavy 2. Basically I just really want a scout squad able to take 2 Land Speeder Storms for Transport....

Rat: That's the point of the Huntsman squad. It's "Veteran" Scouts acting as a firebase.

I don't know, I just don't like the idea of a heavy weapons scout squad. Definately love the look of the Stalker pattern Bolter however but I don't think a squad of them would be that good. Unless of course they get Telion's special rule to pick out dudes from the unit. That would kick a lot of butt.

I don't know, I just don't like the idea of a heavy weapons scout squad.

Thats all I ever used my scouts for, I have a very nice Autocannon scout conversion from back when we could take the autocannon...Dark Angels arent meant to kill things in close combat, they kill them from a distance. Maybe its just the fact my other armies are Tau and Imperial guard so I don't know how to do the whole assault thing


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They have all different units in every slot, with different wargear and options. How would DA have this? What units should DA have that basic marines wouldn't?

The best counter-argument I have to that, is that Blood Angels had even less divergence then Dark Angels, but look what they did with their new codex. If you have the third edition rulebook, look in the appendix for Space Marines. They even make rules for space wolves using the space marine army list. So Space wolves could be rolled into C:SM as well. And I would say space wolves are more different from SM than chaos are. DA could be put into C:SM you would need probably a page of special rules and wargear, but I will be the first to admit it could be done. As others have pointed out, chaos could be rolled in as well needing two pages of special rules instead of one. If you are thinking right now 'that's just stupid' it's funny because that's how I feel about Dark Angels

ph34r wrote:The Master of the Ravenwing is supposed to have the last jetbike that the Dark Angels have.

Thats my point.

BTW, isn't it the last jetbike in the entire empire of Man?

Steelmage99 wrote:

ph34r wrote:The Master of the Ravenwing is supposed to have the last jetbike that the Dark Angels have.

Thats my point.

BTW, isn't it the last jetbike in the entire empire of Man?

No, supposedly the Successor Chapters of the Dark Angels have one each for their variation of the Ravenwing's Master.

I don't understand "lost" technology. Here we have perfectly functional jetbikes in the Imperium; why not reverse engineer the darn thing and make more. Lost technology found again!

Dude, if we gave a modern computer to the people of the 1930's, do you think they'd be able to reverse engineer it? They'd figure out the thing runs on sand, and they might even get to the desktop, but that's about it. It'd go waaaay over their heads.

Reverse engineering more advanced technology is soft sci-fi. Only GRIMDARK fiction is allowed.

Deuce11 wrote:I don't understand "lost" technology. Here we have perfectly functional jetbikes in the Imperium; why not reverse engineer the darn thing and make more. Lost technology found again!

Simple:
The Adeptus Mechanicus says that the Omnissiah/Emperor says we can't reverse engineer things. To do so is a heresy.

DarkHound wrote:Dude, if we gave a modern computer to the people of the 1930's, do you think they'd be able to reverse engineer it? They'd figure out the thing runs on sand, and they might even get to the desktop, but that's about it. It'd go waaaay over their heads.

Reverse engineering more advanced technology is soft sci-fi. Only GRIMDARK fiction is allowed.

HUH? How can you reverse engineer tech of the future? That is actual engineering haha. To use your own analogy, we are not giving a modern computer to people of the 1930's we are giving the printing press to people of 21st Century! If the Imperium can manufacture Speeders and Titans and teleportation technology than they still have the capacity to understand the engineering behind a jetbike.

Who's to say that the technology couldn't just be rediscovered and jetbikes for the DA start getting manufactured. It would be an easy fluff retcon and it would be the extremely unique Ravenwing unit the DA need. They wouldn't all be armed like Sammael though. For RW jetbike weapon loadouts i was thinking just twin-linked plasma guns. Maybe the ability to take a melee weapon for the seargeant.