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I was thinking more along the lines of Marine Guide / Doom.

Those seem like great candidates for the DA Libby

Ah. Revising the Dark Angels Codex...something I've been thinking about since the release of C:SM. And with the release of the Blood Angels, I believe we have better insight as to what might be in store for us.

My suggestions for revisions start with the heroes:

General: Make their statlines in common with the ones from C:SM (WS 6 for Company Masters, etc). Give us back Asmodai, and various other named character upgrades for squads.

Azrael: Gosh, do I hate seeing leaders of armies that are not immune to instant death. I mean, if Logan Grimnar, Darnath Lysander, and Marneus Calgar can be immune to instant death, why can't Azrael. Make his artificer armor also protect him from instant death. Aside from that, I think this character is fine.

Belial: I like where they were going with him, but he needs to go in one of two directions. If he's going to have interchangable wargear, I believe he should have all the options available to a captain in terminator armor from C:SM (Taking a combi-bolter with a thunder hammer for example). Or option two, set his wargear in stone, the MC power sword and storm bolter, and give him some special rules. For example, conferring on his unit the ability to assault the turn they deep strike.

Sammael: Personally, I think this one is fine the way he is. Seriously, no complaints.

Ezekiel: My complaints with this character really are just general complaints with the Dark Angels librarians. Our powers need a serious overhaul.

Other Units:

Tactical Squads: Why can't our squads be stubborn and still cost the same as the C:SM squads. If their squads get Combat Tactics, I see no problem in us keeping our cost and gaining stubborn. Also, I agree that a focus on plasma weapons in the form of points discounts should be given.

Company Veterans: While I wish they wouldn't, I'm willing to bet that Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans will replace our Company Veterans.

Ravenwing: Give us back the danged Skilled Rider and Jink save, and keep the cost of the Attack Squadron the same and I believe this sounds fair. I also think that a Jetbike squad could be perfectly reasonable. They could be like the company veterans of the Ravenwing. Plus, it would be a unit to finally attach Sammael on his Jetbike to.

Deathwing: Let's see a divine intervention or descent of angels style rule for our termies! I think this would be both effective and fluffy.

Wargear: I think this has pretty much been covered a million times...so I'll spare you. But I would like to see Dark Angel only wargear options.


Let me know what you think. I've been putting a lot of thought into this.

final_boss325 wrote:Tactical Squads: Why can't our squads be stubborn and still cost the same as the C:SM squads. If their squads get Combat Tactics, I see no problem in us keeping our cost and gaining stubborn. Also, I agree that a focus on plasma weapons in the form of points discounts should be given.

As for plasma weapons, give them a free reroll

You know I have to say, that even though I know this is all pointless wish-listing, it has got me excited to play Dark Angels again...

Sammael: Personally, I think this one is fine the way he is. Seriously, no complaints.

Really?...then allow me to complain. For Sammael on a jetbike, the Raven Sword needs to be s6 again, and he needs to be an independent character. Then he would be perfect. For the Land Speeder, oh how I yearn for rear armour 14, but failing that, have the all seeing eye do something again

Tactical Squads: Why can't our squads be stubborn and still cost the same as the C:SM squads. If their squads get Combat Tactics, I see no problem in us keeping our cost and gaining stubborn.

Except that stubborn is what half of the characters in C:SM replace combat tactics with. I think the old intractable rule would be perfect

Ravenwing: Give us back the danged Skilled Rider and Jink save

I am actually ok with even not having the jink save, given how abundant cover is. Skilled rider is a must

Deathwing: Let's see a divine intervention or descent of angels style rule for our termies! I think this would be both effective and fluffy.

Heroic intervention might be over the top, but they should give us decent of angels with terminators replacing jump packs, and call it decent of angels too

Oh and finally they should make the Watcher in the Dark have a statline and abilities exactly like mephiston

Almost forgot! Apothecarys. Good ones. In terminator armor and on bikes. Models would be nice too (terminator that is, bike is easy to do)

Why the Plasma love? I haven't read much on DA fluff.

Zarake wrote:Why the Plasma love? I haven't read much on DA fluff.

Back in 3rd ed, Dark Angels were the only Space Marines who could have plasma cannons in tactical squads. They also featured prominently on the DA codex cover at the time.

EDIT: Also, Dark Angels are the first legion, so it makes sense for them to have more old tech, like plasma.

DAaddict wrote:With now the oldest marine codex - along with the Templars. I would like to discuss thoughts on Dark Angels being revisited.

I believe you are forgetting the Grey Knights. They hanv't been updated since 3rd edtion.

What I would like to see in a new DA codex? I want to see more fluff. I want to see new fluff. I want to see the fluff I keep hearing about that was in Angels of Death codex but was never in the 4th edtion codex.

I want to see the DA to be able to do everything. Deathwing, Ravenwing, Greenwing, and Ironwing. I just learnt about this about the DA. I probably would never use it, but I would love to have the options for it. I was surprised that DA had an Ironwing force. (maybe it's called something else, I can't remember the name now, suppose to be all mechinzied I believe or a mixture of vechicles and Greenwing)

I would love to field an all Fallen Army. Just like there Radical and Puritan forces for the Inquisitors, have something like that for DA. Have your DA side and then have your Fallen Side. Would love to have more fluff about Cypher and have him a IC that is playable. Cypher should have a weapon skill of like 7 or 8. He is suppose to be on of the best shots in the universe. Make him have it. Put out a new Cypher mini.

Have a rule or rules that is about "Hunt the fallen".

Not shure where all this Plasma love is for DA, lots of DA players say they don't need to be an all Plamsa army. So not shure if DA should be an all Plasma shooting army.

I don't care about having the same SS as regular SM. But make us disticnt. OH I hear everyone say now that the DA are suppose to be an Astartes Chapter. If I am reading the fluff corectly, that is not true. They look like they adhere to what MR Gulliman layed out, but secretly they don't. The DA didn't want to start another SM vs SM war again so it looked like they conceded. Just because the SM codex has better toys dosn't mean DA should have the exact same ones. We are just suppose to look like a regular codex but infact is not. So maybe having a few rules that SM codex has but not all of them. Make DW more unique. Make RW more unique that what is in the SM codex. What ever happened to them being skilled riders? Maybe have a rule where they can reroll when driving through rough or dangerous terrian or something like that. If we can't have the same SS, let the DA be able to field lots of Artifcer armour. We are suppose to have chapter of over 5000 men strong. (Of course broken into other chapters that don't look like DA so they look like they are a standard chapter) Just because they look like a standard chapter dosn't mean they have to fight like one. If anyone sees the DA acting differently, you think they will be alive long enough to say anything or be mind wiped.

Let the DA play differently. Let us have different units. Let them have named charcater Inerigator Chaplin. Bring back some of the old ICs.

Let the Watchers in the Dark minis mean something. By that, they don't get involved, but maybe confer some bonuses or something? Like if they get in the way, the models are moved but confer a bonus like feel no pain or be able to reroll what ever.

Have our Libraians be better. Please give the DA some good psychic powers. Nothing stupid like draw a line 24" and everything dies or something ridiculous like that. Make 'Zeke a powerfull psyker.

Just make them different and please don't make them the play test version for 6th edtion SM.

1) Hunt the Fallen was a lame rule, no matter how amazingly fluffy it was. That's also why Interrogator Chaplain Asmodai was removed from the Dark Angels codex--fluffwise, he's a secretive character who's not meant to inspire or bolster the Battle-Brothers. He's a symbol of fear that is intended to make the Fallen cry like little girls if they think the Dark Angels are after them.

2) They are, in fact, a very Codex Chapter. The divergence is in the Deathwing and Ravenwing.
That's the only divergence, really.

The Successor Chapters you mention as part of the Dark Angels' strength are not exclusive to the Dark Angels. The difference, however, lies in the fact that all the Inner Circles across all the Unforgiven Chapters seem to be directly initiated by the Dark Angels and bound to follow their orders(look at the Vraks campaign book from FW for an example. The Dark Angels had other commitments and Azrael had one of their Successors intervene on their behalf), whereas the other parent Chapters pretty much let the Successors do whatever they want.

3) Artifacts like plasma guns, Tactical Dreadnought Armour and jetbikes have always been a staple of the Unforgiven--mainly because of their role as the First Legion and having been the first to be fully outfitted before the Heresy. Meant they had plenty of spares and mastercrafted weaponry to save for rainy days. Completely okay with them getting a 'unique' Plasma Gun/Cannon setup.

4) Ravenwing and Deathwing could stand being pinnacles of their craft again, but what I would love to see is some uniqueness in how they're employed. Deathwing Terminators being teleported in after the Ravenwing find the targets, or when the fighting on the ground gets the worst? Again--awesome.

5) Scouts. This is a beef I have with all the Marine codexes, barring the Space Wolves one. A 'veteran' Scout unit made up of the veteran Battle-Brothers/Sergeants who lead and train the Scout squads would be excellent.

I know this is not going to hapen, but with the Plasma thing I remeber way back in the day when Plasma Cannons had 2 settings. 1 was the Canon and the other was the old Follow Fire Rules, Lower Str, but more shot and no "Splody" on a One.
It would be cool, but...

Why the Plasma love? I haven't read much on DA fluff.

Dark Angels love plasma, because Dark Angel players love plasma. Art imitating life or some such

Zarake wrote:Why the Plasma love? I haven't read much on DA fluff.

To tell you the truth, I really don't want to see any successor chapter named-characters. I've always liked the idea of "Hey! You want to play a DA successor? That's cool. Just make up a paint scheme and rename the characters!" Because personally I hate seeing the Flesh-Tearers Chapter Master leading an all BA force. I don't care how often they work together. It's like Shrike leading an Ultramarines company...just paint them to be friggin Raven Guard for fething sake.

Uh what? That rant makes no sense.

As a life long DA player, I approve this thread.

First and foremost, I want hunt the fallen back. Its a HUGE part of the army and for no reason should it have been taken out. And on that note make DA Chaplin's the focus, and bring back Asmodai.

I completely agree that DA should be a shooty army. We have enough assault armies.

Plasma Tech has been another staple of DAs for as long as I remember. I still take plasma guns in abundance, and when people ask why, I tell em its fluffy.

We need unique units like the Wolf Guard and Gold Nipple Guard of other chapters. I have never seen a use for the DA vets as thats what the Deathwing are. Again agree with ravenwing being DA's vanguard.

Grabbing the Mortis Dread from FW rules. GW has done it before with drop pods and other units, no reason they cant do it here.

As lame as it sounds I want the rivalry between space wolves and DA back.

Someone said something about cypher and the fallen list, I love it, but a part of me wants them to stay chaos.

Scouts need to stop being elite, unless they bring naamaan back. they brought damn tyco back from the grave they can bring him.

But alot of the ideas brought up here where great, just wish GW read em.

I love the 2 heavy weapons to a tac squad idea. Make the second in place of the Special. So you could combat squad into two 5-man las or missile teams, but at the cost of melta/flamer goodness.

I really like the idea of giving Descent of Angels to Deathwing too.

A point-break on Plasma would be a great nod to the older versions of the list.

Intractable would be great to have back. Another great combo would be if they kept Combat Tactics but added the ability to Rally within 6" of the enemy. This would make them the masters of Combat Tactics and allow them the option to run away from a fight (assuming they won the Sweep roll-off) and then immediately shoot the unit which broke them, even with their heavy weapons.

Dev squads obviously need to go down to BA/SW costs.

My honest suggestion? Remove codex Dark Angels, roll them into the new Space Marine book. Honestly, the only thing different about Dark Angels is that:

1. They are kinda shady around the Inquisition.
2. They like plasma weapons a bit more than normal.
3. They field 2 companies in large chunks on the battlefield.
4. They wear dresses.

Make a bunch of special characters, take plasma weapons, have the special characters give you terminator and bike troops, model your troops wearing dresses. Done.

ph34r wrote:My honest suggestion? Remove codex Dark Angels, roll them into the new Space Marine book. Honestly, the only thing different about Dark Angels is that:

1. They are kinda shady around the Inquisition.
2. They like plasma weapons a bit more than normal.
3. They field 2 companies in large chunks on the battlefield.
4. They wear dresses.

Make a bunch of special characters, take plasma weapons, have the special characters give you terminator and bike troops, model your troops wearing dresses. Done.

They only look like that now because of what they did to the latest codex. Go back to 3rd edition and they where a very different army with their own unique rules.

By the logic you have given, why dont we do that for all marine armies? Even Chaos? Chaos doesnt look that much different from C:SM save for the oblits and the defiler. Blood angels and Space Wolves where the same way until their recent codex updates.

They only look like that now because of what they did to the latest codex. Go back to 3rd edition and they where a very different army with their own unique rules.

By the logic you have given, why dont we do that for all marine armies? Even Chaos? Chaos doesnt look that much different from C:SM save for the oblits and the defiler. Blood angels and Space Wolves where the same way until their recent codex updates.

There is a 4th edition Dark Angel Codex? (Hint: I am in denial. My gaming group lets me use the 3rd ed min-codex on top of the 5th ed SM codex. It works pretty well except you need to patch up the absence of an armoury in the 5th SM codex) But Blood angels were less different then DA were. Prior to the most recent codex they were basically crazy marines that could have jump packs for their command squad, and a dreadnought with two CCWs, but even then its hard to encapsulate all that with a special character who changes some rules. Ravenwing and Deathwing are supposed to be as different from their counter-parts as Death company are from theirs, so removing uniqueness really destroys the feel of the army. Not to mention that if they do roll them in with SM I guarantee you I will be that crusty bastard 10 years from now that still bitches that they did that, along side wanting squats back

Plasma Tech has been another staple of DAs for as long as I remember. I still take plasma guns in abundance, and when people ask why, I tell em its fluffy.

It is kind of funny how it is assumed DA are plasma-philes, but it really isn't stated anywhere. I take plasma on everything that can take it in my army

Bolter Drill (i.e. reroll failed bolter gun hits) for Tactical Squads. Reflects their semi veteran status and the shootiness of DA.

It is kind of funny how it is assumed DA are plasma-philes, but it really isn't stated anywhere.

Actually in the wargear section of the 4E DA codex, under one of the plasma weapons (I forget which one), it states that DA do favor plasma. Favoring their higher firepower at a cost of their own safety.

combatmedic wrote:

ph34r wrote:My honest suggestion? Remove codex Dark Angels, roll them into the new Space Marine book. Honestly, the only thing different about Dark Angels is that:

1. They are kinda shady around the Inquisition.
2. They like plasma weapons a bit more than normal.
3. They field 2 companies in large chunks on the battlefield.
4. They wear dresses.

Make a bunch of special characters, take plasma weapons, have the special characters give you terminator and bike troops, model your troops wearing dresses. Done.

They only look like that now because of what they did to the latest codex. Go back to 3rd edition and they where a very different army with their own unique rules.

By the logic you have given, why dont we do that for all marine armies? Even Chaos? Chaos doesnt look that much different from C:SM save for the oblits and the defiler. Blood angels and Space Wolves where the same way until their recent codex updates.

Dark Angels are the least divergent from vanilla Space Marines and could easily be rolled into C:SM. Blood Angels are supposedly a codex chapter but are pretty out there. Space Wolves are very non-codex. I have been playing since 3rd edition, I know what Dark Angels were like. They could take plasma cannons in tactical squads, deathwing/ravenwing, special characters, and I don't remember what else.
Chaos is supposed to have so much more divergence from vanilla Space Marines that I am appalled that you even considered it a viable argument.

ph34r wrote:
Chaos is supposed to have so much more divergence from vanilla Space Marines that I am appalled that you even considered it a viable argument.

And I am appalled at your previous statement of making the army Iv been playing for 12 years a side note in the next marine codex. So I can only assume we feel the same way on this matter. Chaos is SUPPOSED to be different, just like space wolves, blood angels, and dark angels SHOULD be different from vanilla, but at one point they where not.
But If I must I will throw out why the CURRENT chaos codex is so like the CURRENT Vanilla codex.

Chaos Lords=Chapter Masters
Chaos Sorcerer= Liberian
Havoc Squad= Dev squad
Chaos Terms= Termies
Chaos Raptors= Assault Marines
1k Sons= Nerfed Sternguard with a invurn save
Berserker= Assault equipped Vanguard Marines
Noise Marines= another slightly nerfed Sternguard
Rhino, Pred, LR= Same

I mean yea Chaos has a few different units like the oblits, "generic" daemons, and defilers, and to be honest I couldn't really find a comparison for the plague marines except really slow bikers, so excluded them.

Do I think this is fair for Chaos player? No. But the fact is, by your logic you gave before, that any army that resembles another army in its current codex form, should just be rolled into one single codex the next time around.

combatmedic wrote:

ph34r wrote:
Chaos is supposed to have so much more divergence from vanilla Space Marines that I am appalled that you even considered it a viable argument.

And I am appalled at your previous statement of making the army Iv been playing for 12 years a side note in the next marine codex. So I can only assume we feel the same way on this matter. Chaos is SUPPOSED to be different, just like space wolves, blood angels, and dark angels SHOULD be different from vanilla, but at one point they where not.
But If I must I will throw out why the CURRENT chaos codex is so like the CURRENT Vanilla codex.

Chaos Lords=Chapter Masters
Chaos Sorcerer= Liberian
Havoc Squad= Dev squad
Chaos Terms= Termies
Chaos Raptors= Assault Marines
1k Sons= Nerfed Sternguard with a invurn save
Berserker= Assault equipped Vanguard Marines
Noise Marines= another slightly nerfed Sternguard
Rhino, Pred, LR= Same

I mean yea Chaos has a few different units like the oblits, "generic" daemons, and defilers, and to be honest I couldn't really find a comparison for the plague marines except really slow bikers, so excluded them.

Do I think this is fair for Chaos player? No. But the fact is, by your logic you gave before, that any army that resembles another army in its current codex form, should just be rolled into one single codex the next time around.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to shut down your argument. Here we go:
How are Dark Angels different than Codex Marines?
1. Belial and Deathwing organization. Just put him in C:SM
2. Sammael and Ravenwing organization. Same deal
3. Interrogator chaplain. IMO all space marines should have access to higher level chaplains anyway.
4. DA Chief Librarian. Just include as special character in C:SM

Other differences: essentially none. They were slightly different back in 3rd edition, but not much.

How are Chaos Marines different than Codex Marines?
Right now, not that much. The current book sucks big time, and everyone knows this or didn't play in 3rd edition. However even in its current terrible form it is more different than "2 special characters that give you army organization choices, and 2 other characters"
Going by the maximum rules represented for chaos, there already exists the following different than Codex Marines:
1. Daemon princes
2. Greater Daemons
3. Tactical squad special weapons/wargear/size/icons
4. Cult marines
5. A dozen types of daemon. Current book contains only one crappy daemon.
6. Raptors are essentially Assault Marines, I'll give you that. However, they can/could still take marks.
7. Havocs are basically devastators, but special weapons, and again marks. Also different heavy weapon options.
8. Defilers
9. Crazed Dreadnoughts
10. Obliterators
11. Vehicle upgrades
12. the list goes on...

Even the current Chaos codex, which is a terrible shell of its former self, has more rules to make it different than Codex Marines than Codex Dark Angels. Codex Dark Angels could function at 100% the same as 4 characters and some organization unlocks in Codex Marines.

Dark Angels are supposed to be a strict Codex Astartes following chapter. Their defining traits are hunting the Fallen, not liking the inquisition, having a slight preference for plasma weapons, and fielding different organizations. They don't need the Space Wolf-esque treatment of getting darkclaws and angelriders and darkbane shadowangel the special crazy character. They are Codex. All of their rules could be represented perfectly within Codex: Space Marines.

Ph33r, the same argument holds equally for Blood Angels. They're both (historically) pretty close to the Codex: Astartes, certainly moreso than Space Wolves. Back in 2nd edition they literally shared a codex (Angels of Death) and their 3rd edition codices were about equally divergent from codex: SM.

The current approach from GW is to flesh out the popular subchapters with more unique units, special rules, and characters, and honestly I think that's a good thing. While I'd prefer more love be given to the Xenos, we know GW needs to pimp their main cash cow (SM), and if they're doing that, it's certainly cooler if the various SM dexes actually play differently from one another and from C:SM.

Given what GW has done with the BA, I think it's absolutely reasonable and appropriate for DA fans to hope for similar treatment.

Interrogator Chaplains don't take to the field except for extreme circumstances.
They are not for combat, outside of going after The Fallen.
They are not for inspiration.

They're the embodiment of fear to The Fallen who actually feel fear. Their main role is to do nothing but hang back at The Rock and extract confessions of repentance from The Fallen--with the secondary role of accompanying strike forces going after highly prolific Fallen who've shown up on the Unforgiven's radar.

But also, you neglected to mention(apparently), that the current Dark Angels codex is what they used as a sort of "field test" for the current Space Marines codex.

DA are WAY more divergent than BA. I am looking at the old 3rd edition books right now. DA were the only ones that fielded some form of unique army. Minus DC, which are essentially crazy ASM squads, they didn't offer much. Oh, and Furioso Dreads and Baal Preds as well.

DA were an amazing list I thought, one of the coolest, and darkest chapters. Then, the steamy loaf DA codex emerged in 4th edition that ruined it for everyone.

To say that the DA should have just been lumped into C:SM i find a little offensive, if a little ignorant (no offense). They are NOT a strict codex chapter. Their first and second companies operate completely different from how the C:SM ones do. That alone says why they deserve their own codex. Add in the fact that, they have their own special units (Jetbikes, the Mortis Dread, the Land Raider Ares), coupled with their own special tactics is just icing on the proverbial robed cake.

Mannahnin wrote:Ph33r, the same argument holds equally for Blood Angels. They're both (historically) pretty close to the Codex: Astartes, certainly moreso than Space Wolves. Back in 2nd edition they literally shared a codex (Angels of Death) and their 3rd edition codices were about equally divergent from codex: SM.

The current approach from GW is to flesh out the popular subchapters with more unique units, special rules, and characters, and honestly I think that's a good thing. While I'd prefer more love be given to the Xenos, we know GW needs to pimp their main cash cow (SM), and if they're doing that, it's certainly cooler if the various SM dexes actually play differently from one another and from C:SM.

Given what GW has done with the BA, I think it's absolutely reasonable and appropriate for DA fans to hope for similar treatment.

I'm not a fan of codex bloodbloodblood either. I'm sure Dark Angels will be interesting if they get the Space Wolves/Blood Angels treatment, but the resources for a full redesign and many new units could be used for so much more...
And its ph34r, not ph33r

final_boss325 wrote:To say that the DA should have just been lumped into C:SM i find a little offensive, if a little ignorant (no offense). They are NOT a strict codex chapter. Their first and second companies operate completely different from how the C:SM ones do. That alone says why they deserve their own codex. Add in the fact that, they have their own special units (Jetbikes, the Mortis Dread, the Land Raider Ares), coupled with their own special tactics is just icing on the proverbial robed cake.

As someone that has played since early 3rd ed I consider myself non-ignorant and quite informed on this matter. What would you really lose. Think about it. You wouldn't lose your jetbike character. You wouldn't lose Mortis Dreadnoughts. The Land Raider Ares is something they shoved into apocalypse, it isn't some essential piece of Dark Angels lore, its something they made and said "Dark Angels made it". You wouldn't lose Deathwing or Ravenwing. You wouldn't lose anything! What would be bad about it? You wouldn't get robed guys on the cover?

This thread wasn't started to be an "I hate marines" fest. It was started to be a discussion of what we want/can expect from a potentialy new DA codex. If your not here to add to the discussion why bother posting here in the first place.